**SPOILER THREAD** GAME OF THRONES ** SPOILER THREAD **

[HuskyCaucasian]

I was wondering what Osha and Rickon were up to... really disappointing to see them in Ramsays hands now. Worthless northmen. They'd better not flay or torture Rickon.... but now, as always, there is a Stark in Winterfell again.

 

At least Jon will save him.

I kinda forgot about Osha and Rickon.

 

I had a huge crush on Natalia Tena when she was in Harry Potter. Glad to see her again.

[bigruss]

Yeah. That part I don't know what to say.

 

It's possible they do get tortured as a catalyst to turn john.

I've long thought that Jon would leave the Nights Watch since his "watch has ended" and go to Winterfell to take it from the Boltons and help save Sansa. So now he has Sansa and Rickon to worry about.

 

Also, I don't think Jon becomes Lord of Winterfell, I don't think he wants that as I think he's still worried about the walkers and that war, but he knows that having Winterfell supporting him will be key and helping is family is a priority and something he can actually do now that his vows are over.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I have to believe in Kalapses theory on them being in on it, however, there is too much "good things" happening for Game of Thrones for me to feel comfortable.

 

It's definitely plausible but I'm also hung up on him giving up his direwolf. I just can't see that being a sacrifice they would make.

[bmags]

I've long thought that Jon would leave the Nights Watch since his "watch has ended" and go to Winterfell to take it from the Boltons and help save Sansa. So now he has Sansa and Rickon to worry about.

 

Also, I don't think Jon becomes Lord of Winterfell, I don't think he wants that as I think he's still worried about the walkers and that war, but he knows that having Winterfell supporting him will be key and helping is family is a priority and something he can actually do now that his vows are over.

 

Right, I thought so too. What threw me off was how he left, basically not as leader of the wildling army or ensuring support of the watch. I wonder how he patches up power.

[Kyyle23]

Right, I thought so too. What threw me off was how he left, basically not as leader of the wildling army or ensuring support of the watch. I wonder how he patches up power.

 

I am thinking if Melisandre, Davos and Tormund(plus the Wildlings) all leave with him.

[RockRaines]

It's definitely plausible but I'm also hung up on him giving up his direwolf. I just can't see that being a sacrifice they would make.

First thing I thought was that wasnt his direwolf

[illinilaw08]

Would Rickon kill Shaggydog or allow him to be killed, just for the sake of a ploy?

 

I did notice that the wolves head we saw looked small for a direwolf.

 

IF this is a ploy, it's a particularly stupid one. Everyone knows Ramsay's reputation. Everyone knows that Rickon (and really any living, male, Stark) is a threat to Ramsay's power at Winterfell. There's really no logical reason for Ramsay to hold Rickon hostage as opposed to killing him. And there's even less of a reason for him to hold Asha.

 

If the Umbers are still loyal to the Starks, they would be handing over the one asset they have that could rally the North to a known sadist because... reasons?

 

Furthermore, I'm not really clear as to why any of the Northern lords would rally to help Ramsay out? I get the Karstarks, and I get the idea that Jon let the wildlings south of the Wall (though that has zero to do with Rickon but whatever). But neither of those should counteract the fact that Roose Bolton - the guy that was a planner - is now dead. And in his place is the guy that flays and tortures everyone, who now has no allies outside of the North (losing the Lannisters because of Sansa).

 

 

 

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

First thing I thought was that wasnt his direwolf

 

If that was merely a regular wolf head, I don't think it would have convinced Ramsay.

[Chisoxfn]

IF this is a ploy, it's a particularly stupid one. Everyone knows Ramsay's reputation. Everyone knows that Rickon (and really any living, male, Stark) is a threat to Ramsay's power at Winterfell. There's really no logical reason for Ramsay to hold Rickon hostage as opposed to killing him. And there's even less of a reason for him to hold Asha.

 

If the Umbers are still loyal to the Starks, they would be handing over the one asset they have that could rally the North to a known sadist because... reasons?

 

Furthermore, I'm not really clear as to why any of the Northern lords would rally to help Ramsay out? I get the Karstarks, and I get the idea that Jon let the wildlings south of the Wall (though that has zero to do with Rickon but whatever). But neither of those should counteract the fact that Roose Bolton - the guy that was a planner - is now dead. And in his place is the guy that flays and tortures everyone, who now has no allies outside of the North (losing the Lannisters because of Sansa).

Or the Umbers have gotten more information and know that Rickon isn't the only surviving stark and have more information. The umbers were extremely loyal to the starks. I could absolutely (and hope) that this is a long play to get Ramsay to weaken his positions and get himself killed.

[illinilaw08]

Or the Umbers have gotten more information and know that Rickon isn't the only surviving stark and have more information. The umbers were extremely loyal to the starks. I could absolutely (and hope) that this is a long play to get Ramsay to weaken his positions and get himself killed.

 

The only reason for Ramsay to keep Rickon alive is to use him as bait to get Sansa back. But Ramsay is a known sadist who has not shown a propensity for either avoiding cruelty or long term planning. If Ramsay acts in character, the Umbers are giving Rickon over to die (or to be horribly tortured).

 

What better way to show your loyalty to the other remaining Starks then by causing Rickon's death? I stand by my position. If this is a ploy, it's an exceedingly dumb one.

[Jenksismyhero]

If this isn't a ploy, why is Asha there? Why is she still alive? They would have killed her before bringing her to Ramsay.

 

[illinilaw08]

If this isn't a ploy, why is Asha there? Why is she still alive? They would have killed her before bringing her to Ramsay.

 

IF it's a ploy, what is the upside of the ploy for the Umbers? Is Osha supposed to kill Ramsay in the middle of the night thereby retaking Winterfell in a bloodless coup?

 

IF it's a ploy and Rickon is on it, then either (1) Rickon consented to beheading Shaggydog (that makes no sense); (2) they substituted another direwolf head for Shaggydog (also implausible); or (3) they substituted a wolf head and Ramsay is dumb enough to have accepted that (still implausible).

 

IF it's a ploy, and presumably the Umbers are still Stark loyalists, then how are the Umbers accounting for Rickon's safety? Surely their plan is in trouble if Rickon dies, right? Ramsay's hold on Winterfell is threatened by the existence of a male Stark. The Umbers are willingly handing over Rickon for, at best torture and at worst an immediate death. What's the upside of the plan?

 

Simply put, this plan makes as much sense as Littlefinger handing Sansa over to Ramsay, unguarded, who, despite dropping bodies up and down the North, Littlefinger has never heard of...

 

ETA: I'm not saying this isn't a ploy. I'm saying that if it is a ploy, it's stupid within the narrative, and exists only to give Ramsay a reason to be threatening to someone. I almost hope it's not a ploy because the Umbers siding with the Boltons in the show universe makes more coherent sense than the alternative...

Edited May 9, 2016 by illinilaw08

[Southwest Sider]

Or the Umbers have gotten more information and know that Rickon isn't the only surviving stark and have more information.

 

Interesting, I had forgotten about this. Osha and Rickon know that Bran is alive, or at least was alive as he headed beyond the Wall. No doubt they would have told the Umbers this during their years of hiding. Therefore, the Umbers should know that there is a long game being played by Bran and would be smart to not betray the Starks at this juncture.

 

It really does seem odd that Smalljon made it seem like a Jon Snow-led wildling army invasion was imminent, when as far as they should know he is still either Lord Commander of the Nights Watch or dead. Perhaps news of his death arrived to them, but surely news of his revival hasn't. That news is really too fresh and it's plausible that the Umbers made for Winterfell as soon as they heard of Roose Boltons death, which was before Jons revival.

 

A lot to think about. I don't think I've ever been this excited for a tv show.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm putting the odds of this theory at 30%, but I still think it's plausible.

 

IF it's a ploy, what is the upside of the ploy for the Umbers? Is Osha supposed to kill Ramsay in the middle of the night thereby retaking Winterfell in a bloodless coup?

 

The family that put the Starks back in their home? I think that'd buy you some good graces.

 

Hasn't she done that before when she escaped from Theon? And remember, it seems like Ramsay is leaving Winterfell to go take Castle Black. If he leaves a small force to hold Winterfell, maybe she and Rickon can muster some support from loyalists that are still around.

 

IF it's a ploy and Rickon is on it, then either (1) Rickon consented to beheading Shaggydog (that makes no sense); (2) they substituted another direwolf head for Shaggydog (also implausible); or (3) they substituted a wolf head and Ramsay is dumb enough to have accepted that (still implausible).

 

How many people have seen direwolves? Aren't they super rare? Do we know if Ramsey would know what one looked like? Did he see Robs or was he away for all that? My initial reaction was that head was rather small. Ramsay SHOULD know that direwolve heads are supposed to be huge, but maybe not. This is the most problematic problem with this theory, I agree.

 

IF it's a ploy, and presumably the Umbers are still Stark loyalists, then how are the Umbers accounting for Rickon's safety? Surely their plan is in trouble if Rickon dies, right? Ramsay's hold on Winterfell is threatened by the existence of a male Stark. The Umbers are willingly handing over Rickon for, at best torture and at worst an immediate death. What's the upside of the plan?

 

Yeah, it's a gamble, but without any army how else can the Starks take back Winterfell? And if death of an heir is a goal, why not show up with Rickon's body? Why present him alive?

 

Simply put, this plan makes as much sense as Littlefinger handing Sansa over to Ramsay, unguarded, who, despite dropping bodies up and down the North, Littlefinger has never heard of...

 

ETA: I'm not saying this isn't a ploy. I'm saying that if it is a ploy, it's stupid within the narrative, and exists only to give Ramsay a reason to be threatening to someone. I almost hope it's not a ploy because the Umbers siding with the Boltons in the show universe makes more coherent sense than the alternative...

 

At the same time keeping a character like Rickon hidden away for 4 seasons only to return him to be killed/tortured seems pretty stupid. No one cares about Rickon because he's been gone so long, so why bring him back now unless there's a reason? If he's killed by the end of this season people would be like, oh ok, that was dumb.

Edited May 9, 2016 by JenksIsMyHero

[CrimsonWeltall]

The family that put the Starks back in their home? I think that'd buy you some good graces.

 

True. But how does Rickon dying or being a tortured bargaining chip for Ramsey (the only 2 likely scenarios here) help put the Starks back in their home?

 

How many people have seen direwolves? Aren't they super rare? Do we know if Ramsey would know what one looked like? Did he see Robs or was he away for all that? My initial reaction was that head was rather small. Ramsay SHOULD know that direwolve heads are supposed to be huge, but maybe not. This is the most problematic problem with this theory, I agree.

 

I went back and looked at the head again. It's pretty f'in big. Shaggy Dog is dead.

 

Yeah, it's a gamble, but without any army how else can the Starks take back Winterfell? And if death of an heir is a goal, why not show up with Rickon's body? Why present him alive?

 

He's not a bargaining chip if he's dead.

 

At the same time keeping a character like Rickon hidden away for 4 seasons only to return him to be killed/tortured seems pretty stupid. No one cares about Rickon because he's been gone so long, so why bring him back now unless there's a reason? If he's killed by the end of this season people would be like, oh ok, that was dumb.

 

I think he'll get rescued, but not because it was any part of an Umber plan.

[Jenksismyhero]

 

If you put a man's hand on that handle, it looks small to me. That looks like a big dog, not a direwolf like Ghost. But I readily admit that's me WANTING it to be something else

[bigruss]

Yea I agree that the Umbers did this on purpose and aren't working with Osha and Rickon, I don't like the fact that Lord Umber is using the wildlings as an excuse to turn on Rickon though, seems weak as hell and totally out of character for a pro-Stark house.

[Chisoxfn]

Yea I agree that the Umbers did this on purpose and aren't working with Osha and Rickon, I don't like the fact that Lord Umber is using the wildlings as an excuse to turn on Rickon though, seems weak as hell and totally out of character for a pro-Stark house.

Do we really know that the father Umber (who was extremely loyal to the Starks) is actually dead even? Could be, maybe he isn't though. Wasn't Rickon supposed to go to the Umbers (because they were the most loyal of all to the Starks) and most likely has been with them for quite a long time (since a few years have passed from when we last saw him in "real" time). Couldn't have taken him that long to get to the Umbers and thus now they are just going to trade him (or has he just been in capture for two plus years just because and now they have decided is the time to leverage him) because of Jon Snow and the Wildings. I don't buy it.

[illinilaw08]

Yeah, it's a gamble, but without any army how else can the Starks take back Winterfell? And if death of an heir is a goal, why not show up with Rickon's body? Why present him alive?

 

At the same time keeping a character like Rickon hidden away for 4 seasons only to return him to be killed/tortured seems pretty stupid. No one cares about Rickon because he's been gone so long, so why bring him back now unless there's a reason? If he's killed by the end of this season people would be like, oh ok, that was dumb.

 

So, I don't disagree that there's reason to think that turning over Rickon is part of a ploy. But in the world of GOT - which is supposed to be a world of gritty realism - the Umbers have a much higher success rate if they quietly used Rickon to rally the North to their side before trying to retake Winterfell.

 

I think describing that plan as a gamble is understating the level of risk involved. Everyone knows Ramsay's reputation. Rickon would either killed or flayed in order to preserve Ramsay's place...

 

Finally, I also don't disagree that it would be stupid to keep Rickon hidden away for 4 seasons only to return him to be killed. But in the world of the show, any other result for Rickon strains credibility.

 

My take? With Sansa and Theon gone, and Roose Bolton dead, there's no remaining character inside Winterfell for Ramsay to interact with. Turning Rickon over to Ramsay - as part of a ploy or because the Umbers are really, really pissed at Jon - gives them a reason to give Ramsay screen time and keeps Ramsay as a viable threat.

 

 

[bigruss]

Do we really know that the father Umber (who was extremely loyal to the Starks) is actually dead even? Could be, maybe he isn't though. Wasn't Rickon supposed to go to the Umbers (because they were the most loyal of all to the Starks) and most likely has been with them for quite a long time (since a few years have passed from when we last saw him in "real" time). Couldn't have taken him that long to get to the Umbers and thus now they are just going to trade him (or has he just been in capture for two plus years just because and now they have decided is the time to leverage him) because of Jon Snow and the Wildings. I don't buy it.

And that's why we are having this discussion, neither side really makes any sense with the facts known.

 

The only thing I can think of is that Greatjon died and his allegiance to the Starks (remember he was the first to proclaim Robb as king of the north) was the only thing keeping the Umbers loyal. But that seems shaky at best.

[bmags]

So, I don't disagree that there's reason to think that turning over Rickon is part of a ploy. But in the world of GOT - which is supposed to be a world of gritty realism - the Umbers have a much higher success rate if they quietly used Rickon to rally the North to their side before trying to retake Winterfell.

 

I think describing that plan as a gamble is understating the level of risk involved. Everyone knows Ramsay's reputation. Rickon would either killed or flayed in order to preserve Ramsay's place...

 

Finally, I also don't disagree that it would be stupid to keep Rickon hidden away for 4 seasons only to return him to be killed. But in the world of the show, any other result for Rickon strains credibility.

 

My take? With Sansa and Theon gone, and Roose Bolton dead, there's no remaining character inside Winterfell for Ramsay to interact with. Turning Rickon over to Ramsay - as part of a ploy or because the Umbers are really, really pissed at Jon - gives them a reason to give Ramsay screen time and keeps Ramsay as a viable threat.

It also may give Jon Snow a reason to attack Winterfell.

[illinilaw08]

It also may give Jon Snow a reason to attack Winterfell.

 

Jon has plenty of reason to attack Winterfell though - the Boltons killed Robb, and Ramsay raped and beat Sansa. More than likely, it provides an obstacle for Jon and Sansa to overcome when they inevitably attack Winterfell.

 

 

[bmags]

Jon has plenty of reason to attack Winterfell though - the Boltons killed Robb, and Ramsay raped and beat Sansa. More than likely, it provides an obstacle for Jon and Sansa to overcome when they inevitably attack Winterfell.

 

But none of those would be immediate reasons to move the plot, especially when he at this point clearly believes the end is nigh with the white walkers.

[Chisoxfn]

And that's why we are having this discussion, neither side really makes any sense with the facts known.

 

The only thing I can think of is that Greatjon died and his allegiance to the Starks (remember he was the first to proclaim Robb as king of the north) was the only thing keeping the Umbers loyal. But that seems shaky at best.

Yep..that was my point...given how loyal the father was to the Starks, I just don't see how the son could differ so much, especially against a family who had totally betrayed the Starks. I suppose the wildings angle is decent enough cover for the story...but I am convinced there is more there (but I'm a Stark loyalist so I always root for the Starks).

[bigruss]

Yep..that was my point...given how loyal the father was to the Starks, I just don't see how the son could differ so much, especially against a family who had totally betrayed the Starks. I suppose the wildings angle is decent enough cover for the story...but I am convinced there is more there (but I'm a Stark loyalist so I always root for the Starks).

It could just be lazy writing to move the story forward quickly, which would be disappointing.