Attendance 2015

[ptatc]

They "won" the dvision. Using the strike as an excuse is fine, but it's still and excuse. 17th in the league in attendance isn't very good for a team that had been very successful, and supposedly had the "new stadium" vibe to go along with it. The fans of other teams apparently were able to put the strike behind them.

It's an excuse but I think if you looked at all of baseball it was an excuse that year. It was not a "White Sox fan" excuse. I give all fans a pass that year as everyone was angry with baseball.

[Balta1701]

So basically the White Sox need to spend a five to seven year period as the best team in baseball to get fans to show up. That's my point exactly. Sox fans will always have an excuse. If they old ones don't work, they move the bar to a new one. Now Sox fans need a dyntasy type period to show up, as measly playoff births aren't good enough.

 

Nah, I don't see why anyone would think Sox fans are fickle.

And yet, they've still endured a 5 year streak of winning 45% of their games and still are putting 20k fans in the seats. That's a huge change from the early 2000s too.

[Balta1701]

It's an excuse but I think if you looked at all of baseball it was an excuse that year. It was not a "White Sox fan" excuse. I give all fans a pass that year as everyone was angry with baseball.

The White Sox also had the multiple-whammy of JR being supposedly one of the leaders of the owners side pushing it that year and lost a chance to make a WS run the previous year and traded jack McDowell and then finished under .500.

 

That wasn't a pleasant time to be a white sox fan.

[Dick Allen]

It's an excuse but I think if you looked at all of baseball it was an excuse that year. It was not a "White Sox fan" excuse. I give all fans a pass that year as everyone was angry with baseball.

17th in the league in attendance after winning the division in 1993 and being in first place in 1994 with the 4th highest payroll, and supposedly a "new" stadium they are using as the excuse Twins fans draw better than the White Sox despite losing 95.5 games a year the last 4 years, seems like a bigger excuse to White Sox fans than others.

[Dick Allen]

The White Sox also had the multiple-whammy of JR being supposedly one of the leaders of the owners side pushing it that year and lost a chance to make a WS run the previous year and traded jack McDowell and then finished under .500.

 

That wasn't a pleasant time to be a white sox fan.

Lyle Mouton was acquired for Jack McDowell. Please edit your post. I do remember watch a Cubs/Sox preseason game at Wrigley before the season started, the Sox had Kruk and Sabo. Harry and Steve were going on and on about how loaded the Sox were.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Lyle Mouton was acquired for Jack McDowell. Please edit your post. I do remember watch a Cubs/Sox preseason game at Wrigley before the season started, the Sox had Kruk and Sabo. Harry and Steve were going on and on about how loaded the Sox were.

WOW OMG THEY ACQUIRED A 26 YEAR OLD WHO SPENT 1/2 THE SEASON IN CHARLOTTE FOR A CY YOUNG WINNER!!! WHY ON EARTH DIDN'T PEOPLE BUY TICKETS!! QUICK CHECK CHARLOTTE'S ATTENDANCE IN 1995, IT MUST HAVE SKYROCKETED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dick Allen]

WOW OMG THEY ACQUIRED A 26 YEAR OLD WHO SPENT 1/2 THE SEASON IN CHARLOTTE FOR A CY YOUNG WINNER!!! WHY ON EARTH DIDN'T PEOPLE BUY TICKETS!! QUICK CHECK CHARLOTTE'S ATTENDANCE IN 1995, IT MUST HAVE SKYROCKETED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I figured that one would go over your head.

 

The thing is, Black Jack really only had 1 good year after he left. Trading him wasn't a bad idea.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

And the Twins were coming off 99,96, and 96 loss seasons with just the "new stadium".

 

Which is consistent with my argument, which is that ballpark attendance has more to do with the ballpark experience than it has to do with interest in the team, and that divide has grown (and will cotninue to grow) as time goes on and technology continues to evolve.

[Balta1701]

I figured that one would go over your head.

yeah, ok, I'll agree, explain how acquiring Lyle Mouton would sell tickets?

[Dick Allen]

Which is consistent with my argument, which is that ballpark attendance has more to do with the ballpark experience than it has to do with interest in the team, and that divide has grown (and will cotninue to grow) as time goes on and technology continues to evolve.

I have been to both parks. The ballpark experience isn't very different. And I didn't go up there, but I would bet their upper deck is just as far away from the field. If not farther.

[Dick Allen]

yeah, ok, I'll agree, explain how acquiring Lyle Mouton would sell tickets?

Who said he would sell tickets? Frank Thomas was the back to back MVP. The team was in first place back to back years. They couldn't sell as many tickets as 16 other teams.

[southsider2k5]

Which is consistent with my argument, which is that ballpark attendance has more to do with the ballpark experience than it has to do with interest in the team, and that divide has grown (and will cotninue to grow) as time goes on and technology continues to evolve.

 

Except for the White Sox, who need multiple playoffs births in a row to get people to show up.

[Balta1701]

Who said he would sell tickets? Frank Thomas was the back to back MVP. The team was in first place back to back years. They couldn't sell as many tickets as 16 other teams.

I gave reasons why the fanbase would think that team was going to crap. Trading away a cy young winner is a pretty good one. Your response was "But they brought back Lyle Mouton please edit your post", so clearly you think that somehow bringing back Lyle Mouton in a trade should have sold tickets. Explain how? What am I forgetting about Lyle Mouton that would offset trading away a Cy Young Winner to the Yankees?

[southsider2k5]

I gave reasons why the fanbase would think that team was going to crap. Trading away a cy young winner is a pretty good one. Your response was "But they brought back Lyle Mouton please edit your post", so clearly you think that somehow bringing back Lyle Mouton in a trade should have sold tickets. Explain how? What am I forgetting about Lyle Mouton that would offset trading away a Cy Young Winner to the Yankees?

 

Seriously, that was pretty silly.

[Thad Bosley]

So basically the White Sox need to spend a five to seven year period as the best team in baseball to get fans to show up. That's my point exactly. Sox fans will always have an excuse. If they old ones don't work, they move the bar to a new one. Now Sox fans need a dyntasy type period to show up, as measly playoff births aren't good enough.

 

Nah, I don't see why anyone would think Sox fans are fickle.

Oh yes, these "fickle" fans, simply asking for a product worth coming out to support. The nerve! They should be satisfied with averaging a playoff appearance once every seven years (and a very brief one at that) as has been the average during Reinsdorf's 35 years at the helm of this organization, and just get their butts to the ballpark en masse. No excuses, say you, just support whatever collection of misfit toys the team of Reinsdorf/Williams/Hahn put on the field.

 

Put up and shut up, you excuse-laden, fickle fans, you!! That is the message to you!!

[southsider2k5]

Oh yes, these "fickle" fans, simply asking for a product worth coming out to support. The nerve! They should be satisfied with averaging a playoff appearance once every seven years (and a very brief one at that) as has been the average during Reinsdorf's 35 years at the helm of this organization, and just get their butts to the ballpark en masse. No excuses, say you, just support whatever collection of misfit toys the team of Reinsdorf/Williams/Hahn put on the field.

 

Put up and shut up, you excuse-laden, fickle fans, you!! That is the message to you!!

 

Then Sox fans should expect a similar level of commitment from ownership. That is what I am saying.

[Dick Allen]

I gave reasons why the fanbase would think that team was going to crap. Trading away a cy young winner is a pretty good one. Your response was "But they brought back Lyle Mouton please edit your post", so clearly you think that somehow bringing back Lyle Mouton in a trade should have sold tickets. Explain how? What am I forgetting about Lyle Mouton that would offset trading away a Cy Young Winner to the Yankees?

Lyle Mouton is used as an inside joke on this board. That is what I was getting at.

 

And as for McDowell, even after trading him they had a big 3 of Alvarez, Fernandez and Bere. All of whom you could have made a case might have been better than Black Jack when the strike hit.

[Eminor3rd]

I have been to both parks. The ballpark experience isn't very different. And I didn't go up there, but I would bet their upper deck is just as far away from the field. If not farther.

 

Wrigley is a dump and is just as boring as the Cell. However, the neighborhood is completely different and we all know it. All the money is on the northside. All the 20-somethings are on the northside. They all have trust funds. Wrigleyville is bro-heaven. Everyone loves it. It's in the midst of where everyone wants to be.

 

Bridgeport is nice ONLY compared to everything else on the southside. The southside is famous for murder. The stadium is surrounded by parking lots and ugly freeways. There are a couple bars. Wrigleyville is actually considered a tourist attraction.

 

These thing affect ballpark experience. Maybe you or I don't like Wrigleyville, but we must acknowledge that the vast majority of people do.

 

The upper deck view is definitely worse, but like I said, the ballpark (for the masses) is NOT the best place to follow the action anyway. People go to Wrigley simply to BE at Wrigley.

 

Except for the White Sox, who need multiple playoffs births in a row to get people to show up.

 

Again, you're assuming that attendance = fan interest. It's a proxy, but it is not equal. Whether or not it's worthwhile to go to the ballpark DOES NOT EQUAL how much winning it requires for fans to follow the baseball team.

[shysocks]

I guess you can look at it that way. My point was that the Hawks always draw good attendance regardless of record. I just disagree that their attendance went down very much. It definitely did not go down to the extent the Sox do.

 

If capacity isn't the point then the sox actually draw almost as well as the Hawks do so there is no discussion of attendance. The Hawks drew 22,000, the Sox draw 20,000.

 

The amount that each team draws during non-winning seasons is the issue. The trends are that the Hawks do not have as much trouble drawing fans to the stadium during non-winning seasons. The fan base is much more likely to go to games when the team has losing seasons.

NHL teams have 41 home dates against 81 for MLB. In 2014 the NHL as a league drew at 95% capacity, MLB at 70%. In 2006, the "valley" for the Blackhawks, so to speak, when they were down around 60%, the NHL was at 91%. In that context, Blackhawks attendance looks just as pathetic as the Sox, if not more.

 

So basically the White Sox need to spend a five to seven year period as the best team in baseball to get fans to show up. That's my point exactly. Sox fans will always have an excuse. If they old ones don't work, they move the bar to a new one. Now Sox fans need a dyntasy type period to show up, as measly playoff births aren't good enough.

 

Nah, I don't see why anyone would think Sox fans are fickle.

So you read "if the Sox won as consistently as the Chicago Blackhawks or Detroit Tigers, or even with a fraction of their consistency, their attendance would have gone up" and came up with they need to be the best team in baseball for five to seven years. I don't know if you really don't understand the difference in those statements or you're just setting up a straw man, but either way it's annoying. I've already said I have no interest in making excuses for other people. I've also said that a correlation between winning and attendance is very common to sports franchises and I haven't seen anybody refute that.

[Eminor3rd]

I gave reasons why the fanbase would think that team was going to crap. Trading away a cy young winner is a pretty good one. Your response was "But they brought back Lyle Mouton please edit your post", so clearly you think that somehow bringing back Lyle Mouton in a trade should have sold tickets. Explain how? What am I forgetting about Lyle Mouton that would offset trading away a Cy Young Winner to the Yankees?

 

Wait, are you implying Lyle Mouton wouldn't fill a stadium on his own?

 

Need I remind you of these numbers? LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS:

 

280! (batting average)

 

22! (career homeruns)

 

97! (career wRC+)

 

ONE POINT TWO! (career fWAR)

 

Look at this smile! LOOK AT IT!

 

[Dick Allen]

Wrigley is a dump and is just as boring as the Cell. However, the neighborhood is completely different and we all know it. All the money is on the northside. All the 20-somethings are on the northside. They all have trust funds. Wrigleyville is bro-heaven. Everyone loves it. It's in the midst of where everyone wants to be.

 

Bridgeport is nice ONLY compared to everything else on the southside. The southside is famous for murder. The stadium is surrounded by parking lots and ugly freeways. There are a couple bars. Wrigleyville is actually considered a tourist attraction.

 

These thing affect ballpark experience. Maybe you or I don't like Wrigleyville, but we must acknowledge that the vast majority of people do.

 

The upper deck view is definitely worse, but like I said, the ballpark (for the masses) is NOT the best place to follow the action anyway. People go to Wrigley simply to BE at Wrigley.

 

 

 

Again, you're assuming that attendance = fan interest. It's a proxy, but it is not equal. Whether or not it's worthwhile to go to the ballpark DOES NOT EQUAL how much winning it requires for fans to follow the baseball team.

You write about money, do you know studies have suggested on average White Sox fans make more money than Cubs fans? The Wrigley Field area has more crime during the day that around USCF at night.

[southsider2k5]

Wrigley is a dump and is just as boring as the Cell. However, the neighborhood is completely different and we all know it. All the money is on the northside. All the 20-somethings are on the northside. They all have trust funds. Wrigleyville is bro-heaven. Everyone loves it. It's in the midst of where everyone wants to be.

 

Bridgeport is nice ONLY compared to everything else on the southside. The southside is famous for murder. The stadium is surrounded by parking lots and ugly freeways. There are a couple bars. Wrigleyville is actually considered a tourist attraction.

 

These thing affect ballpark experience. Maybe you or I don't like Wrigleyville, but we must acknowledge that the vast majority of people do.

 

The upper deck view is definitely worse, but like I said, the ballpark (for the masses) is NOT the best place to follow the action anyway. People go to Wrigley simply to BE at Wrigley.

 

 

 

Again, you're assuming that attendance = fan interest. It's a proxy, but it is not equal. Whether or not it's worthwhile to go to the ballpark DOES NOT EQUAL how much winning it requires for fans to follow the baseball team.

 

So substitute having the near worst TV audience then.

[Balta1701]

So substitute having the near worst TV audience then.

Hey come on man, even in our 63 win season we didn't have any games with what was it, 1000 viewers like Houston had?

[LDF]

with fan base being equal, the way the blackhawks fans are, well, in hockey, the blackhawks are the only game in town. when nhl was expaning, i think in the beginning of the 80's, there was talk of Milwaukee was in the running, $$ Bill nixed it, he didn't want any team to take from his fan base.

 

in chi, you have 2 teams competing against each other. then there was a peace of some sort in the 90's to max the fan base. in actuality, it was so the sox could try to pick up some fans.

 

but in chi, b/c of the neighborhood location, the sox will, as i said before, be second fiddle.

[Eminor3rd]

You write about money, do you know studies have suggested on average White Sox fans make more money than Cubs fans? The Wrigley Field area has more crime during the day that around USCF at night.

 

That makes sense if you assume that White Sox fans tend to be older and therefore less likely to want to go out and drink under any circumstances.

 

Instead of "that's where the money is," what I should have said was, "that's where the money is spent."