**SPOILER THREAD** GAME OF THRONES ** SPOILER THREAD **

[Jenksismyhero]

Seriously on the bolded.

 

I agree with the last point as well. Last season, the Lannister's forces were spread so thin that they couldn't deal with a couple Faith's Militant with clubs. This season, they are an unstoppable force keeping peace in the Riverlands, garrisoning Casterly Rock, protecting KL, and apparently are strong enough that LF and Sansa are worried about them invading the North in winter?

 

Not enough character development going on here. After blowing up her allies and the Pope of Westeros last season, Cersei has seen no political consequences for that act. At all. It's jarring to me.

 

I suppose the answer is fear - they know what she's capable of. Maybe the writers gave a nod to this idea when they had Jaime tell Euron about how fickle the masses were - one second yelling at Cersei in the streets, the next loving her.

[TaylorStSox]

I suppose the answer is fear - they know what she's capable of. Maybe the writers gave a nod to this idea when they had Jaime tell Euron about how fickle the masses were - one second yelling at Cersei in the streets, the next loving her.

Yeah, I thought that was obvious.

[illinilaw08]

I thought they handled that pretty well though. Her counter wasn't just a promise to pay in 14 days, it was that the bank has no choice but to fund Cersei's war. They can't align with Dany because Dany is opposed to how the bank makes money. The bank loses if Dany wins the war.

 

Isn't the Iron Bank in Braavos, the "Free City of Braavos," on the show though? I'm not entirely sure that it's consistent that the Iron Bank would be like "we can't support Dany because she freed slaves in Slavers Bay and if she wins the Iron Throne she will spread those ideas to Westeros where slavery is already illegal?" That scene didn't work for me.

 

But that scene kind of points to a larger issue. Cersei literally destroyed the Sept of Baelor, killing a popular Pope and popular Queen in the process. She's calling it "an accident" but there's no way that everybody doesn't know the truth of the matter - that Cersei did this. That act makes her the Mad Queen. But she is able to hand wave it away by being like "remember how crazy Aerys was? What if Dany is mad!" Or, "yeah, we haven't paid bills in awhile and, yeah, that caused you to bankroll Stannis. But Dany is anti-slavery! And something about Lannisters always paying their debts!"

 

The point is that it doesn't make narrative sense for Cersei to continue to be able to persuade and consolidate her power. She started this season in a terrible spot, after having committed a straight up atrocity (that should have actually led to a popular revolt against her right?) and in 3 episodes, she's more powerful than she, or the Lannisters, have been at literally any other point in the show.

[Soxbadger]

Or the one I have the most trouble with - how many forces do the Lannisters really have? They have to have enough of a garrison to protect King's Landing from a direct attack, but they also have enough to keep a small garrison at Castle Rock and then an invasion force at Highgarden? And more to the point - it's questionable whether Cersei or Jaime would take that force away from King's Landing knowing that Dany and her dragons are already back in Westeros. I get that they needed gold to pay off the Iron Bank, but what's the point of getting that gold if Dany attacks King's Landing and everyone is killed/captured?

 

About the Lannister forces and some other things.

 

1) Someone asked where the Tyrell army was. I believe that they have implied that the army is somewhere nears King's Landing, so it may have been too far for them to get back to Highgarden.

 

2) Lannister army keeps adding allies. Its impossible to know the numbers, but a good majority of those forces attacking Highgarden could have been from Tarley. Which also could explain why Highgarden was under defended as they expected Tarley to protect them.

[Jenksismyhero]

Isn't the Iron Bank in Braavos, the "Free City of Braavos," on the show though? I'm not entirely sure that it's consistent that the Iron Bank would be like "we can't support Dany because she freed slaves in Slavers Bay and if she wins the Iron Throne she will spread those ideas to Westeros where slavery is already illegal?" That scene didn't work for me.

 

But that scene kind of points to a larger issue. Cersei literally destroyed the Sept of Baelor, killing a popular Pope and popular Queen in the process. She's calling it "an accident" but there's no way that everybody doesn't know the truth of the matter - that Cersei did this. That act makes her the Mad Queen. But she is able to hand wave it away by being like "remember how crazy Aerys was? What if Dany is mad!" Or, "yeah, we haven't paid bills in awhile and, yeah, that caused you to bankroll Stannis. But Dany is anti-slavery! And something about Lannisters always paying their debts!"

 

The point is that it doesn't make narrative sense for Cersei to continue to be able to persuade and consolidate her power. She started this season in a terrible spot, after having committed a straight up atrocity (that should have actually led to a popular revolt against her right?) and in 3 episodes, she's more powerful than she, or the Lannisters, have been at literally any other point in the show.

 

I suppose the counter is (1) the alternative is the daughter of the Mad King using foreign invaders as her army...that argument seemed to work on Tarly, and (2) she started off in a better spot than we think. She's destroying her enemies camped in/around King's Landing that could push her out. She's got a pro-Cersei counsel, the King's guard, Lannister soldiers inside the city, etc.

 

I agree that it's really unbelievable that weeks or even months prior to this the City was against her and in support of Margery/the High Septon, and now it's a complete 180. But I think we're supposed to believe the masses are dumb and will follow anyone, especially when fear is involved.

[StrangeSox]

Isn't the Iron Bank in Braavos, the "Free City of Braavos," on the show though? I'm not entirely sure that it's consistent that the Iron Bank would be like "we can't support Dany because she freed slaves in Slavers Bay and if she wins the Iron Throne she will spread those ideas to Westeros where slavery is already illegal?" That scene didn't work for me.

 

But that scene kind of points to a larger issue. Cersei literally destroyed the Sept of Baelor, killing a popular Pope and popular Queen in the process. She's calling it "an accident" but there's no way that everybody doesn't know the truth of the matter - that Cersei did this. That act makes her the Mad Queen. But she is able to hand wave it away by being like "remember how crazy Aerys was? What if Dany is mad!" Or, "yeah, we haven't paid bills in awhile and, yeah, that caused you to bankroll Stannis. But Dany is anti-slavery! And something about Lannisters always paying their debts!"

 

The point is that it doesn't make narrative sense for Cersei to continue to be able to persuade and consolidate her power. She started this season in a terrible spot, after having committed a straight up atrocity (that should have actually led to a popular revolt against her right?) and in 3 episodes, she's more powerful than she, or the Lannisters, have been at literally any other point in the show.

 

They could be depicting the Iron Bank similar to how things worked here during slavery. Slavery wasn't legal in NYC or Britain, but both places sure got wealthy off of all the trade generated by it. I'm not sure they really established a large global trade economy from Slaver's Bay that would involve Braavos, but that could potentially be how that would work. Or it's just more sloppy writing and plot holes.

 

Definitely agree on it not making sense for Cersei to be gaining power again right now, which is part of the reason I'm pretty bored with her story line. If her dumb "secret weapon" ballistas actually manage to kill a dragon I'll be entirely done with that part of the story and ready for The Night King stuff.

[Jenksismyhero]

About the Lannister forces and some other things.

 

1) Someone asked where the Tyrell army was. I believe that they have implied that the army is somewhere nears King's Landing, so it may have been too far for them to get back to Highgarden.

 

2) Lannister army keeps adding allies. Its impossible to know the numbers, but a good majority of those forces attacking Highgarden could have been from Tarley. Which also could explain why Highgarden was under defended as they expected Tarley to protect them.

 

The writers of the show noted in the after-episode summary that the Tyrell's are rich but they've always been bad fighters. I don't remember that ever being brought up in the show, but that was their (weak) explanation.

[RockRaines]

They could be depicting the Iron Bank similar to how things worked here during slavery. Slavery wasn't legal in NYC or Britain, but both places sure got wealthy off of all the trade generated by it. I'm not sure they really established a large global trade economy from Slaver's Bay that would involve Braavos, but that could potentially be how that would work. Or it's just more sloppy writing and plot holes.

 

Definitely agree on it not making sense for Cersei to be gaining power again right now, which is part of the reason I'm pretty bored with her story line. If her dumb "secret weapon" ballistas actually manage to kill a dragon I'll be entirely done with that part of the story and ready for The Night King stuff.

Braavos generally doesnt care much for Kings Landing, so I still think there is going to be some disloyalty there that she may not see coming.

[Jenksismyhero]

They could be depicting the Iron Bank similar to how things worked here during slavery. Slavery wasn't legal in NYC or Britain, but both places sure got wealthy off of all the trade generated by it. I'm not sure they really established a large global trade economy from Slaver's Bay that would involve Braavos, but that could potentially be how that would work. Or it's just more sloppy writing and plot holes.

 

Definitely agree on it not making sense for Cersei to be gaining power again right now, which is part of the reason I'm pretty bored with her story line. If her dumb "secret weapon" ballistas actually manage to kill a dragon I'll be entirely done with that part of the story and ready for The Night King stuff.

 

Oh you know they're going to get at least one dragon that way. It's a Chekhov's ballista.

[StrangeSox]

Also why is Dany skeptical about an army of the undead? She's got dragons that hatched magically and is the "unburnt" because she miraculously is immune to fire.

[bmags]

It's not just the actual physics of the show like time and distance. It also is just that it set up years of confronting you with how impossible it was to actually suceed vs those who had power. How those pulling the strings would overwhelm you.

 

And to an extent I see them doing the "unless you are willing to push the stakes" aspect of that, there just seems like too many deus ex machina now. Euron's fleet being this indestructible force after years of us being told the greyjoys were basically a nuisance that largely sucked at fighting (and with onlly half the island).

 

Arya will destroy entire houses. 5 houses will fall with small army in the course of a single battle.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Oh you know they're going to get at least one dragon that way. It's a Chekhov's ballista.

 

Euron's navy has a bunch of flame missiles launching all over the place. Why is what is essentially just a large crossbow supposed to be some sort of ace in the hole??

 

It's not just the actual physics of the show like time and distance. It also is just that it set up years of confronting you with how impossible it was to actually suceed vs those who had power. How those pulling the strings would overwhelm you.

 

And to an extent I see them doing the "unless you are willing to push the stakes" aspect of that, there just seems like too many deus ex machina now. Euron's fleet being this indestructible force after years of us being told the greyjoys were basically a nuisance that largely sucked at fighting (and with onlly half the island).

 

Arya will destroy entire houses. 5 houses will fall with small army in the course of a single battle.

 

Plot armor is extremely powerful, my friend.

 

And why the hell is Jorah back? Who cares about his character anymore? His arc was pretty much wrapped up.

Edited July 31, 2017 by StrangeSox

[Chisoxfn]

About the Lannister forces and some other things.

 

1) Someone asked where the Tyrell army was. I believe that they have implied that the army is somewhere nears King's Landing, so it may have been too far for them to get back to Highgarden.

 

2) Lannister army keeps adding allies. Its impossible to know the numbers, but a good majority of those forces attacking Highgarden could have been from Tarley. Which also could explain why Highgarden was under defended as they expected Tarley to protect them.

Was this the first time we've seen Bronn since Tyrion fled?

 

Edit: Nevermind...I forgot we saw him when Blackfish died.

[Jenksismyhero]

Euron's navy has a bunch of flame missiles launching all over the place. Why is what is essentially just a large crossbow supposed to be some sort of ace in the hole??

 

 

 

Plot armor is extremely powerful, my friend.

 

I don't disagree, but it seems very unlikely at this point that they bring the Horn into play. They had to come up with some way to kill a dragon on screen (water cooler talking point) or at minimum provide a threat to Dany's seemingly unbeatable weapon. A large crossbow that would be too cumbersome to be all that effective against a flying dragon is apparently what they came up with.

[Chisoxfn]

It's not just the actual physics of the show like time and distance. It also is just that it set up years of confronting you with how impossible it was to actually suceed vs those who had power. How those pulling the strings would overwhelm you.

 

And to an extent I see them doing the "unless you are willing to push the stakes" aspect of that, there just seems like too many deus ex machina now. Euron's fleet being this indestructible force after years of us being told the greyjoys were basically a nuisance that largely sucked at fighting (and with onlly half the island).

 

Arya will destroy entire houses. 5 houses will fall with small army in the course of a single battle.

Just wait until the fleet is burned up by dragons.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Saw someone on reddit mention the possibility of the Night King resurrecting a dragon to make an ice dragon. Cool idea.

[Kyyle23]

Also why is Dany skeptical about an army of the undead? She's got dragons that hatched magically and is the "unburnt" because she miraculously is immune to fire.

 

Yea, it is pretty strange that they will act like White Walkers are an old wives tale. Although, Dragons were around recently, it isnt like they have been gone for hundreds of years and reduced to myth.

 

But in general, of all people Dany should understand that magical elements in her world should not be discounted and ignored.

[Soxbadger]

The writers of the show noted in the after-episode summary that the Tyrell's are rich but they've always been bad fighters. I don't remember that ever being brought up in the show, but that was their (weak) explanation.

 

Oleana did mention that they werent good fighters with Jamie Lannister.

 

That being said, a big castle like that shouldnt fall quick unless it was under defended.

[southsider2k5]

Isn't the Iron Bank in Braavos, the "Free City of Braavos," on the show though? I'm not entirely sure that it's consistent that the Iron Bank would be like "we can't support Dany because she freed slaves in Slavers Bay and if she wins the Iron Throne she will spread those ideas to Westeros where slavery is already illegal?" That scene didn't work for me.

 

But that scene kind of points to a larger issue. Cersei literally destroyed the Sept of Baelor, killing a popular Pope and popular Queen in the process. She's calling it "an accident" but there's no way that everybody doesn't know the truth of the matter - that Cersei did this. That act makes her the Mad Queen. But she is able to hand wave it away by being like "remember how crazy Aerys was? What if Dany is mad!" Or, "yeah, we haven't paid bills in awhile and, yeah, that caused you to bankroll Stannis. But Dany is anti-slavery! And something about Lannisters always paying their debts!"

 

The point is that it doesn't make narrative sense for Cersei to continue to be able to persuade and consolidate her power. She started this season in a terrible spot, after having committed a straight up atrocity (that should have actually led to a popular revolt against her right?) and in 3 episodes, she's more powerful than she, or the Lannisters, have been at literally any other point in the show.

 

In real life, I thought of it more like Tienanmen Square. The country looked on the brink of collapse, but after they rolled those tanks through and started killing people... things got pretty quiet. They have stayed that way for a couple of decades now too.

[TaylorStSox]

Saw someone on reddit mention the possibility of the Night King resurrecting a dragon to make an ice dragon. Cool idea.

Theres always been speculation about an ice dragon in Winterfell. .

[ZoomSlowik]

I thought they handled that pretty well though. Her counter wasn't just a promise to pay in 14 days, it was that the bank has no choice but to fund Cersei's war. They can't align with Dany because Dany is opposed to how the bank makes money. The bank loses if Dany wins the war.

As others pointed out, it's a stretch. Slavery in Westeros isn't a thing, they supported a much weaker option than Danny, and the debt racked up by The Crown (and threatening to go higher) isn't good for business either.

 

That was just one example of several. It seems like things just show up and go away because they have to right now instead of building up or cause/effect like earlier in the story.

 

 

[ZoomSlowik]

Isn't the Iron Bank in Braavos, the "Free City of Braavos," on the show though? I'm not entirely sure that it's consistent that the Iron Bank would be like "we can't support Dany because she freed slaves in Slavers Bay and if she wins the Iron Throne she will spread those ideas to Westeros where slavery is already illegal?" That scene didn't work for me.

 

But that scene kind of points to a larger issue. Cersei literally destroyed the Sept of Baelor, killing a popular Pope and popular Queen in the process. She's calling it "an accident" but there's no way that everybody doesn't know the truth of the matter - that Cersei did this. That act makes her the Mad Queen. But she is able to hand wave it away by being like "remember how crazy Aerys was? What if Dany is mad!" Or, "yeah, we haven't paid bills in awhile and, yeah, that caused you to bankroll Stannis. But Dany is anti-slavery! And something about Lannisters always paying their debts!"

 

The point is that it doesn't make narrative sense for Cersei to continue to be able to persuade and consolidate her power. She started this season in a terrible spot, after having committed a straight up atrocity (that should have actually led to a popular revolt against her right?) and in 3 episodes, she's more powerful than she, or the Lannisters, have been at literally any other point in the show.

 

This is basically my point, I just didn't want to type that much on my phone. Well said.

 

[Soxbadger]

As others pointed out, it's a stretch. Slavery in Westeros isn't a thing, they supported a much weaker option than Danny, and the debt racked up by The Crown (and threatening to go higher) isn't good for business either.

 

That was just one example of several. It seems like things just show up and go away because they have to right now instead of building up or cause/effect like earlier in the story.

 

I dont think it was so much that Danny doesnt like slaves, more that she is a revolutionary and therefore unpredictable. Who is to say she wouldnt gun for the bank after the war was over.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Soxbadger

[ZoomSlowik]

I dont think it was so much that Danny doesnt like slaves, more that she is a revolutionary and therefore unpredictable. Who is to say she wouldnt gun for the bank after the war was over.

Again, seems like a stretch. Why would she bother with Esos once she is on the throne? Plus isn't unpredictable better than someone that has been welching for several years at this point? Espescially since he knows there's no more Lannister gold? She wouldn't really have a point if the house motto (not their house words!) was, "Eh, we'll pay you later."

 

Edit- unless you assume she's completely nuts (which admittedly people seem to do because of her family, though the bank made a big point about numbers over narratives), the worst case scenario is she doesn't pay, which is right where they are now. It may even be slightly better because Cersei will probably ask for more.

 

Now if they can pay it off after sacking Highgarden, that obviously changes things.

Edited July 31, 2017 by ZoomSlowik

[Soxbadger]

Again, seems like a stretch. Why would she bother with Esos once she is on the throne? Plus isn't unpredictable better than someone that has been welching for several years at this point? Espescially since he knows there's no more Lannister gold? She wouldn't really have a point if the house motto (not their house words!) was, "Eh, we'll pay you later."

 

I viewed it more like a negotiation. Right now there is no guarantee that the bank would actually take her deal, just that she is trying to persuade them. The bank is owed a lot of money, she basically said "give me 1 more day." It looks like the Lannister's are attempting to bring a "truck" of gold to the banker to buy themselves more time.

 

As for who is the better bet, its hard to say. While Lannister's have owed them money, it also means they are beholden to the bank. Danny at this point, isnt beholden to anyone. I can definitely see why the bank would at least given the Lannister's a chance to make good, before they make a final decision.