The White Sox Looming Decision

[oldsox]

Watching these games I think the opposite. Thinking of a few plays off of the top of my head...

 

Eaton's last game where he took a throw and airmailed everyone throwing the ball from CF all of the way to the screen past home plate. If he wasn't worried about the runner, he would have lollipoped one into the cut off man. He wouldn't have pressed and tried to get the guy at home.

 

Danks two errors yesterday were both trying to make a big play. The DP he threw away would have been an easy toss for the out at first. Instead he was trying to end the big inning by turning a DP.

 

Micah Johnson trying to turn a DP yesterday. If he didn't care, he would have made the easy play at 1B.

 

The game in Baltimore, Abreu threw a ball away trying to turn a grounder to first into a 3-6-3 double play. The lazy play was at 1B.

 

Think of all the extra bases this team has been thrown out trying to take this year. I team that didn't care just stays put, and doesn't try to stretch.

 

Again, I see no crimes of not caring. I see crimes of trying too hard.

I was reading an article on the Rockies yesterday, and it mentioned that they had the second worst base running stats in MLB. Second to the White Sox, of course. I don't know what goes into that stat, however.

[RockRaines]

I was reading an article on the Rockies yesterday, and it mentioned that they had the second worst base running stats in MLB. Second to the White Sox, of course. I don't know what goes into that stat, however.

The eye test tells me the Sox are horrible. They give up way too many outs on the basepaths and dont save enough in the field. They do not give enough value to outs at the moment.

[Jake]

I was reading an article on the Rockies yesterday, and it mentioned that they had the second worst base running stats in MLB. Second to the White Sox, of course. I don't know what goes into that stat, however.

 

Assuming it's UBR where the Sox rank last by a large margin, every baserunning event is assigned a run value. If you steal second base, the chance of scoring a run goes up by X amount, so that goes towards your baserunning value. If you don't take third on a single when others would, your chances of scoring go down by Y amount, so that will knock down your running tally.

[chisoxt]

The eye test tells me the Sox are horrible. They give up way too many outs on the basepaths and dont save enough in the field. They do not give enough value to outs at the moment.

When are we going to admit that practically every organization in baseball is better than us in evaluating, drafting and developing talent. And they should be. While our brilliant GM was scoffing at other organizations who were embracing advanced metrics and investing money in younger players, we were wasting resources in acquiring players like Rios, Dunn and Peavy on teams nowhere close to contending. How many times on the draft have we bypassed talent that we did not want to pay for, instead reaching for toolsy and grindy players that we could get on the cheap.

 

I liked the moves that Rick made in the offseason. But as we are learning, it's very hard to short circuit the rebuilding process

[LDF]

When are we going to admit that practically every organization in baseball is better than us in evaluating, drafting and developing talent. And they should be. While our brilliant GM was scoffing at other organizations who were embracing advanced metrics and investing money in younger players, we were wasting resources in acquiring players like Rios, Dunn and Peavy on teams nowhere close to contending. How many times on the draft have we bypassed talent that we did not want to pay for, instead reaching for toolsy and grindy players that we could get on the cheap.

 

I liked the moves that Rick made in the offseason. But as we are learning, it's very hard to short circuit the rebuilding process

 

in the development stage of developing prospects, i disagree with the success of the pitching staff.

 

but the rest, you are right hands down.

[Eminor3rd]

nice.... very nice.

 

one question, re the bold, wouldn't that be the managers of the team's job??

 

Possibly. But we don't know, really. It could be a result of poor team prep on the manager's side, or it could just be that those guys are sucking. That's why I've always stayed off the "FIRE RV" bandwagon -- I don't like to draw conclusions without evidence to believe them. Just because it's plausible doesn't mean it's any more likely than any other outcome. I prefer to blame the players, because I KNOW that they can affect their own performance and preparation.

[caulfield12]

Possibly. But we don't know, really. It could be a result of poor team prep on the manager's side, or it could just be that those guys are sucking. That's why I've always stayed off the "FIRE RV" bandwagon -- I don't like to draw conclusions without evidence to believe them. Just because it's plausible doesn't mean it's any more likely than any other outcome. I prefer to blame the players, because I KNOW that they can affect their own performance and preparation.

 

 

Because believing the players are all terrible (getting worse) or than Hahn made a slew of mistakes (other than Robertson) is just too terrible to contemplate.

 

It's psychology 101.

 

We want to believe that a new manager could come in (just like 2012) and instantly make this team competitive again.

 

Otherwise, we're talking about another half decade of struggles/irrelevance, new GM, etc.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Because believing the players are all terrible (getting worse) or than Hahn made a slew of mistakes (other than Robertson) is just too terrible to contemplate.

 

It's psychology 101.

 

We want to believe that a new manager could come in (just like 2012) and instantly make this team competitive again.

 

Otherwise, we're talking about another half decade of struggles/irrelevance, new GM, etc.

 

I don't think he'd come and make us great but I think he could fix some things and change the mentality. Whatever Robins doing, it isn't working.

[Eminor3rd]

Because believing the players are all terrible (getting worse) or than Hahn made a slew of mistakes (other than Robertson) is just too terrible to contemplate.

 

It's psychology 101.

 

We want to believe that a new manager could come in (just like 2012) and instantly make this team competitive again.

 

Otherwise, we're talking about another half decade of struggles/irrelevance, new GM, etc.

 

The most likely scenario is simply that the players have been playing like s***, because history tells us that players often, for no good reason, play like s***. The good news is that those players will probably stop playing like s*** at some point soonish, but the bad news is that we still have all these losses in the bank.

 

But yeah, you're right -- the manager seems like the scapegoat that's the easiest to remove, and since we don't really have any idea how to tell what type of impact the manager is having, we can find hope in the fact that no one can prove that it ISN'T him. Therefore, RV is an easy target.

[caulfield12]

The most likely scenario is simply that the players have been playing like s***, because history tells us that players often, for no good reason, play like s***. The good news is that those players will probably stop playing like s*** at some point soonish, but the bad news is that we still have all these losses in the bank.

 

But yeah, you're right -- the manager seems like the scapegoat that's the easiest to remove, and since we don't really have any idea how to tell what type of impact the manager is having, we can find hope in the fact that no one can prove that it ISN'T him. Therefore, RV is an easy target.

 

Which then morphs into the.....JR/KW/Hahn triumvirate, and then who's actually the one deciding what. And of course we don't have any answers there, either, just more conjecture. So then everyone has their own agenda, depending on something simple as like/dislike or perception of the various individuals involved...which leads to more endless arguments where nobody has a way to "prove" anything beyond their own conjecture and tidbits of "insider" knowledge from time to time.

 

It's one major source of frustration with the entire board. Knowing who to hold accountable.

Edited May 5, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-leag...-001755837.html

 

Is it time for the White Sox to fire Robin Ventura? This article argues no, he needs more time and patience.

 

Over that period (2012-2014), Ventura hasn't really shown any glaring strategies as a manager. His teams haven't led the league in sacrifice bunt attempts or hit and runs. He's pretty boring, actually, but that's fitting considering his personality. In this case, though, that laid back style hurts Ventura in the eyes of the fans. With the slow start, people are going to be looking to Ventura to fire up his team with some type of impassioned speech. That's just not something he's going to do, especially in public or with the media.

 

It's easy to say, "this team needs a fire lit under them," but it's impossible to know whether a fiery tirade is suddenly going to make Adam LaRoche hit better, or get the defense to stop making errors.

 

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-leag...-175528317.html

 

Top 5 managers on the "hot seat," a bit ominous that Ventura's first, and followed next by Price after his expletive-filled tirade...also Gibbons, Redmond (Loria's managers are always in constant danger) and Matt Williams of the disappointing Nats.

[LDF]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-leag...-001755837.html

 

Is it time for the White Sox to fire Robin Ventura? This article argues no, he needs more time and patience.

 

Over that period (2012-2014), Ventura hasn't really shown any glaring strategies as a manager. His teams haven't led the league in sacrifice bunt attempts or hit and runs. He's pretty boring, actually, but that's fitting considering his personality. In this case, though, that laid back style hurts Ventura in the eyes of the fans. With the slow start, people are going to be looking to Ventura to fire up his team with some type of impassioned speech. That's just not something he's going to do, especially in public or with the media.

 

It's easy to say, "this team needs a fire lit under them," but it's impossible to know whether a fiery tirade is suddenly going to make Adam LaRoche hit better, or get the defense to stop making errors.

 

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-leag...-175528317.html

 

Top 5 managers on the "hot seat," a bit ominous that Ventura's first, and followed next by Price after his expletive-filled tirade...also Gibbons, Redmond (Loria's managers are always in constant danger) and Matt Williams of the disappointing Nats.

 

nice find.

[greg775]

The most likely scenario is simply that the players have been playing like s***, because history tells us that players often, for no good reason, play like s***. The good news is that those players will probably stop playing like s*** at some point soonish, but the bad news is that we still have all these losses in the bank.

 

But yeah, you're right -- the manager seems like the scapegoat that's the easiest to remove, and since we don't really have any idea how to tell what type of impact the manager is having, we can find hope in the fact that no one can prove that it ISN'T him. Therefore, RV is an easy target.

Thing is, the manager has to be the scapegoat here because of how badly the Sox are losing. Blowouts galore and just plain s***ty baseball. Even Hawk and Stoney sound depressed and/or amazed at the ineptitude so early in the season. I mean this franchise has got to stop playing such horrific baseball that it's been playing for quite a while now, really since Ozzie's last season. Bizarre losses. Even now we have this great closer and we can't get games to him cause of pathetic baseball. Robin should be blamed and he must be fired soon.

[caulfield12]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/baseball/7/71/...stand-white-sox

 

On Monday, fans already were calling for a managerial change. The Sox’ front office was not a happy place Monday, but firing Ventura isn’t likely under chairman Jerry Reinsdorf’s watch, the big-league executive said.

 

‘‘[Adam] LaRoche, [Alexei] Ramirez, Eaton, [Jose] Abreu, [John] Danks, Sale and Samardzija need to pick it up,’’ he said. ‘‘There is no way Jerry Reinsdorf is going to fire Robin Ventura. He’s too loyal.’’

 

Great, we're probably headed for a "lame duck," lost season. If nothing else, a new manager when the team is psychologically out of the race could at least give the front office a better read on how the team will perform going forward...how much of it is lack of talent/aging veterans and how much of it is attributable to some other variable or "human factor."

Edited May 5, 2015 by caulfield12

[LDF]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/baseball/7/71/...stand-white-sox

 

On Monday, fans already were calling for a managerial change. The Sox’ front office was not a happy place Monday, but firing Ventura isn’t likely under chairman Jerry Reinsdorf’s watch, the big-league executive said.

 

‘‘[Adam] LaRoche, [Alexei] Ramirez, Eaton, [Jose] Abreu, [John] Danks, Sale and Samardzija need to pick it up,’’ he said. ‘‘There is no way Jerry Reinsdorf is going to fire Robin Ventura. He’s too loyal.’’

 

Great, we're probably headed for a "lame duck," lost season. If nothing else, a new manager when the team is psychologically out of the race could at least give the front office a better read on how the team will perform going forward...how much of it is lack of talent/aging veterans and how much of it is attributable to some other variable or "human factor."

 

first, i kinda like it that the msg is getting out there.

 

but not doing anything, well that is sooo typical of the sox to do. either way, keep up the good work soxtalk.

[LDF]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/baseball/7/71/...stand-white-sox

 

On Monday, fans already were calling for a managerial change. The Sox’ front office was not a happy place Monday, but firing Ventura isn’t likely under chairman Jerry Reinsdorf’s watch, the big-league executive said.

 

‘‘[Adam] LaRoche, [Alexei] Ramirez, Eaton, [Jose] Abreu, [John] Danks, Sale and Samardzija need to pick it up,’’ he said. ‘‘There is no way Jerry Reinsdorf is going to fire Robin Ventura. He’s too loyal.’’

 

Great, we're probably headed for a "lame duck," lost season. If nothing else, a new manager when the team is psychologically out of the race could at least give the front office a better read on how the team will perform going forward...how much of it is lack of talent/aging veterans and how much of it is attributable to some other variable or "human factor."

 

i just remembered, he should accept part of the blame as well, not allowing the rebuilding to finished. so in essence, he created this whole fiasco. re being too loyal, then get used to this outrage, b/c he again created that as well.

 

the FO is calling out the players to be accountable, where is the owners sense of being accountable as well. they should step up and lead by example. passing the buck is a typical move. don't get me wrong, look at the stats, they, the players are equally responsible as well. but to throw them under the bus without accepting part of the blame. nice example of a leader.

 

no wonder this team never won more championship.

[Y2Jimmy0]

When are we going to admit that practically every organization in baseball is better than us in evaluating, drafting and developing talent. And they should be. While our brilliant GM was scoffing at other organizations who were embracing advanced metrics and investing money in younger players, we were wasting resources in acquiring players like Rios, Dunn and Peavy on teams nowhere close to contending. How many times on the draft have we bypassed talent that we did not want to pay for, instead reaching for toolsy and grindy players that we could get on the cheap.

 

I liked the moves that Rick made in the offseason. But as we are learning, it's very hard to short circuit the rebuilding process

 

 

This is more of a Reinsdorf issue than a Kenny Williams issue.

[Dick Allen]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/baseball/7/71/...stand-white-sox

 

On Monday, fans already were calling for a managerial change. The Sox’ front office was not a happy place Monday, but firing Ventura isn’t likely under chairman Jerry Reinsdorf’s watch, the big-league executive said.

 

‘‘[Adam] LaRoche, [Alexei] Ramirez, Eaton, [Jose] Abreu, [John] Danks, Sale and Samardzija need to pick it up,’’ he said. ‘‘There is no way Jerry Reinsdorf is going to fire Robin Ventura. He’s too loyal.’’

 

Great, we're probably headed for a "lame duck," lost season. If nothing else, a new manager when the team is psychologically out of the race could at least give the front office a better read on how the team will perform going forward...how much of it is lack of talent/aging veterans and how much of it is attributable to some other variable or "human factor."

LOL. You said the season was over 3 weeks ago.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

LOL. You said the season was over 3 weeks ago.

 

Just like fangraphs is currently saying the odds of winning the division are 2% and odds of making it as a wildcard are 3%. (On the plus side, we're still rated ahead of Minnesota somehow, despite this past weekend, and Texas).

 

You have Dave Cameron and sportswriters/media now speculating about Ventura's job status and dealing Samardzija and Ramirez.

 

If the season isn't close to being over, you're not very familiar with poor White Sox starts that ended in the playoffs outside of 1983, when there were fewer teams to pass in the AL West (3 versus 4).

 

You also said "this bullpen is nails!" Which one is closer to being accurate, the White Sox will miss the playoffs for the 8th consecutive season or the bullpen will finish in the Top 3-5 in the AL in any statistical category you care to choose (ERA, WHIP, FIP, etc.)

Edited May 5, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Just like fangraphs is currently saying the odds of winning the division are 2% and odds of making it as a wildcard are 3%. (On the plus side, we're still rated ahead of Minnesota somehow, despite this past weekend, and Texas).

 

You have Dave Cameron and sportswriters/media now speculating about Ventura's job status and dealing Samardzija and Ramirez.

 

If the season isn't close to being over, you're not very familiar with poor White Sox starts that ended in the playoffs outside of 1983, when there were fewer teams to pass in the AL West (3 versus 4).

 

You also said "this bullpen is nails!" Which one is closer to being accurate, the White Sox will miss the playoffs for the 8th consecutive season or the bullpen will finish in the Top 3-5 in the AL in any statistical category you care to choose (ERA, WHIP, FIP, etc.)

When will you ever realize, Dave Cameron's opinion, and sportswriters opinions, and message board posters opinions don't factor into personnel and managerial decisons.

 

The bullpen is nails. You get so caught up in stats 22 games in, where one or 2 outings, especially in games that have already been decided, warp overall numbers.

 

If the season is over like you proclaimed weeks ago, whoever is managing doesn't matter. So quit crying about it. They don't listen to you anyway or they would have traded for Homer Bailey by now.

[Balta1701]

The bullpen is nails. You get so caught up in stats 22 games in, where one or 2 outings, especially in games that have already been decided, warp overall numbers.

Um...So based on your statement, declaring that the bullpen is "nails" is a very dicey statement as well because all it takes is 1 bad outing for that to no longer be true?

[LDF]

Um...So based on your statement, declaring that the bullpen is "nails" is a very dicey statement as well because all it takes is 1 bad outing for that to no longer be true?

 

a perfect example of paradox. i love it.

[Dick Allen]

Um...So based on your statement, declaring that the bullpen is "nails" is a very dicey statement as well because all it takes is 1 bad outing for that to no longer be true?

No, the bullpen is nails. When Scott Carroll gets lit up pitching as the long man his 3rd game in about a week, that really doesn't count in a 13-3 game.

 

The bullpen is beyond fine. I know, White Sox fans are supposed to say everything and everyone suck.

 

I think the focus should be why does Chris Sale and Jeff Samardizasaaa give up a combined 17 runs in their last starts? And why is scoring 3 runs considered an offensive explosion?

 

Soxtalk gets its targets and never lets go. If the offense was this bad 4 years ago, it wasn't the manager who had to get fired, it wasn't the front office that was so stupid, it was clearly the hitting coach being bad at his job.

 

Now, the starters all suck. Any heat on the pitching coach? The offense is as bad as it's been for decades. Any heat on the hitting coach? In fact, I have seen both mentioned as replacements for the current manager.

 

The White Sox will get better. Some won't agree, but that's OK. Many of them prefer losing anyway.

[Balta1701]

No, the bullpen is nails. When Scott Carroll gets lit up pitching as the long man his 3rd game in about a week, that really doesn't count in a 13-3 game.

 

The bullpen is beyond fine. I know, White Sox fans are supposed to say everything and everyone suck.

 

I think the focus should be why does Chris Sale and Jeff Samardizasaaa give up a combined 17 runs in their last starts? And why is scoring 3 runs considered an offensive explosion?

 

Soxtalk gets its targets and never lets go. If the offense was this bad 4 years ago, it wasn't the manager who had to get fired, it wasn't the front office that was so stupid, it was clearly the hitting coach being bad at his job.

 

Now, the starters all suck. Any heat on the pitching coach? The offense is as bad as it's been for decades. Any heat on the hitting coach? In fact, I have seen both mentioned as replacements for the current manager.

 

The White Sox will get better. Some won't agree, but that's OK. Many of them prefer losing anyway.

Basically all of this does the exact same error you said you can't do a moment ago.

 

And no, neither Coop nor Steverson are good candidates to replace this manager and I am genuinely starting to wonder based on the starting rotation if Coop's methods are tiring out in this city. However, how can you put heat on the pitching coach? As you said, "the bullpen is nails and that's 100% not going to change" so that's clearly a huge success for the pitching coach right?

[caulfield12]

Well, if we selectively decide not to include anyone whose stats we don't like or whose numbers were accumulated in blowouts, then the bullpen is great.

 

I suppose the retort will be that Don Cooper is responsible for the starters exclusively and that our bullpen coach and catcher/s are the reason that Robertson's so good.

 

Wait, he was actually pretty good before he came to Chicago, good enough to be one of the top 3-5 highest paid closers in baseball. I guess we have to throw out the outing Petricka had too, because we were losing....and anything Drabek did, so basically the bullpen is only good when we're winning or tied.

 

 

11th/14 BAA

6th/14 OPS

9th/14 WHIP

9th/14 Defense Independent Pitching

Edited May 5, 2015 by caulfield12