**SPOILER THREAD** GAME OF THRONES ** SPOILER THREAD **

[caulfield12]

One would think that Jon Snow, Danys and the two Stark sisters are the true remaining protagonists at this point, and Theon/Tyrion/Jamie are all anti-heroes who could become heroes at some point in the not-so-distant future.

 

To turn Danerys into another Mad Queen after so many books and building her "good" side up (ending slavery, attempts to be fair and just throughout the books) would seem to be pretty pointless from a narrative point of view.

 

 

[TaylorStSox]

One would think that Jon Snow, Danys and the two Stark sisters are the true remaining protagonists at this point, and Theon/Tyrion/Jamie are all anti-heroes who could become heroes at some point in the not-so-distant future.

 

To turn Danerys into another Mad Queen after so many books and building her "good" side up (ending slavery, attempts to be fair and just throughout the books) would seem to be pretty pointless from a narrative point of view.

A Song of Ice and Fire = Jon Snow. He's half ice and half fire.

 

"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

[ChiSox_Sonix]

One would think that Jon Snow, Danys and the two Stark sisters are the true remaining protagonists at this point, and Theon/Tyrion/Jamie are all anti-heroes who could become heroes at some point in the not-so-distant future.

 

To turn Danerys into another Mad Queen after so many books and building her "good" side up (ending slavery, attempts to be fair and just throughout the books) would seem to be pretty pointless from a narrative point of view.

 

Why? It fits the narrative perfectly. She's already shown signs of recklessness. GRRM has said the ending is not necessarily happily all around and some people are going to be upset. There's been enough hints about Targaryens that it is both plausible and sensible to have her arc end in such a way.

[TaylorStSox]

- She's left every city she's conquered in worse shape than when she arrived.

- Even in the show, she's gone from emphasizing the importance of a trial to burning an innocent man alive out of frustration.

- She's barren. Even if she wins the Game of Thrones, her line is dead.

- Her father was the Mad King, who happened to burn Ned Stark's father and brother alive.

 

While reading the books, I always got the sense that we're witnessing the events of a young girl slowly driven to madness. If you view the Starks as protagonists, it's hard to also view any Targaryen as a protagonist too. They're completely opposite.

[caulfield12]

Let's say this is all going towards a "darker" confrontation.

 

Who the heck is going to stand up to the White Walkers, when all is said and done?

 

It's not going to be red witches/sorcery and wizardry.

 

 

Logically, the dragons and/or Danerys have to play a role...as pointed out above, fire and ice are the two primary combatants. Not sure about the sea/water/ice part....the Greyjoys/Victarion/Iron Islanders.

[TaylorStSox]

Let's say this is all going towards a "darker" confrontation.

 

Who the heck is going to stand up to the White Walkers, when all is said and done?

 

It's not going to be red witches/sorcery and wizardry.

 

 

Logically, the dragons and/or Danerys have to play a role...as pointed out above, fire and ice are the two primary combatants. Not sure about the sea/water/ice part....the Greyjoys/Victarion/Iron Islanders.

Dragonglass kills the Others. One of the few "good" characters happens to rule an island filled with it.

[caulfield12]

- She's left every city she's conquered in worse shape than when she arrived.

- Even in the show, she's gone from emphasizing the importance of a trial to burning an innocent man alive out of frustration.

- She's barren. Even if she wins the Game of Thrones, her line is dead.

- Her father was the Mad King, who happened to burn Ned Stark's father and brother alive.

 

While reading the books, I always got the sense that we're witnessing the events of a young girl slowly driven to madness. If you view the Starks as protagonists, it's hard to also view any Targaryen as a protagonist too. They're completely opposite.

 

 

Perhaps you're right.

 

Maybe there's a subtle shift in the storytelling selections on HBO (to cast her in a more favorable or positive light), but one would be hard-pressed to imagine they're going to change her from a villain to a hero or vice-versa and go against the books.

 

Metaphorically, her children are the dragons. She doesn't really need a heir, in that sense.

 

You could also argue that there's a subtle shift for all leaders when they give up trying to be loved by all the people and realizing sometimes that fear is a more effective tool to have at your disposal.

 

How many great leaders were universally loved and admired and never had to get their hands dirty somehow?

 

In my opinion, none of the 7 families have improved the conditions of their territory/people very much.

 

And you have the loyalty of Sir Baristan Selmy, Grey Worm, her other lover/protector and finally Jorah Mormont....not to mention the Dorne party that was out to win her affection/s.

[caulfield12]

Dragonglass kills the Others. One of the few "good" characters happens to rule an island filled with it.

 

Stannis is good?

 

Really?

[TaylorStSox]

Perhaps you're right.

 

Maybe there's a subtle shift in the storytelling selections on HBO (to cast her in a more favorable or positive light), but one would be hard-pressed to imagine they're going to change her from a villain to a hero or vice-versa and go against the books.

 

Metaphorically, her children are the dragons. She doesn't really need a heir, in that sense.

 

You could also argue that there's a subtle shift for all leaders when they give up trying to be loved by all the people and realizing sometimes that fear is a more effective tool to have at your disposal.

 

How many great leaders were universally loved and admired and never had to get their hands dirty somehow?

 

In my opinion, none of the 7 families have improved the conditions of their territory/people very much.

 

And you have the loyalty of Sir Baristan Selmy, Grey Worm, her other lover/protector and finally Jorah Mormont....not to mention the Dorne party that was out to win her affection/s.

 

Selmy - stood by and watched Aerys burn thousands and did nothing.

Jorah - turn cloak slaver that chose exile over the Black.

Dothraki - Heartless savages that rule no lands and do nothing but rape and pillage.

 

She's really allied herself with "good" people.

 

[TaylorStSox]

Stannis is good?

 

Really?

If there's any non Stark that's consistently done what's "good for the realm," it's him. He also happens to be the rightful heir. I think he'll die soon, but he's certainly not an antagonist.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Dragonglass kills the Others. One of the few "good" characters happens to rule an island filled with it.

 

I somehow missed that when reading, but it now makes perfect sense that they had that scene in the show between Sam and Stannis

[Jenksismyhero]

Selmy - stood by and watched Aerys burn thousands and did nothing.

Jorah - turn cloak slaver that chose exile over the Black.

Dothraki - Heartless savages that rule no lands and do nothing but rape and pillage.

 

She's really allied herself with "good" people.

 

Selmy came out of nowhere to help her after being exiled, and he was a link to her past, good or bad.

 

Jorah she banished after finding out what he was sent to do.

 

The Dothraki she was sold to, she didn't have much choice, and she "domesticated" the once she became Queen.

 

I never got the hint through 5 books that she was anything but a young girl with good intentions making some mistakes along the way to recapture the throne. She's always trying to take the noble, just route, but she runs into road blocks, which is sort of the point in all the books: no one is really good and no one CAN be good all the time. If you do you'll end up like Ned Stark.

 

Isn't she like 16 in the books? I think the show has made her much older than GRRM intended.

[RockRaines]

I somehow missed that when reading, but it now makes perfect sense that they had that scene in the show between Sam and Stannis

Yeah but Sam just takes off for the Citadel in old town. So he's not even going there.

[bigruss]

Dragonglass kills the Others. One of the few "good" characters happens to rule an island filled with it.

"Rule" is a pretty loose term there, he essentially gave it up to go fight in the North, barely any men are there now. Even if he did have a stronghold there, he doesn't have many ships left and isn't exactly close to it. While he could get the supplies up there, it would take quite a feat to accomplish that.

[TaylorStSox]

"Rule" is a pretty loose term there, he essentially gave it up to go fight in the North, barely any men are there now. Even if he did have a stronghold there, he doesn't have many ships left and isn't exactly close to it. While he could get the supplies up there, it would take quite a feat to accomplish that.

Highgarden never took it though. Didn't they stop the seige when Lords was "killed?"

Edited May 19, 2015 by TaylorStSox

[caulfield12]

In the tv series, it seems like they're heading to the battle/confrontation over Winterfell between the Stannis and Bolton/Frey groups...one would think that both sides would be so weakened afterwards that neither would be much of a major player afterwards.

 

Although not sure how it plays out with the real Sansa instead of the fake/imposter in play.

 

 

And what in the heck are they going to do with Lady Brienne of Tarth?

[ChiSox_Sonix]

In the tv series, it seems like they're heading to the battle/confrontation over Winterfell between the Stannis and Bolton/Frey groups...one would think that both sides would be so weakened afterwards that neither would be much of a major player afterwards.

 

Although not sure how it plays out with the real Sansa instead of the fake/imposter in play.

 

 

And what in the heck are they going to do with Lady Brienne of Tarth?

 

She's either going to play the role of Mance, the hooded stranger or Mors Umber. Or some combination.

[bmags]

Stannis, bolton/frey and whatever little finger does.

[bmags]

Isn't she like 16 in the books? I think the show has made her much older than GRRM intended.

 

That's a really difficult role for a 16 year old to play.

 

Reminds me of Ender's game and how horrible you realize the movie will be when you actually have to watch a bunch of 12 year olds.

[TaylorStSox]

She's either going to play the role of Mance, the hooded stranger or Mors Umber. Or some combination.

I'm guessing Mance. It's going to really interesting when Stannis catches them.

 

Talking about ASOIF on a device that autocorrects sucks.

Edited May 19, 2015 by TaylorStSox

[TheBlackSox8]

Last episode is rated the worst episode on Rotten Tomatoes. I agree.

Not a fan of this season at all. I knew they needed to change things, subtract here, add here, condense and reestablish things...but the direction they've gone with doing that has not been good at all this season.

 

Going with Dorne as the main new storyline this season has been a failure...especially cutting Arianne, Darkstar, Oakheart, Quentyn, and Aegon.

Edited May 20, 2015 by onedude

[Chicago White Sox]

Last episode is rated the worst episode on Rotten Tomatoes. I agree.

Not a fan of this season at all. I knew they needed to change things, subtract here, add here, condense and reestablish things...but the direction they've gone with doing that has not been good at all this season.

 

Going with Dorne as the main new storyline this season has been a failure...especially cutting Arianne, Darkstar, Oakheart, Quentyn, and Aegon.

Yeah, they've really botched the Dorne storyline IMO. Too little character development and world building. Honestly, most of the storylines feel a bit rushed this season. I was all for condensing books 4 & 5, but I really think they've gone too far.

 

Also, I find the Sansa storyline completely ridiculous and counter-productive for the character.

[caulfield12]

Yeah, they've really botched the Dorne storyline IMO. Too little character development and world building. Honestly, most of the storylines feel a bit rushed this season. I was all for condensing books 4 & 5, but I really think they've gone too far.

 

Also, I find the Sansa storyline completely ridiculous and counter-productive for the character.

 

 

I've never particularly enjoyed Arya's "apprenticeship" thing either...when I was reading the books, those were the sections I would always want to skip over the most.

 

Although, granted, anything with Peter Baelish (when he's not involved in the King's Landing intrigue/brothel business) and the Eyrie and Robin was boring as hell, too. Never really bought them as a formidable entity, although the books make them out to be a historic stronghold.

[RockRaines]

I've never particularly enjoyed Arya's "apprenticeship" thing either...when I was reading the books, those were the sections I would always want to skip over the most.

 

Although, granted, anything with Peter Baelish (when he's not involved in the King's Landing intrigue/brothel business) and the Eyrie and Robin was boring as hell, too. Never really bought them as a formidable entity, although the books make them out to be a historic stronghold.

Arya's storyline in the book is probably one of my favorite parts. Its funny how books touch people in different ways. We now know this is the point where the show completely goes off in its own direction, which really only bothers the people who have read the books. I think its hilarious people are up in arms about a rape in the show, they've only shown like 1% of the rape that occurs in the book.

[Kyyle23]

Arya's storyline in the book is probably one of my favorite parts. Its funny how books touch people in different ways. We now know this is the point where the show completely goes off in its own direction, which really only bothers the people who have read the books. I think its hilarious people are up in arms about a rape in the show, they've only shown like 1% of the rape that occurs in the book.

 

the outcry was much lower when Jamie basically raped Cersei next to their dead son, i thought that was much worse than Sansa.