The White Sox Looming Decision

[RockRaines]

Yes sir. The Sox have MI depth so trading Ramirez first makes the most sense, not that Ramirez is easily replaceable. I would be fine with giving Sanchez a shot at SS. This is based on the Sox being out of it by the trade dead line, for now, I take a wait and see approach.

 

If certain Sox players end up increasing their decreased trade value, the Sox may end up playing better baseball because of it ( they should) and change our perspectives on the state of the team.

I'd put Anderson right into the SS position now if we want to serve youth.

[BlackSox13]

I'd put Anderson right into the SS position now if we want to serve youth.

I'd go with Sanchez for 2015 while Anderson works on getting his defense up to speed. I think Anderson could get a legit shot next year though. Again, that's if the Sox were to go the youth route. I still have some hope that things can turn around. 6 games under this early in the season is not cause for panic.

[he gone.]

I've tried to stay positive as long as I could. And thank god for the Bulls and Blackhawks playing almost every night to get me through this, but I am at my tipping point. It seems like every year we get off to the worst starts. We blame it on the cold weather, the unforeseen off days (Balt, rain outs etc.), other teams are just off to quick starts, etc.

 

This just deflects the true problems of our team. Don't we have one of the highest if not the highest first pitch swinging statistics? Don't we see fewer balls than anybody else in the MLB? Why is our rookie of all players seeing the best plate appearances? There are problems with this team.. and here is my ranking:

 

1) Our #4 and 5 starter. I don't care how much money Danks makes -- he's not worth a spot in the rotation. He should be a middle reliever. If he was being paid $500,000 a year we'd all say cut him or put him Carroll's role. Sunk cost. Play to win the game.

2) Defense -- rule one of baseball -- you have to catch the ball... okay, I'm not Hawk. But it needs to be better. We're stuck with the outfield we have. Those guys aren't going to get any better. It's not going to improve at 3B or 2B either (Minus bringing up Sanchez at 2b -- which I'm a proponent of.

3) 3B and Catcher. Again - nothing is going to change. But Beckham -- who couldn't get a MLB job, is again starting in our infield a ton. I don't think Conor is THE problem, I think hes average to below average.

4) Coaching -- keep saying its the players faults. But then why even have a coach. Fundamentally we suck. I dont think I've had confidence over the past 5 years that we can lay down a bunt when necessary. 1st and 2nd nobody out? How many of you have confidence we can move those guys over? 1st and 3rd, 1 out, what are your thoughts that we can successfully move them in? get em on, get em over, get em in. Sorry I start today with the firing of Steverson as a wake up call. End of May, fire Robin. Not the end of the year so that PR wise it looks better. We play to win the game!

 

 

Now again, I dont think we're as bad as we are. However we keep digging a hole. Our Bullpen is good. Our starting pitching will be fine --- minus Danks. I think Noesi can even be a decent #5. But still missing a pitcher. That'll be Rodon ..... NEXT YEAR. He's not the solution either. He's only the solution when were so far out of it. Our bats will be fine.

 

Our defense and fundamentals will not.

 

I don't want to lose all credibility with my next statement. So take with a grain of salt. But eff it, lets try something crazy. Move Abreu to 3rd, LaRoche to 1b, Micah to DH, Sanchez to play 2b. I get that we are losing Defense at 3rd. But we are gaining at second and up the middle and still keeping the speed of Micah. LaRoche might snap out of it not just being delegated to the DH position. Again... like I said, not the brightest idea.. but they were talking about Abreu at 3b in interleague.. so why not something different to snap out of this...?

[Eminor3rd]

Considering Cameron pretty much runs fangraphs which likes to mention sample size from time to time, I find it odd he can come to total conclusions based on 24 games of role player performance.

 

I don't think his point is that the team is this bad, but rather that the team has dug themselves into a hole that requires an exceptional performance to get out of, and that he doesn't think the team is capable of such a performance. That's a reasonable claim, I think.

 

I mean obviously all of us are going to hold out for a magic run because, as you said, it's not reasonable to expect ALL of our players to blow this hard, but his larger game theory point is an interesting one: if you think you're out of it, do you take advantage of the small market and sell early?

[Dick Allen]

I don't think his point is that the team is this bad, but rather that the team has dug themselves into a hole that requires an exceptional performance to get out of, and that he doesn't think the team is capable of such a performance. That's a reasonable claim, I think.

 

I mean obviously all of us are going to hold out for a magic run because, as you said, it's not reasonable to expect ALL of our players to blow this hard, but his larger game theory point is an interesting one: if you think you're out of it, do you take advantage of the small market and sell early?

Then why isn't he saying the AL West race is over. The 2001 White Sox, after losing Frank Thomas and David Wells, finished the season 83-79 with Jerry Manuel at the helm. On May 5th, they were 8-19 11.5 games out. Granted they didn't win, if they playoffs were set up then like they are now, they missed by 2 games, but too much is made out of this doom and gloom.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Dick Allen

[The Ginger Kid]

Looming decision? Doesn't Majestic manufacture the uniforms?

Dude....

[Eminor3rd]

Then why isn't he saying the AL West race is over. The 2001 White Sox, after losing Frank Thomas and David Wells, finished the season 83-79 with Jerry Manuel at the helm. On May 5th, they were 8-19 11.5 games out. Granted they didn't win, if they playoffs were set up then like they are now, they missed by 2 games, but too much is made out of this doom and gloom.

 

I'm guessing because the team that's ahead is universally considered to have much less talent than the teams behind. The opposite is true for us against KC/DET. Also it was a article on the White Sox, I'm sure he'll get around to the West.

 

As for the rest of the year: yeah, it's possible. They could come back. But again, it isn't likely, and I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Sox may want to be early sellers. Now, "early sellers" still isn't until mid-June, realistically, so maybe it's pointless to talk about now, sure.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[chitownsportsfan]

This cherry picking of teams that went on big runs needs to stop. It's like going back through hands of blackjack and concluding that it's always a good idea to hit on 18 because you drew a 21 a couple of times. How many times did you bust?

 

For every team that goes on a big run after starting poorly there are 10 that just continue to suck. It's the exception, not the expectation.

 

This team has been absolute horse s*** through the first month. I don't see any reason to expect a turnaround this isn't the Nationals' roster -- this is a flawed roster that needed every break to go there way. So far, outside of some nice pen performances and Avi hitting, they haven't had any breaks go there way.

 

I think this is just teh baseball gods smiting Hawk down for thinking a good bullpen equals a good team. Hahahahahaha. Not when you can't get them the lead moron.

[southsider2k5]

This cherry picking of teams that went on big runs needs to stop. It's like going back through hands of blackjack and concluding that it's always a good idea to hit on 18 because you drew a 21 a couple of times. How many times did you bust?

 

For every team that goes on a big run after starting poorly there are 10 that just continue to suck. It's the exception, not the expectation.

 

This team has been absolute horse s*** through the first month. I don't see any reason to expect a turnaround this isn't the Nationals' roster -- this is a flawed roster that needed every break to go there way. So far, outside of some nice pen performances and Avi hitting, they haven't had any breaks go there way.

 

I think this is just teh baseball gods smiting Hawk down for thinking a good bullpen equals a good team. Hahahahahaha. Not when you can't get them the lead moron.

 

How many times did a team that was 8-14 or worse fire a manager and have success that same season?

[flavum]

Just some cherry picking of the AL playoff teams last year...

 

Every 27 games...

 

Angels

14-13, 16-11, 16-11, 19-8, 17-10, 16-11 = 98-64

 

Orioles

15-12, 12-15, 15-12, 19-8, 18-9, 17-10 = 96-66

 

Tigers

18-9, 13-14, 16-11, 14-13, 13-14, 16-11 = 90-72

 

Royals

14-13, 12-15, 16-11, 14-13, 18-9, 15-12 = 89-73

 

Athletics

17-10, 15-12, 19-8, 15-12, 12-15, 10-17 = 88-74

 

What the A's did isn't going to happen a lot.

 

But the Royals started very mediocre...the second 27 at 12-15, and the first 54 at 26-28.

 

The Sox are 8-14. At the very least, they should give it this week to see where they're at after 28 games. 12-16 would be bad, but not insurmountable.

 

10-18, see ya.

 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

How many times did a team that was 8-14 or worse fire a manager and have success that same season?

 

Changing the deck chairs probably won't help but it sure as hell can't hurt. They literally can't play any worse than last in runs, last in rs, and last in defense.

[TaylorStSox]

Hahn made some big blunders building this team. It's a team whose strength is pitching, yet we have awful defense. He invested too much in a closer. Trading Semien was a mistake IMO.

[southsider2k5]

Changing the deck chairs probably won't help but it sure as hell can't hurt. They literally can't play any worse than last in runs, last in rs, and last in defense.

 

They can play this baseball for the last 140 games. That is literally worse than playing it for the first 22 games.

[LDF]

Before LDF asks, f*** I'm Good, Just Ask Me.

 

oh man, you are killing me.

 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

They can play this baseball for the last 140 games. That is literally worse than playing it for the first 22 games.

 

Well that's true but do you have any faith that RV is going to lead the Sox into the playoffs any time soon? If you fire Robin and install a guy that's won some like Gardenhire you can start figuring out who is going to captain the next playoff Sox team.

 

I have no doubt it's not RV. Not sure what the answer is, but he's not it.

[southsider2k5]

Well that's true but do you have any faith that RV is going to lead the Sox into the playoffs any time soon? If you fire Robin and install a guy that's won some like Gardenhire you can start figuring out who is going to captain the next playoff Sox team.

 

I have no doubt it's not RV. Not sure what the answer is, but he's not it.

 

The idea that the White Sox will hire outside of the organization is 100% laughable to me. Anyone who is counting on Ron Gardenhire to be brought in is fooling themselves. I'd say the odds that the replacement manager is already drawing a White Sox paycheck are somewhere around a 2nd standard deviation level of confidence for me.

[LDF]

It's way too early to make rash decisions.

 

The 2001 White Sox started 8-19 and finished 83-79. At one point in late September, they were 78-72.

 

They weren't ever really in it - but they had high expectations coming off of the 2000 division title, started out worse than anyone could have possibly imagined, and completely turned it around.

 

Had the fifth playoff spot been in play - the 2001 White Sox would have finished just 2 games out of that slot.

 

Let's not talk about the White Sox - let's talk about the field.

 

I see a West and East with every other team besides the frontrunner below .500 at this point.

I see a Detroit that's gone 6-7 in their last 13.

I see a Kansas city that's gone 5-6 in their last 11.

I see a Cleveland and a Minnesota full of holes.

 

Now, let's talk about the White Sox.

 

I see a team playing just about as bad as they possibly can, in terms of fundamentals and errors.

I see a team hitting .242 with an team ERA north of 4.5 - and still just a handful of games under .500 despite that.

 

Folks, we are hitting the bad end of the variance right now, and after this Detroit series - even if we get swept....we have the next 16 games mostly at home ALL against very beatable teams to get fat on - Cincy here, at Milwaukee, at a bad Oakland, vs. Cle and Min at home....

 

Don't close the book on this season until after the May 8-May 24 stretch. I see us going 10-6 there and clawing back into this thing.

 

no matter how anyone spins it, this season is almost a lost. the only thing is to play it out. however, the team and the org can take the rest of the yr and address the holes, continue to improve, to continue to show the fans the team and org will make it right.

[caulfield12]

I'm guessing because the team that's ahead is universally considered to have much less talent than the teams behind. The opposite is true for us against KC/DET. Also it was a article on the White Sox, I'm sure he'll get around to the West.

 

As for the rest of the year: yeah, it's possible. They could come back. But again, it isn't likely, and I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that the Sox may want to be early sellers. Now, "early sellers" still isn't until mid-June, realistically, so maybe it's pointless to talk about now, sure.

 

 

In 2001, you had Wells and Thomas go down early and were playing guys like Jose Canseco and pushing all your young pitchers into the rotation for experience, guys like Buehrle, Garland, Danny Wright, Wells...and they did get going in the middle of the summer to fight back to .500 and over (I was in St. Louis for some games that July), but there was never a feeling they were REALLY in it because of that 14-29 start.

 

The Twins were the shocking front-runner (remember, all the rumors about the team being relocated were out there then) and the Indians were the team expected by everyone to win, at least with Thomas/Wells out, and the fact that the Indians had the dominant team for most of the 90's in the AL Central and this was their very final run before dismantling all those great offensive players (their first rebuild of the decade, the second one would come 6-7 years later).

 

Obviously, there could be the same or a similar article on the Indians as well. Kluber has fallen off a cliff, and that fact alone, along with their offensive struggles and shaky bullpen put them in the same situation. It's not like someone's going to shell out anything for Michael Bourn or Nick Swisher, etc.

 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

The idea that the White Sox will hire outside of the organization is 100% laughable to me. Anyone who is counting on Ron Gardenhire to be brought in is fooling themselves. I'd say the odds that the replacement manager is already drawing a White Sox paycheck are somewhere around a 2nd standard deviation level of confidence for me.

 

Well we'll continue to suck then imo. Hiring from within has got them were they are. The Bulls made a bold move with Thibs (hard to fathom now but it was seen as so at the time) and JR needs to make another bold move IMO and hire his next guy outside the org.

 

Honestly the only "org guy" I could live with is probably Ozzie. He's far from my first choice but if they are gonna go that route they could do worse IMO.

[LDF]

The problem is that rebuilding on the fly has left us in a position that right now is as bad as we were 2 years ago when we started the most recent attempt at rebuilding on the fly.

 

it wasn't building on the fly, it is that the system was devoid of any prospect higher than maybe single A or A+.

 

the cupboard was bare. so the sox had to fill up the roster and the only fast way was to do thru Fa's rt.

[3GamesToLove]

Honestly, everyone on this board knows exactly what that post is referencing, including you yourself. I'm sure you feel very smart right now though.

 

I was just confused by the term "unbalanced" as I hadn't heard that used before to refer to the schedule changes wrought by the balancing of the leagues.

[LDF]

I've tried to stay positive as long as I could. And thank god for the Bulls and Blackhawks playing almost every night to get me through this, but I am at my tipping point. It seems like every year we get off to the worst starts. We blame it on the cold weather, the unforeseen off days (Balt, rain outs etc.), other teams are just off to quick starts, etc.

 

This just deflects the true problems of our team. Don't we have one of the highest if not the highest first pitch swinging statistics? Don't we see fewer balls than anybody else in the MLB? Why is our rookie of all players seeing the best plate appearances? There are problems with this team.. and here is my ranking:

 

1) Our #4 and 5 starter. I don't care how much money Danks makes -- he's not worth a spot in the rotation. He should be a middle reliever. If he was being paid $500,000 a year we'd all say cut him or put him Carroll's role. Sunk cost. Play to win the game.

2) Defense -- rule one of baseball -- you have to catch the ball... okay, I'm not Hawk. But it needs to be better. We're stuck with the outfield we have. Those guys aren't going to get any better. It's not going to improve at 3B or 2B either (Minus bringing up Sanchez at 2b -- which I'm a proponent of.

3) 3B and Catcher. Again - nothing is going to change. But Beckham -- who couldn't get a MLB job, is again starting in our infield a ton. I don't think Conor is THE problem, I think hes average to below average.

4) Coaching -- keep saying its the players faults. But then why even have a coach. Fundamentally we suck. I dont think I've had confidence over the past 5 years that we can lay down a bunt when necessary. 1st and 2nd nobody out? How many of you have confidence we can move those guys over? 1st and 3rd, 1 out, what are your thoughts that we can successfully move them in? get em on, get em over, get em in. Sorry I start today with the firing of Steverson as a wake up call. End of May, fire Robin. Not the end of the year so that PR wise it looks better. We play to win the game!

as much as i have said this, the owners will not bury Danks and his contract.

 

[southsider2k5]

Well we'll continue to suck then imo. Hiring from within has got them were they are. The Bulls made a bold move with Thibs (hard to fathom now but it was seen as so at the time) and JR needs to make another bold move IMO and hire his next guy outside the org.

 

Honestly the only "org guy" I could live with is probably Ozzie. He's far from my first choice but if they are gonna go that route they could do worse IMO.

 

Ventura is the very definition of "bold hire". Gardenhire is the definition of a "safe hire". Bold is new and different, not a guy who is 57 years old and has 13 years of MLB managerial experience. If you want a re-tread, just say you want a re-tread.

[LDF]

Hahn made some big blunders building this team. It's a team whose strength is pitching, yet we have awful defense. He invested too much in a closer. Trading Semien was a mistake IMO.

 

i disagree, the sox needed another pitcher. many have said that, even with the wonder kid developing. they, the sox management and fans thought he would come in and take a spot. some disagree so what did they do, went out and got penny and drabek.

 

how much was that hahn and how much was that upper management.

[chitownsportsfan]

Ventura is the very definition of "bold hire". Gardenhire is the definition of a "safe hire". Bold is new and different, not a guy who is 57 years old and has 13 years of MLB managerial experience. If you want a re-tread, just say you want a re-tread.

 

Hiring a guy that was doing college baseball commentary that had zero managing experience wasn't "bold". It was stupid and the general reaction at the time was "wtf?"

 

Maybe it was "bold". But it was boldly stupid. Like sending a dic pick to the girl you're macking on.