The White Sox Looming Decision

[Soxfest]

Just like he does with his other team.

I disagree looks like neither one of us is going to change our mind.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Soxfest

[RockRaines]

Jerry ok'ed expanding the payroll and hes the scapegoat? WTF is happening.

[LDF]

Jerry ok'ed expanding the payroll and hes the scapegoat? WTF is happening.

 

and your point is???

 

ok i got it, he ok'd the expanding of the payroll, did he also say when to stop???

Edited May 4, 2015 by LDF

[Balta1701]

and your point is???

 

ok i got it, he ok'd the expanding of the payroll, did he also say when to stop???

According to reports last offseason they were close to their limit before they signed Cabrera but they felt confident in doing so after an increase in season ticket sales after the previous moves.

 

If ticket sales on the season therefore don't go as high as they were hoping, because the team starts out slowly and doesn't wind up in contention...that tells me their revenue won't be where they thought it would be and keeping this roster together is in trouble.

[bmags]

Man this sucks.

[LDF]

According to reports last offseason they were close to their limit before they signed Cabrera but they felt confident in doing so after an increase in season ticket sales after the previous moves.

 

If ticket sales on the season therefore don't go as high as they were hoping, because the team starts out slowly and doesn't wind up in contention...that tells me their revenue won't be where they thought it would be and keeping this roster together is in trouble.

 

as good as you and many will think that way, i am more skeptical in that. lets say the profit isn't where they wanted it to be.

[LVSoxFan]

We have Sale and Abreu to be proud about....and Quintana/Eaton/Avi to a lesser extent. Other than that, neither Hahn nor KW will be winning any awards because you actually have to produce on the field of play. And trotting out a subpar manager (and, once again...do we blame Reinsdorf, KW or Hahn) doesn't help matters, either. He's certainly not maximizing the talent of his roster, that's for sure.

 

I like this post.

 

I remember thinking when all the splash moves were made in the offseason: now we're going to find out how real a manager Ventura is, since not having the talent underneath him has been the narrative.

 

I wonder if that's backwards. That the first move is manager because a manager can make the most of the stars but also bring the lesser names up to their full potential. At least I THINK that's what a manager's supposed to do.

 

It's interesting because somebody just mentioned the Garcia "experiment" but really, isn't Ventura the biggest "experiment" being tried here? And if the goal is "win now" and forget rebuilding, why would you decide this was the time to do such an experiment? I would think you'd "experiment" during rebuilding years, where there's no expectation to win and once the pieces are in place, you send the experiment manager on his way for a real manager--like, yes, the Cubs did.

 

If I had to guess and I don't know as much about the game as so many of you here, you're seeing the results of what is yes, very much a family business where family loyalty and politics are given more priority than executing on the field year after year. That whole Ozzie/Kenny thing at the end seemed like something out of Game of Thrones, with two sons trying to off the other to be the favorite of the father.

 

I feel like I've been watching the same thing for the better part of a decade: a few guys whose jersey you can buy with confidence (Abreu, Sale) surrounded by guys you won't remember in three years (save for Ramirez). I thought the plan was, one or two years ago, to rebuild and I was fine with that. But here we are back to "win now!" mode so we made a couple of splash moves but... yeah. Maybe Kenny looked at KC and thought we could emulate their success and it's just a few key moves away?

 

Because IIRC he seems to abhor the idea of a rebuilding year.

 

As for when will it change, the answer is simple I think: when Jerry passes the torch. Not sure if there's an heir there that would keep it in the family and do a Rocky Wirtz (please!), or if it means another owner entirely comes in.

 

But I've seen this film for years now and have no reason to believe it will change until that happens. 2005 was great but that was the exception, not the rule.

Edited May 4, 2015 by LVSoxFan

[Lillian]

Micah or Sanchez is a symbol for everything that is wrong with how this org develops position players. They value athletes over ball players. They value some nebulous thing like "speed" over repeatable, real skills like above average defense up the middle, they rush guys before they've even proven they can tear it up in the upper minors.

 

They talk out of both sides of their mouth. According to Buddy Bell the gap between AAA and MLB has never been higher. So what do they do with Micah? We'll just skip a full season in AAA! We'll hire Vince Coleman and just skip the natural maturation process that happens and try and have him learn how to read pitchers at the MLB level!

 

Micah is currently below replacement in fWAR so yea, he's not part of the solution. I keep bringing him up because on a team that is awful defensively they decided to keep arguably their best defensive infielder on AAA.

 

Ramirez is looking pretty toasty as well. I guess their scouts just missed that or assumed he could play SS until he turns 40.

 

And what else, they sign La Roche and talk about letting him play 1st base 2-3 times a week? How often is he playing 1B? Once a week?

 

They talk about getting better defensively but then you look at their decisions and you realize it's all hot air. If you want to talk about "calling me out" go ahead but I have articulated my position on Sanchez and Micah over and over and over again on this forum. You're free to go through my post history. So far, pretty much every single thing I predicted has come to pass with the two. Micah is struggling, making little to no impact, and the defense has been bottom 5 in MLB. Meanwhile, Sanchez proved in the spring and so far in AAA that he's MLB ready.

 

It's hard to argue with anything you stated here.

[southsider2k5]

The biggest firing the Sox have will likely be Jeff Samardjiza, Chris Sale, and Quintana firing the idiots who have been posing as them on the mound. Add to that April Alexei being fired, April LaRoche being fired (April is historically he worst month by a large margin), etc.

 

Once this team finally takes a deep breath and relaxes a bit, it will be OK.

[TaylorStSox]

I can't praise a GM for building such a pathetic defensive team. It's just so flawed. It's not like their bats can compensate either. If you're going to have a ton of offensive question marks on your roster, they better be able to pick it.

[LDF]

I like this post.

 

I remember thinking when all the splash moves were made in the offseason: now we're going to find out how real a manager Ventura is, since not having the talent underneath him has been the narrative.

 

I wonder if that's backwards. That the first move is manager because a manager can make the most of the stars but also bring the lesser names up to their full potential. At least I THINK that's what a manager's supposed to do.

 

It's interesting because somebody just mentioned the Garcia "experiment" but really, isn't Ventura the biggest "experiment" being tried here? And if the goal is "win now" and forget rebuilding, why would you decide this was the time to do such an experiment? I would think you'd "experiment" during rebuilding years, where there's no expectation to win and once the pieces are in place, you send the experiment manager on his way for a real manager--like, yes, the Cubs did.

 

If I had to guess and I don't know as much about the game as so many of you here, you're seeing the results of what is yes, very much a family business where family loyalty and politics are given more priority than executing on the field year after year. That whole Ozzie/Kenny thing at the end seemed like something out of Game of Thrones, with two sons trying to off the other to be the favorite of the father.

 

I feel like I've been watching the same thing for the better part of a decade: a few guys whose jersey you can buy with confidence (Abreu, Sale) surrounded by guys you won't remember in three years (save for Ramirez). I thought the plan was, one or two years ago, to rebuild and I was fine with that. But here we are back to "win now!" mode so we made a couple of splash moves but... yeah. Maybe Kenny looked at KC and thought we could emulate their success and it's just a few key moves away?

 

Because IIRC he seems to abhor the idea of a rebuilding year.

 

As for when will it change, the answer is simple I think: when Jerry passes the torch. Not sure if there's an heir there that would keep it in the family and do a Rocky Wirtz (please!), or if it means another owner entirely comes in.

 

But I've seen this film for years now and have no reason to believe it will change until that happens. 2005 was great but that was the exception, not the rule.

 

isn't the other part of a managers duties is to find a way to get players motivated in playing for him and the club.

 

another thing i would like to add, the sox are not the kind that will wait for a rebuild. we are the blue collars workers and we want the improvement to happen now. is it unrealistic. hell yeah, but we, the fans will not spend money to watch a team with no future.

[LDF]

I can't praise a GM for building such a pathetic defensive team. It's just so flawed. It's not like their bats can compensate either. If you're going to have a ton of offensive question marks on your roster, they better be able to pick it.

 

which GM, Hahn or KW???

[TaylorStSox]

which GM, Hahn or KW???

The GM of the team. The only plus defender on the entire team is a KW acquisition.

[pettie4sox]

The GM of the team. The only plus defender on the entire team is a KW acquisition.

 

Ramirez?

[ChiSoxFanMike]

If and when the Sox start winning, we'll look back and laugh how we all argued like a bunch of nitwits over nothing.

 

Winning games solves everything. It's only a matter of time when they'll turn it around. They're not that bad, they just had a horrible week.

[Eminor3rd]

Better question is what has Hahn put on the field to not show that he sucks at his job? I absolutely don't think he sucks, but so far, the results under his tenure have been terrible with very little progress being shown in multiple areas.

 

Right but the on-field product sucks because Sale/Abreu/etc. have sucked. If you're going to blame Hahn for this 8-14 start or whatever it is, you have to blame him for relying on those guys. I don't think ANY of us are ready to say that Hahn shouldn't have relied on Sale/Abreu/Eaton/Samardzija to put up good numbers.

 

If those guys would have had an April like we all expected and we were STILL 8-14, then you'd HAVE to blame Hahn for not putting enough depth on the field and letting the scrubs drag everyone down.

 

Right now, you HAVE to blame the players. Or you can blame the coaching staff if you believe that they didn't do enough to prepare the players, but I always hate to make an assumption like that based on no evidence.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[pettie4sox]

If and when the Sox start winning, we'll look back and laugh how we all argued like a bunch of nitwits over nothing.

 

Winning games solves everything. It's only a matter of time when they'll turn it around. They're not that bad, they just had a horrible week.

 

They slumped early. I am a firm believer in that. I still think they should s***can RV though.

[TaylorStSox]

Ramirez?

And he should have been moved a couple years ago.

 

I just don't understand Hahn's direction here. It's like he invested a ton of money to go from really bad to just mediocre with limited upside.

 

I'm generally pretty optimistic, but I just can't stand to watch a team that can't play defense.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

They slumped early. I am a firm believer in that. I still think they should s***can RV though.

You have no disagreement with me on your last point. These players are a lot more talented than they have shown so far, but Robin has been a subpar manager in his entire tenure with the Sox. Something needs to change. Whether it's Gardenhire, Ozzie again, whatever, they need a fresh face in the clubhouse. Robin is so laid back that he never gives incentive to the players to get any better.

[LDF]

Right but the on-field product sucks because Sale/Abreu/etc. have sucked. If you're going to blame Hahn for this 8-14 start or whatever it is, you have to blame him for relying on those guys. I don't think ANY of us are ready to say that Hahn shouldn't have relied on Sale/Abreu/Eaton/Samardzija to put up good numbers.

 

If those guys would have had an April like we all expected and we were STILL 8-14, then you'd HAVE to blame Hahn for not putting enough depth on the field and letting the scrubs drag everyone down.

 

Right now, you HAVE to blame the players. Or you can blame the coaching staff if you believe that they didn't do enough to prepare the players, but I always hate to make an assumption like that based on no evidence.

 

nice.... very nice.

 

one question, re the bold, wouldn't that be the managers of the team's job??

[LDF]

If and when the Sox start winning, we'll look back and laugh how we all argued like a bunch of nitwits over nothing.

 

Winning games solves everything. It's only a matter of time when they'll turn it around. They're not that bad, they just had a horrible week.

 

i am glad you are saying this, i truly hope you are right. but do you really think they can rally enuf to make up for the losses.

[TaylorStSox]

You hate a team with no defense but want to move Ramirez?

 

I don't know, I am not ready to make any judgments over this 22 game span but it's been ugly. It can only go up from here. I do expect Hahn to answer the bell and get us some combo of power and defense at C/3B for next year.

They should have moved Ramirez because they have no direction. Why keep an aging SS on a bad team?

[LDF]

And he should have been moved a couple years ago.

 

I just don't understand Hahn's direction here. It's like he invested a ton of money to go from really bad to just mediocre with limited upside.

 

I'm generally pretty optimistic, but I just can't stand to watch a team that can't play defense.

 

then who will manned the ss position. btw, the ss position is what order for the most important position on the field???

[southsider2k5]

You have no disagreement with me on your last point. These players are a lot more talented than they have shown so far, but Robin has been a subpar manager in his entire tenure with the Sox. Something needs to change. Whether it's Gardenhire, Ozzie again, whatever, they need a fresh face in the clubhouse. Robin is so laid back that he never gives incentive to the players to get any better.

 

The problem isn't this team is too laid back. It is that they are wound too tight.

 

And seriously, the idea that a manager would have to give "incentive" to a team to get better is just silly. This is the major leagues. If you can find incentive in things like "winning" and huge f***ing contracts, you aren't cut out for baseball.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

i am glad you are saying this, i truly hope you are right. but do you really think they can rally enuf to make up for the losses.

Maybe they can, maybe they can't; we'll just have to see what happens.

 

All I know is this: The Sox are a lot better than they played this week. Whether they can play catch-up and leapfrog the Tigers and KC is yet to be seen, but I think they'll at least make it interesting. The 2nd Wild Card spot gives them more of a chance. They're only a few games out, right?