bigruss Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 10:34 AM) The thing is the show has broken off from the books. I dont know if it would have happened in time in the books but they certainly made them snap and takeover in the show. She did go bonkers in the book, she just lost in her attempt though and ended up believing in Doran's plan. Considering they didn't get to that point in the show they clearly decided to cut all of that out, which isn't surprising since the whole Quentyn storyline was scrapped in the show. They essentially expedited the ousting of the Martells, now it'll be interesting to see where they do with this, there's still an opening for the Martells to support Dany/Targaryean conquers but there needs to be a bridge to that and Doran was it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 09:47 AM) Debbie Downer. Why do you always have to be so negative? I thought it was great. Happy to be back in this world again. oiseewhatyoudidthere I didnt say the episode was bad at all, its just a bridge episode. Im also happy to be watching Westeros again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 03:45 PM) She did go bonkers in the book, she just lost in her attempt though and ended up believing in Doran's plan. It's been a while since I read it, but how did she go bonkers? I recall her being pretty reasonable while the Sand Snake daughters wanted revenge in various ways. Lilling Myrcella, performing a coup, killing Doran/Trystane, and wanting to lead Dorne to war are completely departures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Ha, I do have zero clue how they ended up on the ship and the establishing shot was so quick I did not evern really understand what was going on. Why would he even still be on the ship? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 09:45 AM) I thought this episode was sort of a nod to people who hate the Dorne story line in the books. "We're ending this s***, right here, right now." No 15 minute scenes with him watching kids play in a pool. The women are 100 times more interesting anyway. I read/listen to too much stuff and my impression is that way more book people love Dorne than hate it (I'm indifferent). Brienne, Bran, book 5 Danny get way more hate for being pointless. The women in the show are awful and barely did anything in the books (more Arriane and Quentin). At least book-Doran had some plans even if they were taking forever. Now we're stuck with random, illogical murder, people saying their characters's name all the time, and maybe getting naked for no reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 06:48 AM) This episode wasnt good or bad, it was just kind of a establishment of storylines episode. Here is where everyone is right now, here is what they are doing, and here is what they are planning on doing. Those episodes are usually a big let down, especially when you are waiting for 9 months The episode started off really good...but it was mainly just a "get things started" episode. Final half hour was pretty boring by and large (but they had to try and get all the various characters engaged again). I was fired up at Reek and Sansa's scene and than the beginning at Castle Black was interesting. Hell, anything at castle black is really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (bmags @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 04:57 PM) Ha, I do have zero clue how they ended up on the ship and the establishing shot was so quick I did not evern really understand what was going on. Why would he even still be on the ship? They watched Jaime's ship sail away from the docks in Dorne. Then they got on a faster ship, caught up right when they got to King's Landing, and secretly boarded Jaime's ship. Then they killed the Lannister guards on board (I'm sure Nymeria was especially helpful because whips are really effective weapons in cramped, indoor spaces) and gleefully killed their cousin. Next episode they'll be back in Dorne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 10:55 AM) It's been a while since I read it, but how did she go bonkers? I recall her being pretty reasonable while the Sand Snake daughters wanted revenge in various ways. Lilling Myrcella, performing a coup, killing Doran/Trystane, and wanting to lead Dorne to war are completely departures. She led all of that (if I'm remembering correctly), she only stopped doing it once Doran revealed his plan to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 11:04 AM) They watched Jaime's ship sail away from the docks in Dorne. Then they got on a faster ship, caught up right when they got to King's Landing, and secretly boarded Jaime's ship. Then they killed the Lannister guards on board (I'm sure Nymeria was especially helpful because whips are really effective weapons in cramped, indoor spaces) and gleefully killed their cousin. Next episode they'll be back in Dorne. I give the show a lot of credit for how good its editing is considering the expansiveness of the plot, but, yeah, that was pretty bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 09:55 AM) It's been a while since I read it, but how did she go bonkers? I recall her being pretty reasonable while the Sand Snake daughters wanted revenge in various ways. Lilling Myrcella, performing a coup, killing Doran/Trystane, and wanting to lead Dorne to war are completely departures. She didn't. Arianne went bonkers in the books and her and the Sand Snakes end up locked up. Then Arianne finds out about Doran's plan and gets on board. The biggest issue to me is that the events in the show don't make sense. Ellaria's only standing in the show is as Oberyn's lover. I didn't have a problem with them aggregating those characters previously, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that Oberyn's lover would have had such access to Doran Martell. Arienne killing Doran and taking over rule of Dorne makes more sense logistically. Not sure what Dorne looks like re: succession, but I have a really hard time believing Ellaria is anywhere the front of that succession... Plus, the biggest issue with Dorne at the moment is moving forward. Dorne is making a play vs. the Lannisters. But that threatens to spread the Lannister plot very thin. We already have the Lannisters dealing with the Faith... a faction that Dorne certainly doesn't fit into... so how will Dorne organically fit into what's happening in King's Landing at the moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 04:59 PM) At least book-Doran had some plans even if they were taking forever. "I am not blind, nor deaf. I know that you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better. Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes. Your father and I worked more closely than you know … but now he is gone. The question is, can I trust his daughters to serve me in his place?" - book Doran "I need to sit down, my feet hurt." - tv Doran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 10:59 AM) I read/listen to too much stuff and my impression is that way more book people love Dorne than hate it (I'm indifferent). Brienne, Bran, book 5 Danny get way more hate for being pointless. The women in the show are awful and barely did anything in the books (more Arriane and Quentin). At least book-Doran had some plans even if they were taking forever. Now we're stuck with random, illogical murder, people saying their characters's name all the time, and maybe getting naked for no reason. Dany was worthless in the last book, shes basically sitting around doing nothing the entire time. Dorne was ok, but they were also just sitting and waiting. The Quentyn plot was ok, but that didnt go very far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 11:09 AM) "I am not blind, nor deaf. I know that you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better. Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes. Your father and I worked more closely than you know … but now he is gone. The question is, can I trust his daughters to serve me in his place?" - book Doran "I need to sit down, my feet hurt." - tv Doran Book Doran was one of my favorites, that quote right there is just pure poetry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 10:04 AM) They watched Jaime's ship sail away from the docks in Dorne. Then they got on a faster ship, caught up right when they got to King's Landing, and secretly boarded Jaime's ship. Then they killed the Lannister guards on board (I'm sure Nymeria was especially helpful because whips are really effective weapons in cramped, indoor spaces) and gleefully killed their cousin. Next episode they'll be back in Dorne. This. Also of note, by my count we had 9 different plots/locations in last night's episode. And we didn't spend any time with Bran, Sam, or the Ironborn. It's really hard to tell a good story when you can only devote 5 minutes an episode to each plot. With that in mind, the fact that they have devoted so much time to a nonsensical and poorly executed Dorne plot is even worse (or to Tyrion and Varys walking around Mereen), and leads to issues like the one that Crimson points out above. There's a lot of really good last night (Brienne and Sansa linking up, Davos' mutton request, Dany and the Dothraki), but their best episodes have a lot more focus on fewer locations and fewer characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 11:09 AM) "I am not blind, nor deaf. I know that you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better. Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes. Your father and I worked more closely than you know … but now he is gone. The question is, can I trust his daughters to serve me in his place?" - book Doran "I need to sit down, my feet hurt." - tv Doran But even book Doran had no real plans taking place. They were just sitting in Dorne. He was definitely a different person and wasnt all that close to being overthrown Doran has his bannermen delay Ser Balon Swann of the Kingsguard, send by Dowager Queen Cersei Lannister, due to Myrcella's injures after Arianne's failed plot.[3][7] He eventually arrives at Sunspear, where a feast is held in his honour. Doran's daughter Arianne, now fully aware of his plans, sits beside him. Doran has also released Oberyn's three eldest daughters, Obara, Tyene and Nymeria from captivity, and in front of the three eldest Sand Snakes, Ellaria Sand, Areo Hotah and half the nobility of Dorne, Doran is presented with the skull of the Gregor Clegane.[7] Ser Balon states that Cersei Lannister wishes him to bring Myrcella back to King's Landing to visit her brother. Doran is invited to fill the vacant Dornish seat on the small council, while Prince Trystane is invited to see the city and befriend the young King. When Doran suggests that traveling by ship may be easier, this unnerves Ser Balon, who states that a voyage by sea would be too dangerous. Doran agrees he is probably right.[7] In a private chamber, Doran Martell reveals to Tyene, Obara, Nymeria, Areo Hotah and his daughter that Cersei's invitation is an ambush. According to a friend at the court of King’s Landing, the party would be ambushed by brigands shouting "halfman" in the Kingswood, and Trystane would be killed in the attack. Afterwards, Ser Balon would falsely claim that he saw Tyrion Lannister. The revelation of this plan shocks the elder three daughters of Oberyn.[7] Doran says he had been dubious of the plot himself until Ser Balon confirmed his suspicions, by trying to persuade him to avoid a voyage by ship (which would have disrupted all of Cersei's arrangements). The Obara, Nymeria and Tyene are enraged, but Doran will not allow them to harm Ser Balon or his companions as he is under the protection of the guest right.[7] To stop this scheme from coming to fruition, Doran has Ser Balon brought to Myrcella, allowing him to find out about her injuries by Gerold Dayne.[7] Myrcella lies (under Arianne's direction), claiming that Ser Gerold also killed Ser Arys Oakheart, begging Ser Balon to bring Dayne to justice. Doran has Obara escort Ser Balon to High Hermitage, and he is currently hunting for Darkstar.[3][7][34] Doran sends Nymeria to King's Landing to claim the vacant seat on the small council, and Tyene to the great Sept of Baelor to befriend the New High Septon.[7] While Doran waits for word from his son, Quentyn, he hears news that a fleet of ships are sailing from Lys to Westeros.[7] The Winds of Winter Doran has received a letter from Lord Jon Connington, stating that his sister Elia's son, Aegon Targaryen, has survived the Sack of King's Landing, and has returned to Westeros after all these years to reclaim the Iron Throne. Doran sends Arianne to the Stormlands to meet Aegon and Connington.[35] Edited April 25, 2016 by RockRaines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 11:07 AM) She didn't. Arianne went bonkers in the books and her and the Sand Snakes end up locked up. Then Arianne finds out about Doran's plan and gets on board. The biggest issue to me is that the events in the show don't make sense. Ellaria's only standing in the show is as Oberyn's lover. I didn't have a problem with them aggregating those characters previously, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that Oberyn's lover would have had such access to Doran Martell. Arienne killing Doran and taking over rule of Dorne makes more sense logistically. Not sure what Dorne looks like re: succession, but I have a really hard time believing Ellaria is anywhere the front of that succession... Plus, the biggest issue with Dorne at the moment is moving forward. Dorne is making a play vs. the Lannisters. But that threatens to spread the Lannister plot very thin. We already have the Lannisters dealing with the Faith... a faction that Dorne certainly doesn't fit into... so how will Dorne organically fit into what's happening in King's Landing at the moment... s*** that's my confusion, I was putting Ellaria/Arianne together in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 10:45 AM) She did go bonkers in the book, she just lost in her attempt though and ended up believing in Doran's plan. Considering they didn't get to that point in the show they clearly decided to cut all of that out, which isn't surprising since the whole Quentyn storyline was scrapped in the show. They essentially expedited the ousting of the Martells, now it'll be interesting to see where they do with this, there's still an opening for the Martells to support Dany/Targaryean conquers but there needs to be a bridge to that and Doran was it. Bingo. I don't think Dorne is the greatest but they cut out a lot of fat from the books. Basically all you have to know is there's another powerful family out there, one with Lannister-hate, and now the leading group isn't p****-footing around, playing the game. They're willing to act spontaneously and kill their enemies out of revenge. They also get naked occasionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 05:07 PM) Not sure what Dorne looks like re: succession, but I have a really hard time believing Ellaria is anywhere the front of that succession... Ellaria has zero claim to control over Dorne. I'm guessing they're just going to pretend she has control because all of the people of Dorne somehow support her now, despite the show not giving us any reason to believe that. Even those guards looked more "deer in the headlights, oh s*** they killed Areo" than "Hell yeah, finally the right people in power now". QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 05:07 PM) Plus, the biggest issue with Dorne at the moment is moving forward. Dorne is making a play vs. the Lannisters. But that threatens to spread the Lannister plot very thin. We already have the Lannisters dealing with the Faith... a faction that Dorne certainly doesn't fit into... so how will Dorne organically fit into what's happening in King's Landing at the moment... I predict that the two Snakes On a Boat will infiltrate King's Landing and try to kill some Lannisters, but get smoked by Robert Strong and/or Jaime. Cersei will send Ellaria a "U MAD BRO?" letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 10:10 AM) Dany was worthless in the last book, shes basically sitting around doing nothing the entire time. Dorne was ok, but they were also just sitting and waiting. The Quentyn plot was ok, but that didnt go very far. Yeah, everything about Mereen is pointless. It existed to get Dany some experience in ruling, but Martin has to figure out how to resolve that plot and then get Dany forward momentum again toward Westeros. My understanding is that Martin initially planned a several year time jump between Books 3 and 4. That would have helped with a couple of the plots that need more time to be done right (Arya's Faceless Man training, Dany ruling and then moving forward, Bran's plot, etc.). In the show, Dany has forward momentum finally, but I'm not sure why Tyrion and Varys in Mereen is going to matter in the least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 11:12 AM) This. Also of note, by my count we had 9 different plots/locations in last night's episode. And we didn't spend any time with Bran, Sam, or the Ironborn. It's really hard to tell a good story when you can only devote 5 minutes an episode to each plot. With that in mind, the fact that they have devoted so much time to a nonsensical and poorly executed Dorne plot is even worse (or to Tyrion and Varys walking around Mereen), and leads to issues like the one that Crimson points out above. There's a lot of really good last night (Brienne and Sansa linking up, Davos' mutton request, Dany and the Dothraki), but their best episodes have a lot more focus on fewer locations and fewer characters. What's so bad about it? I honestly don't see it. My only criticism is that it seems more like fluff without a connection to the central story, but i'm hoping there's more to come in the future. Everything they've introduced/done with those characters makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 11:16 AM) Ellaria has zero claim to control over Dorne. I'm guessing they're just going to pretend she has control because all of the people of Dorne somehow support her now, despite the show not giving us any reason to believe that. Even those guards looked more "deer in the headlights, oh s*** they killed Areo" than "Hell yeah, finally the right people in power now". I predict that the two Snakes On a Boat will infiltrate King's Landing and try to kill some Lannisters, but get smoked by Robert Strong and/or Jaime. Cersei will send Ellaria a "U MAD BRO?" letter. Nymeria is supposed to be in King's landing in the books as their family rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 11:17 AM) Yeah, everything about Mereen is pointless. It existed to get Dany some experience in ruling, but Martin has to figure out how to resolve that plot and then get Dany forward momentum again toward Westeros. My understanding is that Martin initially planned a several year time jump between Books 3 and 4. That would have helped with a couple of the plots that need more time to be done right (Arya's Faceless Man training, Dany ruling and then moving forward, Bran's plot, etc.). In the show, Dany has forward momentum finally, but I'm not sure why Tyrion and Varys in Mereen is going to matter in the least... I was the least interested in Dany's arc in the books at the end because Arya, Bran, and the invasion of Storm's End by Aegon were more interesting to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 10:18 AM) What's so bad about it? I honestly don't see it. My only criticism is that it seems more like fluff without a connection to the central story, but i'm hoping there's more to come in the future. Everything they've introduced/done with those characters makes sense to me. Ellaria makes no sense. In the show, she is introduced as Oberyn's lover. They are not married. She isn't a Martell. In a show where name and claims matter so much, Ellaria having the access she has to Doran makes no sense. Second, there's no nuance to any of the actions in Dorne. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes have only been given one emotion and that's revenge. They don't have a logical plan other than WAR AND VENGENCE AND POISON!! Third, last season's Jaime and Bronn bromance adventure led to Bronn and Jaime infiltrating Dorne, by themselves, and getting access to Myrcella and Trystane. Finally, Ellaria (again, who has no claim to royalty in Dorne) is not even punished for attempting to kill Myrcella in the first place. Instead, she gets unfettered access to Doran. None of this logically makes sense. I agree that the Dorne plot in the books has way too much fat, but a lot of the above is solved if instead of Ellaria as the agitator, the opposition to Doran comes from his daughter. Or a lot of the above is solved if we find out that Doran is playing a long game against the Lannisters. None of the above makes any sense logistically in this world... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 10:21 AM) I was the least interested in Dany's arc in the books at the end because Arya, Bran, and the invasion of Storm's End by Aegon were more interesting to me. No disagreement from me on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Apr 25, 2016 -> 05:13 PM) But even book Doran had no real plans taking place. They were just sitting in Dorne. He was definitely a different person and wasnt all that close to being overthrown He had the Arienne + Viserys plan. And the Quentyn plan. And then the plan with Griff. He's pretty active. Not terribly successful, but he's tryin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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