Baltimore Riots

[Kyyle23]

i have watched the video of the mom whooping her sons ass after catching him rioting, like 5 times.

[Balta1701]

I think the vast majority of the rioters had nothing to do with the peaceful protests. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of them barely knew why the protests were occurring. Just some punks who decided to take advantage of the situation, and now, despite all the "free" stuff they stole yesterday, will be paying for their actions for years. Unfortunately, the people who were going about this the civil way will be paying for this as well, and there is no doubt these actions like setting buildings on fire, destroying businesses, throwing bricks at police, will hurt the overall cause.

 

Has rioting ever worked?

Yes. The LAPD had to significantly reform after 1991. We're watching right now as the Ferguson police department has the DOJ light shined on them and people are resigning/being forced out, and the practice of fining the community as a way of funding the city seems like it's also on the way out with it, and those are just a couple recent ones.

[LDF]

1. The police breaking the rules and beating suspects is absolutely not new. In fact, in the modern day surveillance society, I can guarantee you it is substantially less now than it was. It's still bad and needs to be fixed, but people have this weird idea that it is a new phenomenon. It's not. You just hear about it now.

 

2. Similar trend, people with the whole "society is in so much trouble now" thing. Crime rates have been in general decline for a few decades now, and though there are blips, they still are. Again, you're just seeing it more now.

 

3. Bad acts by bad actors do not mean other actors can become bad actors in response. That is a spiral of violence. What the cops are doing does not justify violence and looting. Full stop.

 

4. Police departments in the US are generally far less trained on sub-weapon force and general situational tactics than their bretheren in the rest of the first world. That's part of the issue here. Many large city departments are also far, far less stringent on who they let in in terms of qualifications and testing than the others.

 

a very good response.

 

let me ask this, cops in situations, you can see on tv, not shows but in real life. if the prep gives up, raises their hand, why is it necessary to really use force to take that person down. i see several cops hands swinging. that is really out of line and can be construe as excessive force.

[Dick Allen]

This is a statement by Oriole's COO John Angelos made over the weekend after they had the first issue at the ballpark.

Where is Orioles swag made?

 

I'd love to know where their giveaways are made as well.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Dick Allen

[StrangeSox]

principle of peaceful, non-violent protest and the observance of the rule of law is of utmost importance in any society.[...] Mandela [...] always preached this precept.

 

Well....not exactly.

 

In 1985, then South African president P.W. Botha offered to let Mandela out of prison if he renounced violence. It was the sixth time an apartheid leader had offered Mandela a conditional release from jail. And for the sixth time, Mandela refused, insisting that black South Africans would not lay down their arms until the country’s white government did the same. “Let him renounce violence,” Mandela declared, through his daughter. “I cannot sell my birthright, nor am I prepared to sell the birthright of the people to be free.” The African National Congress did not suspend the armed struggle for another six years, until Mandela had been unconditionally released from prison and the ANC unbanned.

 

eta: also, on MLK:

 

It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. – Martin Luther King

Edited April 28, 2015 by StrangeSox

[LDF]

I think the vast majority of the rioters had nothing to do with the peaceful protests. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of them barely knew why the protests were occurring. Just some punks who decided to take advantage of the situation, and now, despite all the "free" stuff they stole yesterday, will be paying for their actions for years. Unfortunately, the people who were going about this the civil way will be paying for this as well, and there is no doubt these actions like setting buildings on fire, destroying businesses, throwing bricks at police, will hurt the overall cause.

 

Has rioting ever worked?

 

yeah the American revolution.

[LDF]

I totally agree and that's why I keep referring to this as a chemical mixture.

 

The process is exactly the same from place to place. Something bad happens. People get out in the streets because they feel that their voice isn't being heard.

 

Protest starts peacefully, but still surrounded by police in riot gear. Things start to turn ugly, either the people start throwing things or yelling at the police or the police react first to a crowd that vastly outnumbers them, things start to break down, and then people take advantage of the situation.

 

It happens the same way every single time.

 

then those who were there and allowed it to happen is just as guilty.

[Dick Allen]

Yes. The LAPD had to significantly reform after 1991. We're watching right now as the Ferguson police department has the DOJ light shined on them and people are resigning/being forced out, and the practice of fining the community as a way of funding the city seems like it's also on the way out with it, and those are just a couple recent ones.

So this wouldn't have been possible without the fires and the looting?

 

How is that neighborhood in LA these days?

[LDF]

i have watched the video of the mom whooping her sons ass after catching him rioting, like 5 times.

excellent, they, the media should focus on that. but no.... that does not bring in the ratings.

[southsider2k5]

The Cripps, Bloods, and another gang in Baltimore are joining together to take out cops as a result of all of this. Things are really getting out of control in Baltimore. It will probably get a lot worse tonight when the sun goes down.

 

This just sounds like something that will be a failed urban legend soon enough.

[caulfield12]

This is a statement by Oriole's COO John Angelos made over the weekend after they had the first issue at the ballpark.

 

 

You know what Balta, take a look inside a New Era baseball cap and what do you think it says?

 

MADE IN CHINA.

 

If he really wants to make China the boogeyman (and that's his right as an American)...he should be careful to make sure his own house is in order first on this issue.

 

I'm going to guess that 90-95% of the Majestic/Rawlings/Nike etc. t-shirts and jerseys are made in SE Asian countries.

 

I'm going to guess that the Iphone that Mr. Angelos paid $600-650 for in the US (and that costs 33% more without nearly the service/warranty protections, despite the median wage being roughly 1/4th here what it is in the US, making iphones 6-8X more expensive here domestically than in the US, essentially) was made in Shenzhen/Guangdong, China by Foxconn workers earning roughly $200-300 per month sleeping on top of each other in rooms similar to broom closets.

 

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-arch...e-apple-factory

 

While this story was retracted, 90% of it remains true, and there have been so many suicides at that plant (Japanese run) that they had to build huge netting around the top so workers couldn't jump off...those same workers who would patiently and diligently wait until payday to make sure their families at least received their wages before killing themselves.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I love your logic Balta:

 

Police committing criminal acts is the explanation/justification for violent responses ("Well what did you expect would happen?")

 

Black males committing criminals acts is the explanation for police over-policing and using excessive force. Why doesn't the same "well what do you expect" rationale apply?

 

On top of the fact that, yes, big picture here, all the american people see are black kids, mostly male, acting like thugs (oh no, the loaded word!), acting like the stereotypical young black male that people think of when they want to excuse certain police behavior. They're literally making the case for why more police intervention is necessary and why cops shouldn't have to simply talk people down, they should fear for their lives, shoot first and ask questions later.

 

On CNN they had some young black "political activist," Malcolm-X wannabe who said it was terrible that we were calling this a riot. It's an "uprising." They're not looters, they're protestors. He thinks he's making some nuanced point, but in reality he's just adding more gasoline to that fire you're talking about.

 

 

[EvilMonkey]

This is a statement by Oriole's COO John Angelos made over the weekend after they had the first issue at the ballpark.

What does that have to do with the people not voting for change? That is a screed against the current power structure in the area (which happens to be Democratic). If the people want change, make it change. Elect people that will make the changes. Join the police force and help your community. Stop burning it down.

[StrangeSox]

I there anything that the Baltimore Orioles COO can do about where official MLB merchandise is manufactured?

[caulfield12]

Well....not exactly.

 

 

 

eta: also, on MLK:

 

 

That doesn't mean he (MLK) actively planned or participated in any riots...just, at his weakest moments, sympathized with the emotions boiling under the surface.

 

It's the reason why his tactics didn't work well in Albany, Georgia, because the police refused to engage or react or provoke.

 

But that doesn't mean King was a traitor to the cause of non-violence. No way.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I totally agree and that's why I keep referring to this as a chemical mixture.

 

The process is exactly the same from place to place. Something bad happens. People get out in the streets because they feel that their voice isn't being heard.

 

Protest starts peacefully, but still surrounded by police in riot gear. Things start to turn ugly, either the people start throwing things or yelling at the police or the police react first to a crowd that vastly outnumbers them, things start to break down, and then people take advantage of the situation.

 

It happens the same way every single time.

 

Except it didn't happen like this. On one side of town there were peaceful protests. On the other a mob of kids decided to commit crimes and target police officers as a message. Then it devolved from there.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

a very good response.

 

let me ask this, cops in situations, you can see on tv, not shows but in real life. if the prep gives up, raises their hand, why is it necessary to really use force to take that person down. i see several cops hands swinging. that is really out of line and can be construe as excessive force.

 

Force is not on or off. It is a continuum. The first level of force is presence - simply being present in a situation as a police officer. Next is uniformed/identified presence. Next is verbal contact, which has a range of its own. Then it becomes hands-on. That works its way through direct contact, various weapons and on to deadly force of various types.

 

Point of that is, the level of force needs to match the situation. Not all situations with a guy standing there hands up are the same. None should justify deadly force certainly, but points between depend on the situation. Is he armed? Might he be, reasonably? What did he do before he got to that point? Does he have a history? What and who else are around him? Is he a flight risk?

 

It's just not simple.

 

[LDF]

I love your logic Balta:

 

Police committing criminal acts is the explanation/justification for violent responses ("Well what did you expect would happen?")

 

Black males committing criminals acts is the explanation for police over-policing and using excessive force. Why doesn't the same "well what do you expect" rationale apply?

 

On top of the fact that, yes, big picture here, all the american people see are black kids, mostly male, acting like thugs (oh no, the loaded word!), acting like the stereotypical young black male that people think of when they want to excuse certain police behavior. They're literally making the case for why more police intervention is necessary and why cops shouldn't have to simply talk people down, they should fear for their lives, shoot first and ask questions later.

 

On CNN they had some young black "political activist," Malcolm-X wannabe who said it was terrible that we were calling this a riot. It's an "uprising." They're not looters, they're protestors. He thinks he's making some nuanced point, but in reality he's just adding more gasoline to that fire you're talking about.

 

and the media if good tv to continue to show this crap. to keep up the stereo typing of the race.

[StrangeSox]

That doesn't mean he (MLK) actively planned or participated in any riots...just, at his weakest moments, sympathized with the emotions boiling under the surface.

 

It's the reason why his tactics didn't work well in Albany, Georgia, because the police refused to engage or react or provoke.

 

But that doesn't mean King was a traitor to the cause of non-violence. No way.

 

I don't view that statement as a weak moment from King or that makes him a "traitor" to anything. It's once again an explanation, not a defense.

[Jenksismyhero]

This just sounds like something that will be a failed urban legend soon enough.

 

The Baltimore PD chief said last night it's credible.

[caulfield12]

I there anything that the Baltimore Orioles COO can do about where official MLB merchandise is manufactured?

 

Sure, their family is in the ranks of the billionaires now.

 

Are they powerless?

 

If they believe so strongly about this particular issue, then they could build a factory for New Era/Majestic/Rawlings/Nike in East or West Baltimore. Wouldn't that be the EXACT solution to some of the endemic/underlying issues that he's going on and on about?

 

Now do you think fans would be content to pay $35-50 for hats that used to be $12-15 USD two decades ago? In order to protect and/or create more American jobs?

 

Pretty sure I know the answer.

[LDF]

Sure, their family is in the ranks of the billionaires now.

 

Are they powerless?

 

If they believe so strongly about this particular issue, then they could build a factory for New Era/Majestic/Rawlings/Nike in East or West Baltimore. Wouldn't that be the EXACT solution to some of the endemic/underlying issues that he's going on and on about?

 

Now do you think fans would be content to pay $35-50 for hats that used to be $12-15 USD two decades ago? In order to protect and/or create more American jobs?

 

Pretty sure I know the answer.

 

2 different subjects here. maxing out the profit for gain and protest of abuse by police officers which cause a death.

[Balta1701]

I love your logic Balta:

 

Police committing criminal acts is the explanation/justification for violent responses ("Well what did you expect would happen?")

 

Black males committing criminals acts is the explanation for police over-policing and using excessive force. Why doesn't the same "well what do you expect" rationale apply?

 

On top of the fact that, yes, big picture here, all the american people see are black kids, mostly male, acting like thugs (oh no, the loaded word!), acting like the stereotypical young black male that people think of when they want to excuse certain police behavior. They're literally making the case for why more police intervention is necessary and why cops shouldn't have to simply talk people down, they should fear for their lives, shoot first and ask questions later.

 

On CNN they had some young black "political activist," Malcolm-X wannabe who said it was terrible that we were calling this a riot. It's an "uprising." They're not looters, they're protestors. He thinks he's making some nuanced point, but in reality he's just adding more gasoline to that fire you're talking about.

Because the police are supposed to be better than criminals on the street. That's why they're the police. That's why the "this is so uncivilized" and "these are thugs" rings hollow because you won't apply that same standard to police who beat and kill people and then settle things out of court or get this a covered up because they're the police.

 

As soon as you describe the police as thugs for dozens of cases of abuse of power the. You can do the same.

[StrangeSox]

Baltimore Orioles hats are already $35 or more.

 

http://shop.mlb.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=707337

 

I don't think that the COO of the Orioles (who is not himself a billionaire) building charity factories for other multinational corporations is really a solution to the widespread loss of manufacturing and other middle class jobs in this country, though.

[StrangeSox]

Because the police are supposed to be better than criminals on the street. That's why they're the police. That's why the "this is so uncivilized" and "these are thugs" rings hollow because you won't apply that same standard to police who beat and kill people and then settle things out of court or get this a covered up because they're the police.

 

As soon as you describe the police as thugs for dozens of cases of abuse of power the. You can do the same.

 

Keep in mind that the millions of dollars paid out to victims of police brutality is millions of dollars that aren't spent on parks, community centers, schools, etc.