Should Sanchez Replace Johnson?

[Dick Allen]

Or, for another argument, let's look at what the White Sox/Ventura did with Marcus Semien last year.

 

Sort of the same thing we're arguing about between Johnson and Sanchez right now...which is a demotion or sitting him on the bench for significant periods of time.

 

In the end, Marcus really didn't have that 2-3 month extended look he really deserved, and should have received, in what turned out (and was expected/predicted to be) another long rebuilding season. A lot of those AB's ended up going to Beckham, which got us where exactly?

 

Bonifacio would have been the perfect final addition to a team that was already in playoff contention, but he's actually one sort of "semi-big" contract that serves as an added obstacle for players like Sanchez, Saladino and even Leury Garcia. And I'm starting to get the same feeling about Gordon Beckham as well.

 

 

Ultimately, we're not the Oakland A's and haven't mastered the art of platooning players effectively or optimizing their results.

 

There's no guarantee that Marcus Semien will end up as a long-term answer for the A's at SS, but he certainly wasn't provided a full opportunity in Chicago after he struggled and was overwhelmed early with the high K totals and just making enough contact in general.

I know Robin bashing is a way to get popular on this board, but why don't you at least look at the facts. Semien started 33 of the first 35 games last season, and played 58 out of 64, when Rick Hahn sent him back to Charlotte, and recalled in September.

 

And before you go into the ...but Beckham, or the ...but Ventura crap again, or mention Ubaldo Jimenez, just look it up, you are wrong.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Quin]

I see Sanchez being like Eduardo Escobar and traded mid-season for an improvement.

[LDF]

 

i am of the opinion that the sox FO rushed MJ up, no matter how well he was doing in ST, he still should have gone down. however that didn't happen. so what or how is he doing up to date??

 

everything is going to get thrown out of whack b/c of the loosing. this part needs to be fixed, is replacing 1 player will do it?? i don't think so. will a new manager fix it?? i don't think so.

 

these players needs to get rep's, they need to play thru their slump, while that is being done, MJ is really not being overmatch, i think a good 20 games can maybe give a better idea of him.

[southsider2k5]

We haven't even got to May Day yet, and Johnson isn't really hurting the team as of yet. If the veterans were performing, you wouldn't even notice Johnson so far.

[flavum]

Sanchez - IL Player of the Week

[Lillian]

You bat your best hitter second (or third of you're not familiar with that sabremetric school of thought), Carlos Sanchez is not the team's best hitter.

 

I'm familiar with that argument, but never have been convinced of its validity. Leadoff and #2 hole are specialized roles. They aren't designed for the "best" hitter.

A leadoff guy needs to see pitches, work the count, get on base, and steal if possible. A #2 has to be patient, in order to give the leadoff hitter a chance to steal.

He has to stay out of the double play, execute the hit and run, bunt etc. That's why Abreu would not be a suitable hitter for either of those two spots, even though he is clearly the "best" hitter on the team. I just don't understand that entire argument.

 

I think Carlos is a proficient hitter, from both sides of the plate, and that he is capable of performing the specialized tasks of a #2 hitter. Melky has some pop, and could be a run producer, if he batted further down in the order. Seems like a waste of his talent, to have him taking extra pitches, to protect a would be base stealer.

I'm also pretty sure that bunting is not his strong suit, nor a good use of his talent. I wouldn't mind seeing Cabrera batting right behind Avi, vs LHP, instead of La Roche.

 

Moreover, exactly what is Johnson going to contribute in the #9 hole, that would make him so valuable? He needs to demonstrate an ability to get on base at a higher than average rate, in order to become the big base stealing threat that he has the potential to be.

 

All of that said, I'm convinced that Caulfield is right, and that Micah will benefit from the experience. I'm already discouraged enough about this team's chances for this year, that it makes sense to let him play, and get the experience so that next year, he won't be a rookie.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Lillian

[southsider2k5]

Sanchez as a major leaguer will be a #9 hitter, without a ton of improvement.

[Balta1701]

Sanchez as a major leaguer will be a #9 hitter, without a ton of improvement.

I still look at his numbers and can't help but think "Omar Infante". Full season numbers at Charlotte - high .700s OPS (so say low/mid .700s OPS in the bigs if goes well), 20-ish doubles, 5-ish HR, .275-ish average. Heck, Sanchez even seems to take a few more walks if some of his performance translates.

[Lillian]

Sanchez as a major leaguer will be a #9 hitter, without a ton of improvement.

 

We have to remember that Sanchez won't turn 23 until June. He has made the adjustment, at every level, and become a productive hitter.

I disagree with your assessment, and frankly don't understand upon what you're basing it. I think that he will hit #2, for someone, if not for the Sox.

Of course, we're all just speculating, and non of us are professional scouts.

[southsider2k5]

We have to remember that Sanchez won't turn 23 until June. He has made the adjustment, at every level, and become a productive hitter.

I disagree with your assessment, and frankly don't understand upon what you're basing it. I think that he will hit #2, for someone, if not for the Sox.

Of course, we're all just speculating, and non of us are professional scouts.

 

No power at all means he will never hit in the 3-7 slots. Average-ish speed, to slightly above average speed takes away the 1 slot for me on a team with an Adam Eaton to hit leadoff. While he seems to get his hits, he doesn't take many walks, which tells me he isn't patient, and isn't working deep into counts, which disqualifies the #2 slot for me. With his higher average, I think putting him in front of Eaton as the #9 hitter would be more ideal, with an empty power hitter at #8.

[Eminor3rd]

I'm familiar with that argument, but never have been convinced of its validity. Leadoff and #2 hole are specialized roles. They aren't designed for the "best" hitter.

A leadoff guy needs to see pitches, work the count, get on base, and steal if possible. A #2 has to be patient, in order to give the leadoff hitter a chance to steal.

He has to stay out of the double play, execute the hit and run, bunt etc. That's why Abreu would not be a suitable hitter for either of those two spots, even though he is clearly the "best" hitter on the team. I just don't understand that entire argument.

 

I think Carlos is a proficient hitter, from both sides of the plate, and that he is capable of performing the specialized tasks of a #2 hitter. Melky has some pop, and could be a run producer, if he batted further down in the order. Seems like a waste of his talent, to have him taking extra pitches, to protect a would be base stealer.

I'm also pretty sure that bunting is not his strong suit, nor a good use of his talent. I wouldn't mind seeing Cabrera batting right behind Avi, vs LHP, instead of La Roche.

 

Moreover, exactly what is Johnson going to contribute in the #9 hole, that would make him so valuable? He needs to demonstrate an ability to get on base at a higher than average rate, in order to become the big base stealing threat that he has the potential to be.

 

All of that said, I'm convinced that Caulfield is right, and that Micah will benefit from the experience. I'm already discouraged enough about this team's chances for this year, that it makes sense to let him play, and get the experience so that next year, he won't be a rookie.

 

There's a lot of math that makes/supports the argument, but basically it's this:

 

Q: what's better than a two hitter who is able to be patient and move the runner over? A: a two hitter who gets base hits instead

 

The other thing to remember is that each spot in the lineup gets about 18 extra PA over the course of the season than the previous one. So if you dropped Melky to 6th and replaced him with Sanchez, you're essentially taking 64 plate appearances away from Melky and giving them to arguably the worst hitter in the lineup. That's like 10% of a full season of PA!

 

Now, the Tango math that argued the absolute best hitter should be #2 was based on late steroid-era offensive levels where on base percentage was super high league-wide, and therefore raw ABs was the best way to ensure max offense for a guy, since that guy was probably a monster and since guys were probably on base in front of him. The thing to keep in mind is that his work showed that the #4 slot played a very close second to the #2 hole in terms of RBI chances/raw PA combined, and I wouldn't be surprised if it leans even more that way in the current run environment. At worst, it's close. I wouldn't personally advocate Abreu in the two-hole, but I would much rather see him at 4 than 3, simply because he'd come up to bat with runners on more frequently. Only the leadoff man comes up to bat more frequently with the bases empty than #3.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[caulfield12]

I know Robin bashing is a way to get popular on this board, but why don't you at least look at the facts. Semien started 33 of the first 35 games last season, and played 58 out of 64, when Rick Hahn sent him back to Charlotte, and recalled in September.

 

And before you go into the ...but Beckham, or the ...but Ventura crap again, or mention Ubaldo Jimenez, just look it up, you are wrong.

 

 

And that was enough time in a rebuilding year to make a completely negative assessment on a player and give up on him?

 

I still think you need to give a player 3 months, if not 4.

 

It's one of the many reasons guys like Rowand, Crede, Borchard, Fields, Anderson, etc., have had trouble breaking into the line-up and staying there (lack of patience/we have to win now mentality...major league results >>> development). I'm almost 100% sure that Chris Getz (who's arguably much less capable and lower upside) was given a lot more playing time his rookie season than Marcus Semien.

[Dick Allen]

And that was enough time in a rebuilding year to make a completely negative assessment on a player and give up on him?

 

I still think you need to give a player 3 months, if not 4.

 

It's one of the many reasons guys like Rowand, Crede, Borchard, Fields, Anderson, etc., have had trouble breaking into the line-up and staying there (lack of patience/we have to win now mentality...major league results >>> development). I'm almost 100% sure that Chris Getz (who's arguably much less capable and lower upside) was given a lot more playing time his rookie season than Marcus Semien.

Where is it stated the White Sox had a negative assessment of Marcus Semien? They traded him for a guy they want to give over $100 million.

 

Quit making things up. He was on the major league roster about 3 months and played regularly those 3 months. He was struggling striking out and fielding so they sent him down. It pretty much happens with every team. Even your Royals. Chris Getz did play more games than Marcus Semien his rookie year. He also hit better, got on base more often, stole more bases, fielded his position better, fanned less, and his OPS was only .003 lower. He also was a year older.

 

But you did state Semien did not get 2 or 3 months of consistent playing time , now spinning other names and BS to get away from your lie. Then you used the Ventura and Beckham buzzwords so people would hop on your bandwagon. Nice try. Your claim was totally and completely innaccurate.

 

Wouldn't you at least have to admit it would be hard for Robin to give him consistent playing time when Marcus is in Charlotte? He played him pretty regularly when he was on the roster. But you just can't admit it.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Jake]

Well the answer is no. Sanchez should have started the year at 2B. You have to give Micah a little time now that you've gone with him. It's tough to say how he's played. His defense looks very bad, as expected. He hasn't looked good on the bases, but we haven't seen much of him there and it's quite plausible that he ends up looking good in that regard. His results are mixed enough at the plate that it's hard to take much away from that, either. We have to make him make the decision for us and you just won't know anything after only a couple weeks. The first instance where I'd begin considering a swap between him and Sanchez is once we've hit about the 30 game mark, and in that case only if Micah is clearly just not going to do well this year.

 

We are eager to penalize Sanchez for an allegedly low ceiling - which isn't untrue - but the question is who has the best chance of being good right now. Sanchez is a very good defender so we can rest easy knowing that a worst case in terms of defensive impact from him will be something like league average. While Sanchez doesn't look like he'll ever draw a lot of walks or hit for power, he's been productive everywhere except his age 21 season in AAA, where he wasn't exactly terrible. I think we are really, really overvaluing the difference in baserunning value between the two players, especially when the fast guy was 22/35 in SB last season.

 

I think Micah could be good and he has some of those signs of a guy who will just produce despite meager high-level production. I wouldn't have chosen him over the younger, lower-risk option in Sanchez. I think Micah would have benefited in playing more AAA competition, since we have usually seen him struggle at each level before starting to hit again (though admittedly he's only really hit well in a half-season in A- at age 22 and a month in AA at age 23).

[TaylorStSox]

Johnson will be fine at the plate. I do worry about his defense though. It's just plain bad.

[Jose Abreu]

To me, Sanchez's ceiling is near-elite defense with a .280 average from the 7 or 8 spot, while his floor is solid defense with a .240 average in the 9 hole.

Meanwhile, Johnson's ceiling is good defense with a .310 average with 50+ stolen bases, and his floor is below average defense with a .250 average and 20+ stolen bases.

Higher risk but bigger reward with Micah.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Jose Abreu

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I think Sanchez deserves more of an opportunity than that initial stretch last year after his late season call up. He might have had some rookie jitters. I would rather have him on the bench than Bonifacio.

 

Right, that was my point. It's not like Sanchez is some veteran player who we could have in there instead of Micah. Both are very inexperienced, so why should we assume Sanchez would be any better?

[LDF]

But you did state Semien did not get 2 or 3 months of consistent playing time , now spinning other names and BS to get away from your lie. Then you used the Ventura and Beckham buzzwords so people would hop on your bandwagon. Nice try. Your claim was totally and completely innaccurate.

 

Wouldn't you at least have to admit it would be hard for Robin to give him consistent playing time when Marcus is in Charlotte? He played him pretty regularly when he was on the roster. But you just can't admit it.

 

while i respect yours and caulifield opnions, i have to say 1 major point. Semien really didn't get a fair look, even when given spot time. the main player at that position was Beckham and for some ungodly reasoning that he will still have a chance to put it together. this he did in a matter of 1 month and then failed.

 

i am confident in saying the sox FO still did not want to give up on Beckham until they needed to trade him and open the door to his position.

 

now what i wrote, i do not know if i helped anyone, probably just dug a deeper hole for myself.

 

i can live with that.

[Dick Allen]

while i respect yours and caulifield opnions, i have to say 1 major point. Semien really didn't get a fair look, even when given spot time. the main player at that position was Beckham and for some ungodly reasoning that he will still have a chance to put it together. this he did in a matter of 1 month and then failed.

 

i am confident in saying the sox FO still did not want to give up on Beckham until they needed to trade him and open the door to his position.

 

now what i wrote, i do not know if i helped anyone, probably just dug a deeper hole for myself.

 

i can live with that.

Once again, the facts say you are wrong. Beckham started the year on the DL, and Semien played all but 6 games in the 2 months before he was sent down. He was recalled in September when Sanchez was playing 2B, and Beckham was in California.

 

Here's the thread when he was optioned on June 1, no one was saying he didn't have a fair shot, even Caulfield. He just figured he could blame Robin and Beckham now and gets some mileage out of it.

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92227

Edited April 20, 2015 by Dick Allen

[LDF]

Once again, the facts say you are wrong. Beckham started the year on the DL, and Semien played all but 6 games in the 2 months before he was sent down. He was recalled in September when Sanchez was playing 2B, and Beckham was in California.

 

Here's the thread when he was optioned on June 1, no one was saying he didn't have a fair shot, even Caulfield. He just figured he could blame Robin and Beckham now and gets some mileage out of it.

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92227

 

if i am wrong, i can admit it. Beckham had 390 ab's and in he second link showed his gamelog, which i hate to say tell a different story than what you are saying.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beckhgo01.shtml

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...b&year=2014

 

now Semien only had 231 ab's and here is his game log.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...b&year=2014

 

 

 

 

[LDF]

Once again, the facts say you are wrong. Beckham started the year on the DL, and Semien played all but 6 games in the 2 months before he was sent down. He was recalled in September when Sanchez was playing 2B, and Beckham was in California.

Here's the thread when he was optioned on June 1, no one was saying he didn't have a fair shot, even Caulfield. He just figured he could blame Robin and Beckham now and gets some mileage out of it.

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92227

 

re the bolded, i really don't know what the discussion was and i really hate jumping in middle. i felt that some facts were not correct and this is why i am posting.

 

re Robin, i don't think he was at fault with Beckham, but i think the whole org saw potential and that potential never materialized.

[caulfield12]

Once again, the facts say you are wrong. Beckham started the year on the DL, and Semien played all but 6 games in the 2 months before he was sent down. He was recalled in September when Sanchez was playing 2B, and Beckham was in California.

 

Here's the thread when he was optioned on June 1, no one was saying he didn't have a fair shot, even Caulfield. He just figured he could blame Robin and Beckham now and gets some mileage out of it.

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92227

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id...4/marcus-semien

 

Marcus Semien had a .673 OPS for the month of April and played nearly everyday.

 

What are you reading?

 

Can you not see the May numbers filled with DNP's? THERE ARE 14 (FOURTEEN) OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!! Wonder what his OPS was that month, and why it fell off so precipitously?

 

The reason there was nothing to say is the simple knowledge they were going to jam Gordon Beckham down our throats again and we might as well have him playing everyday in the minors instead of sitting on the bench the majority of time in Chicago and completely losing any offensive rhythm or consistency.

 

He had 42 FREAKING AT-BATS THE ENTIRE MONTH OF MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yet, in the mind of Dick Allen, that was more than a fair determination he wasn't up to snuff. (Could it have something to do with the fact his Boy Wonder was sort of ready to come back then and had already made his magical 822nd swing/mechanical change?)

Edited April 20, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id...4/marcus-semien

 

Marcus Semien had a .673 OPS for the month of April and played nearly everyday.

 

What are you reading?

 

Can you not see the May numbers filled with DNP's? THERE ARE 14 (FOURTEEN) OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!! Wonder what his OPS was that month, and why it fell off so precipitously?

 

The reason there was nothing to say is the simple knowledge they were going to jam Gordon Beckham down our throats again and we might as well have him playing everyday in the minors instead of sitting on the bench the majority of time in Chicago and completely losing any offensive rhythm or consistency.

 

He had 42 FREAKING AT-BATS THE ENTIRE MONTH OF MAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yet, in the mind of Dick Allen, that was more than a fair determination he wasn't up to snuff. (Could it have something to do with the fact his Boy Wonder was sort of ready to come back then and had already made his magical 822nd swing/mechanical change?)

Nice try. How come you weren't saying these things when he was sent down? Afraid to be unpopular? Not once did you mention what you are mentioning now it that thread, but almost 11 months later, now there's a problem and let's blame Soxtalk hot bottons Ventura and Beckham. If you blame those guys, most won't even care if it makes sense or not. He needed to go down. He wasn't ready. He was hitting .218, and very bad playing mostly 3B.

Classic trolling.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Nice try. How come you weren't saying these things when he was sent down? Afraid to be unpopular? Not once did you mention what you are mentioning now it that thread, but almost 11 months later, now there's a problem and let's blame Soxtalk hot bottons Ventura and Beckham. If you blame those guys, most won't even care if it makes sense or not. He needed to go down. He wasn't ready. He was hitting .218, and very bad playing mostly 3B.

Classic trolling.

 

Classic.

 

I'm trolling when you're just making stuff up now.

 

Guess what position he's playing with Oakland now? Hint, it's not 3B.

 

Why do the White Sox insist on playing young players out of position, such as Beckham at 3B or Viciedo having to go through four different position changes in his early career when he should have been allowed to focus on just one or two (at most)?

 

Should I start a thread to second guess every decision ever made so I have an official response you can look up and reference?

 

Should I set my alarm here in China to wake up at 1-3 every morning to chime in when something happens in US time?

 

Now that I think about it, since none of us are working in the front office, why is anyone here qualified to second guess the front office when they were hired to run a professional baseball team to the best of their ability by Jerry Reinsdorf? Can't every single thread just go back and forth debating over this important point?

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Classic.

 

I'm trolling when you're just making stuff up now.

 

Guess what position he's playing with Oakland now? Hint, it's not 3B.

 

Why do the White Sox insist on playing young players out of position, such as Beckham at 3B or Viciedo having to go through four different position changes in his early career when he should have been allowed to focus on just one or two (at most)?

 

Should I start a thread to second guess every decision ever made so I have an official response you can look up and reference?

 

Should I set my alarm here in China to wake up at 1-3 every morning to chime in when something happens in US time?

 

Now that I think about it, since none of us are working in the front office, why is anyone here qualified to second guess the front office when they were hired to run a professional baseball team to the best of their ability by Jerry Reinsdorf? Can't every single thread just go back and forth debating over this important point?

I' m making stuff up? He played mostly 3B with the White Sox. He is a horrible SS.