The White Sox Looming Decision

[ChiSoxFanMike]

The problem isn't this team is too laid back. It is that they are wound too tight.

 

And seriously, the idea that a manager would have to give "incentive" to a team to get better is just silly. This is the major leagues. If you can find incentive in things like "winning" and huge f***ing contracts, you aren't cut out for baseball.

I may have worded it poorly, but that's what I was trying to get across. It looks like all these players want to do is to show up, play poorly, and then collect their check. I would think a manager should get his team to want to win, and not just focus on themselves and individuality.

[TaylorStSox]

then who will manned the ss position. btw, the ss position is what order for the most important position on the field???

You're missing the point. The organization invested in flawed players to go from bad to mediocre. It reminds me of something the Mets would do. They should have focused on rebuilding the core. Right now, your young core is a slap hitting RF that weighs 250 pounds and is laughably bad on defense, a chronically injured slap hitting CF and a slap hitting 2nd baseman that can't hit a fastball and has poor baserunning technique to go along with bad hands.. That's not a core to build around IMO. Obviously, I'm not including Sale, Quintana and Abreu. I don't see the other players as anything worth building around or being major contributors.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

You're missing the point. The organization invested in flawed players to go from bad to mediocre. It reminds me of something the Mets would do. They should have focused on rebuilding the core. Right now, your young core is a slap hitting RF that weighs 250 pounds and is laughably bad on defense, a chronically injured slap hitting CF and a slap hitting 2nd baseman that can't hit a fastball and has poor baserunning technique to go along with bad hands.. That's not a core to build around IMO. Obviously, I'm not including Sale, Quintana and Abreu. I don't see the other players as anything worth building around or being major contributors.

What about Rodon, Sanchez, Montas, Anderson, Danish, etc? Aren't those all players that are worth building around? Obviously none of them will likely be superstar quality (except for Rodon maybe), but they're all young, talented players that should be part of the core IMO.

[GreenSox]

And he should have been moved a couple years ago.

 

I just don't understand Hahn's direction here. It's like he invested a ton of money to go from really bad to just mediocre with limited upside.

 

I'm generally pretty optimistic, but I just can't stand to watch a team that can't play defense.

It's highly questionable that this is Hahn's direction. Williams rarely had a stout defensive team and when they did they peeled them away.

Ramirez certainly should have been traded this offseason but the Sox don't sell high or reasonably high unless it's fruitless to do otherwise.

Micah should get some outfield work and Sanchez should be up and Rodon down.

[GreenSox]

And he should have been moved a couple years ago.

 

I just don't understand Hahn's direction here. It's like he invested a ton of money to go from really bad to just mediocre with limited upside.

 

I'm generally pretty optimistic, but I just can't stand to watch a team that can't play defense.

It's highly questionable that this is Hahn's direction. Williams rarely had a stout defensive team and when they did they peeled them away.

Ramirez certainly should have been traded this offseason but the Sox don't sell high or reasonably high unless it's fruitless to do otherwise.

Micah should get some outfield work and Sanchez should be up and Rodon down.

Trade shark and alexei (once rehabilitated) and maybe even Quintana.

[Lillian]

Do most of you gentleman really think that the front office did such a terrible job, this past off season? I thought that most of the analysts felt that the Sox had made

real significant strides, to improve the team. Most of the posters on this forum seemed to like the moves, as well. I myself, was pretty enthused, coming in to the season.

The only move that I haven't really been happy with was the La Roche signing. The rest of the moves looked good at the time, and I'm still confident that the new players will

significantly contribute. The problem is that this start is going to be very difficult to overcome.

 

The other thing about which I'm a little confused is all of the criticism of Avi Garcia. He has been touted as a potential 5 tool player, and he's really been the best hitter the

Sox have had, so far this season. I like his approach, at the plate, and suspect that his natural power will eventually emerge. In the meantime, he's squaring up a lot of pitches,

and using the whole field. He's hitting .328 vs. RHP and .400 vs. LHP. He'll almost certainly start driving in more runs, when the guys in front of him start hitting. I just think

that he is one of the bright spots, rather than one of our problems.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Lillian

[Balta1701]

What about Rodon, Sanchez, Montas, Anderson, Danish, etc? Aren't those all players that are worth building around? Obviously none of them will likely be superstar quality (except for Rodon maybe), but they're all young, talented players that should be part of the core IMO.

If your core is guys who are in AA and AAA then you shouldn't be spending $50 million on guys for this season.

[LDF]

The problem isn't this team is too laid back. It is that they are wound too tight.

 

And seriously, the idea that a manager would have to give "incentive" to a team to get better is just silly. This is the major leagues. If you can find incentive in things like "winning" and huge f***ing contracts, you aren't cut out for baseball.

i agree that they are really wound too tight.

 

but i disagree that the manager have to give incentive, i would assume you mean to get better or perform better. last nite or this morning i was reading on manager who could be a good incentive for the sox to look into at the end of the season.

 

i keep hearing of the really good managers who are tough, don't take crap or excuses and is among the biggest cheerleaders to motivate the team. but i am sorry to say, b/c they sign a contract, they still need incentive to perform.

 

that is why there is such a thing called team chemistry.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

If your core is guys who are in AA and AAA then you shouldn't be spending $50 million on guys for this season.

I'm just saying those guys are complementary pieces. The guys signed for $50 million are a part of the long term plans too, so the young guys can eventually make an impact in the big leagues with the mainstays on the team.

[fathom]

If your core is guys who are in AA and AAA then you shouldn't be spending $50 million on guys for this season.

 

To me, the core of this franchise is Sale, Q, Rodon, Abreu and Avi. It would be great if all of them play a high level the rest of the way, as it would make going into next season a lot easier for Hahn.

[LDF]

You hate a team with no defense but want to move Ramirez?

 

I don't know, I am not ready to make any judgments over this 22 game span but it's been ugly. It can only go up from here. I do expect Hahn to answer the bell and get us some combo of power and defense at C/3B for next year.

 

i am with you, this is as ugly as it can get. every fan prob has reach that frustration level. i know i have, but this team with whatever fixes the team manages to pull out, we the fans as to ride it out. that is what makes us the die hard fans.

 

 

[LDF]

I may have worded it poorly, but that's what I was trying to get across. It looks like all these players want to do is to show up, play poorly, and then collect their check. I would think a manager should get his team to want to win, and not just focus on themselves and individuality.

 

that is the problem. none of the players are doing that. they are really trying hard.

[southsider2k5]

I may have worded it poorly, but that's what I was trying to get across. It looks like all these players want to do is to show up, play poorly, and then collect their check. I would think a manager should get his team to want to win, and not just focus on themselves and individuality.

 

Watching these games I think the opposite. Thinking of a few plays off of the top of my head...

 

Eaton's last game where he took a throw and airmailed everyone throwing the ball from CF all of the way to the screen past home plate. If he wasn't worried about the runner, he would have lollipoped one into the cut off man. He wouldn't have pressed and tried to get the guy at home.

 

Danks two errors yesterday were both trying to make a big play. The DP he threw away would have been an easy toss for the out at first. Instead he was trying to end the big inning by turning a DP.

 

Micah Johnson trying to turn a DP yesterday. If he didn't care, he would have made the easy play at 1B.

 

The game in Baltimore, Abreu threw a ball away trying to turn a grounder to first into a 3-6-3 double play. The lazy play was at 1B.

 

Think of all the extra bases this team has been thrown out trying to take this year. I team that didn't care just stays put, and doesn't try to stretch.

 

Again, I see no crimes of not caring. I see crimes of trying too hard.

[LDF]

You're missing the point. The organization invested in flawed players to go from bad to mediocre. It reminds me of something the Mets would do. They should have focused on rebuilding the core. Right now, your young core is a slap hitting RF that weighs 250 pounds and is laughably bad on defense, a chronically injured slap hitting CF and a slap hitting 2nd baseman that can't hit a fastball and has poor baserunning technique to go along with bad hands.. That's not a core to build around IMO. Obviously, I'm not including Sale, Quintana and Abreu. I don't see the other players as anything worth building around or being major contributors.

 

i don't think the owners will knowingly invest in mediocre players. they may invest in offensive players who is lacking on defense. but i think they thought they could overcome the defense.

[LDF]

It's highly questionable that this is Hahn's direction. Williams rarely had a stout defensive team and when they did they peeled them away.

Ramirez certainly should have been traded this offseason but the Sox don't sell high or reasonably high unless it's fruitless to do otherwise.

Micah should get some outfield work and Sanchez should be up and Rodon down.

 

Ramirez was not going no where unless the sox had a viable option at ss, which they didn't. same thing for next yr, esp if the sox don't have a viable person at 3b.

[Balta1701]

I'm just saying those guys are complementary pieces. The guys signed for $50 million are a part of the long term plans too, so the young guys can eventually make an impact in the big leagues with the mainstays on the team.

If you've got guys in AA and AAA and you're counting on them to "make a big impact in the next 2 years", you're doing it wrong, especially with this franchise where guys get rushed so much they need a lot of time to adapt to the bigs.

[LDF]

If you've got guys in AA and AAA and you're counting on them to "make a big impact in the next 2 years", you're doing it wrong, especially with this franchise where guys get rushed so much they need a lot of time to adapt to the bigs.

 

i have never really thought of that. i got to think about that in the future.

 

great point !!!!!

[Balta1701]

i have never really thought of that. i got to think about that in the future.

 

great point !!!!!

And yes, maybe Rodon could be the exception.

[LDF]

If you've got guys in AA and AAA and you're counting on them to "make a big impact in the next 2 years", you're doing it wrong, especially with this franchise where guys get rushed so much they need a lot of time to adapt to the bigs.

 

let me ask this, totally unrelated to this discussion.

 

is it wrong then to rush the prospects ??? i was reading last nite of some org not rushing enuf but sitting on them for extra time, time to mature. i never thought of it until i read your point.

[LDF]

And yes, maybe Rodon could be the exception.

 

i rather keep him out of this, b/c of the influence of his agent. that is the wildcard.

[Balta1701]

let me ask this, totally unrelated to this discussion.

 

is it wrong then to rush the prospects ??? i was reading last nite of some org not rushing enuf but sitting on them for extra time, time to mature. i never thought of it until i read your point.

The White Sox believe that the best thing for the development of a prospect is to push them until they reach a level where they struggle. Once they're at that point, they believe that is when the struggling prospect can be worked with to correct those issues.

 

IMO their ultimate test of this is Courtney Hawkins.

 

I personally am unconvinced by this philosophy and I don't think the evidence is that it has been successful for this franchise at all. In fact, I feel the guys who actually are making the big leagues and having success are the guys who had someone else in their way and were forced to stay down in the minors longer - Semien got stuck there last year once Gillaspie and Beckham were back, Eduardo Escobar got a full year in Charlotte before coming up as a bench player and then was worked in the minors by the Twins again before he had a really solid 2014 campaign. OTOH we're watching Micah who leapfrogged AAA almost completely unsurprisingly need time to adapt to the bigs.

[LDF]

The White Sox believe that the best thing for the development of a prospect is to push them until they reach a level where they struggle. Once they're at that point, they believe that is when the struggling prospect can be worked with to correct those issues.

 

IMO their ultimate test of this is Courtney Hawkins.

 

I personally am unconvinced by this philosophy and I don't think the evidence is that it has been successful for this franchise at all. In fact, I feel the guys who actually are making the big leagues and having success are the guys who had someone else in their way and were forced to stay down in the minors longer - Semien got stuck there last year once Gillaspie and Beckham were back, Eduardo Escobar got a full year in Charlotte before coming up as a bench player and then was worked in the minors by the Twins again before he had a really solid 2014 campaign. OTOH we're watching Micah who leapfrogged AAA almost completely unsurprisingly need time to adapt to the bigs.

 

pretty much on the philosophy of some of the team i was reading about. again, this must be really thought out for my big noggin to comprehend.

 

i love it, i learned something new.

 

so in essence, b/c a prospect comes up and does well, the team need to be cautious for a set back.

[caulfield12]

The White Sox believe that the best thing for the development of a prospect is to push them until they reach a level where they struggle. Once they're at that point, they believe that is when the struggling prospect can be worked with to correct those issues.

 

IMO their ultimate test of this is Courtney Hawkins.

 

I personally am unconvinced by this philosophy and I don't think the evidence is that it has been successful for this franchise at all. In fact, I feel the guys who actually are making the big leagues and having success are the guys who had someone else in their way and were forced to stay down in the minors longer - Semien got stuck there last year once Gillaspie and Beckham were back, Eduardo Escobar got a full year in Charlotte before coming up as a bench player and then was worked in the minors by the Twins again before he had a really solid 2014 campaign. OTOH we're watching Micah who leapfrogged AAA almost completely unsurprisingly need time to adapt to the bigs.

 

 

That's why I have SOME hopes for Erik Johnson, although they're not going to return to pre-2014 levels. Same with Matt Davidson, to a lesser extent.

 

And realistically, if you look at how long it took for Crede and Rowand to become everyday players, over a 2-3 year timeframe at the big league level, that's the ideal way to do it.

 

The other big examples had fatal flaws (Borchard), couldn't hit a fastball (Fields/Viciedo) or control the strike zone and swinging at pitches out of it, couldn't hit well enough to justify his defense (Anderson) or just failed for a number of mystery reasons, like Beckham.

 

With Beckham, you can say he changes or changed mechanics too frequently, lacking in confidence, overthinking, went through too many position changes, was never allowed to experience failure and overcome it at the minor league level...or maybe simply the fact that a lot of college hitters can look great (especially with aluminum bats) but it doesn't translate at the next level with superior competition (see Alex Gordon for another example of how long it took for THE best college hitter to adapt, part of it was also the pressure to be "the next George Brett" and play 3B).

 

Or the "Ozzie hated him" theory some have used with Anderson/Beckham. Fallback option.

Edited May 5, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Anything those in bold contribute at the big league level would be considered a plus, in my opinion. If those 6 are considered the future.......then yikes!!!!!!!

 

 

Just to be clear, I meant Erik Johnson and not Micah Johnson.

 

[RockRaines]

Lol. Now the payroll is too high? This is how you know you aren't thinking straight.