Greg Walker ~ What have we learned?

[Texsox]

We are starting the fourth season since Greg Walker left to take the Braves' job as hitting coach, a move almost everyone here heralded as a giant step in the right direction. As a case study in when coaches needed to be changed, how has the organization changed since Walker left? Is this the time to reflect on the responsibility he had for those teams? Perhaps how important the coaches really are?

[shysocks]

[Texsox]

I'm hoping it doesn't go that way. We have a lot of serious fans and students of the game. Many posters here now where posting here then. I can't remember any voice suggesting he should not have gone. A few, myself included, said not during the season, but overall there was very little support for keeping him on. His short stint in Atlanta I believe backs up that statement. Although the Braves have brought him back in a different capacity.

 

I've always believed that coaches and managers received too much credit and too much blame for what athletes do on the field.

[Dick Allen]

You want a good offense, you better have good hitters.

 

If you expect a hitting coach to make mediocre or bad hitters good major league hitters at this point, there isn't a person in the world who can make that happen.

 

Walker was the hitting coach when the team had a really good offense, and a really poor offense. He was never a genius when they were good but a fool when Andy Gonzalez couldn't hit.

 

As I stated many times before, it wasn't like hitters leaving the White Sox went on to bigger and better offensive things. Swisher did, but he didn't work with Walker.

 

The exact same thing is going on with Robin. The Sox are 4-12 in SB. That, is all his fault. If the were 30-30, guess who wouldn't be getting any credit? It would be a Vince Coleman lovefest. Last night, Robin sent Gillaspie on a 3-2 count with Alexei up to actually try to stay out of a DP. It is a manuever every manager uses. Of course, Alexei fans and it's a easy DP. Robin is a fool. It's a clown show on the basepaths.

 

Coaches and managers matter, but they don't make a 90 win team a 65 win team, and dont' make a 65 win team a 90 win team.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Rowand44]

I never blamed Greg Walker when he was here but sometimes a change is needed and it was absolutely time to get rid of him and to be honest, probably should have happened a little before it did.

[Texsox]

Dick I agree with everything you wrote, then I look at the conclusion we could make, that coaching and managing doesn't matter at all. Which doesn't have much face validity. IIRC the discussion about Walker also centered around the system's approach to hitting. How the farm system was not growing many hitters. Maybe that is an area we should look at

[Rowand44]

How the farm system was not growing many hitters. Maybe that is an area we should look at

Something everyone here has agreed on for a decade now.

[bmags]

I don't understand the point of a position if there is no accountability for it.

 

Are you likely to find an amazing hitting coach that always gets the best out of your offense for years? Maybe not.

 

In a slumping offense is it possible a new voice can make a change? I think so.

 

But, yes, I appreciate those peddling an orthodoxy that if someone does not control everything they control nothing and thus can never be held accountable for performance of their team. Because that's the way everything else beside baseball is run.

[Dick Allen]

Dick I agree with everything you wrote, then I look at the conclusion we could make, that coaching and managing doesn't matter at all. Which doesn't have much face validity. IIRC the discussion about Walker also centered around the system's approach to hitting. How the farm system was not growing many hitters. Maybe that is an area we should look at

You still need talent, and I don't know how you can pin minor league offensive failure on the major leauge hitting coach who cannot work with them.

 

Perhaps a organizational hitting approach is needed. I don't know, everyone is different. If everyone just watched the Tom Emanski videos and did everything exactly the same, they, as a whole would probably be easy to pitch to, as their weaknesses would probably all be the same.

 

But if you want an overall organizational philosophy, that would be up to people higher than the hitting coach. I know they mentioned something like this when the hired Steverson, but it still requires talent and execution, and of course, more importantly, better hitters.

 

Steve Stone said on the air a couple weeks ago how he would love to be Mike Trout's hitting coach. All you have to do is shut up.

[LDF]

I don't understand the point of a position if there is no accountability for it.

 

Are you likely to find an amazing hitting coach that always gets the best out of your offense for years? Maybe not.

 

In a slumping offense is it possible a new voice can make a change? I think so.

 

But, yes, I appreciate those peddling an orthodoxy that if someone does not control everything they control nothing and thus can never be held accountable for performance of their team. Because that's the way everything else beside baseball is run.

 

nice word. but in this situation, 1 person controls it, that is the owner. they put someone in charge to dictate the philosophy of the org. that would be the GM.

 

then at that point, it is up to the GM to produce the results.

[LDF]

You still need talent, and I don't know how you can pin minor league offensive failure on the major leauge hitting coach who cannot work with them.

 

Perhaps a organizational hitting approach is needed. I don't know, everyone is different. If everyone just watched the Tom Emanski videos and did everything exactly the same, they, as a whole would probably be easy to pitch to, as their weaknesses would probably all be the same.

 

But if you want an overall organizational philosophy, that would be up to people higher than the hitting coach. I know they mentioned something like this when the hired Steverson, but it still requires talent and execution, and of course, more importantly, better hitters.

 

Steve Stone said on the air a couple weeks ago how he would love to be Mike Trout's hitting coach. All you have to do is shut up.

 

great point and i agree with you. it starts with the GM and then the drafting and acquiring the talent.

 

plain and simple.

[Dick Allen]

I don't understand the point of a position if there is no accountability for it.

 

Are you likely to find an amazing hitting coach that always gets the best out of your offense for years? Maybe not.

 

In a slumping offense is it possible a new voice can make a change? I think so.

 

But, yes, I appreciate those peddling an orthodoxy that if someone does not control everything they control nothing and thus can never be held accountable for performance of their team. Because that's the way everything else beside baseball is run.

Accountablility would be holding the people resposible accountable. Accountability should be a 2 way street. If you are going to blame someone if something doesn't go right, then you should give them credit when it does.

 

The White Sox have fired plenty of people. The easiest, cheapest thing to do is fire someone if it truly made your 9-14 team 14-9. But, if the people on the inside, who really know what is going on, deem that not to be the case, firing them isn't showing accountability, it is naming a scapegoat. There is no way the White Sox current problems are on one guy. There is no way when Andy Gonzalez and Darin Erstad and Corky Miller are in a major league line up, that the Sox not scoring many runs is because the hitting coach is bad at his job. I wish I still had an article a friend of mine sent me a couple years ago. It was a guy who was some sort of club soccer coach. Parents would spend tons of money getting their kids the "top of the line" coach, expecting college scholarships and perhaps professional paydays. His message was, no matter how much money you spend, no matter what reputation a coach has, the overwhelming chances are your kid is average, and will never be anything more than average. Save your money. The fact is, Vince Coleman isn't going to make Adam Eaton a guy that steals 70 bases. No hitting coach is going to make Tyler Flowers a second coming of Mike Piazza. Don Cooper can't make John Danks throw 95. No one said there is no accountability, but really, from the outside, not having access to their daily interactions, any fire someone for accountability issue makes little sense.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

The question is how many years without a playoff appearance when we are supposed to be the largest market team in the division with all the built-in advantages is acceptable?

 

10? 15?

 

Should we just tip our caps to Illitch for spending more and having a better GM, to the Twins and to the Royals now for building much more solid foundations for sustainable success?

 

What does Buddy Bell have to do to get fired, for example?

 

What is he actually superior or even good at?

 

The irony is with all the advanced statistics in the world, the subjective matter of judging coaches and front office personnel seems to be getting more and more difficult.

 

We can quantify and assess players in a multitude of ways, why not coaches, too?

Edited May 6, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

The question is how many years without a playoff appearance when we are supposed to be the largest market team in the division with all the built-in advantages is acceptable?

 

10? 15?

 

Should we just tip our caps to Illitch for spending more and having a better GM, to the Twins and to the Royals now for building much more solid foundations for sustainable success?

 

What does Buddy Bell have to do to get fired, for example?

 

What is he actually superior or even good at?

 

The irony is with all the advanced statistics in the world, the subjective matter of judging coaches and front office personnel seems to be getting more and more difficult.

 

We can quantify and assess players in a multitude of ways, why not coaches, too?

So that is what we learned from Greg Walker.

[caulfield12]

So that is what we learned from Greg Walker.

 

 

Obviously the point of this is to say the team isnt talented enough....therefore the coaching staff shouldnt be blamed for Corky Miller, Andy Gonzalez and Leury Garcia. Lol. Not extreme examples there.

 

The problem is "good" or decent hitters struggling like Eaton, Ramirez, LaRoche, Cabrera (no power, low walks)....or supposedly "talented" hitters like Beckham and Viciedo.

 

It seems you are arguing its more on the scouting and GM, correct?

 

In other words, if you were forced to fire Hahn, Steverson or Ventura today...who would you choose to protect and why?

 

I know you will say nobody should be responsible or accountable....that the team will improve magically over time if we are only patient and content to be non-contenders for yet one more season. Good poll topic, but its undoubtedly already being discussed to death.

Edited May 6, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Obviously the point of this is to say the team isnt talented enough....therefore the coaching staff shouldnt be blamed for Corky Miller, Andy Gonzalez and Leury Garcia. Lol. Not extreme examples there.

 

The problem is "good" or decent hitters struggling like Eaton, Ramirez, LaRoche, Cabrera (no power, low walks)....or supposedly "talented" hitters like Beckham and Viciedo.

 

It seems you are arguing its more on the scouting and GM, correct?

 

In other words, if you were forced to fire Hahn, Steverson or Ventura today...who would you choose to protect and why?

 

I know you will say nobody should be responsible....that the team will improve magically over time if we are only patient and content to be non-contenders for yet one more season.

Players are responsible. If you fire people to show "accountabilty" and not really address the problem, guess what? Problem not solved. You wind up going 30 years with 1 wild card appearance, you know, like your Royals. But keep on believing Geo Soto won't throw the ball into CF on a steal attempt if anyone but Robin is sitting in the dugout. The great Joe Maddon's team blew a 5,4 and 3 run lead the last 2 games alone. That has to be on him, correct? I mean he put Edwin Jackson into a tie game. He needs to be fired. Theo needs to show some accountability.

[Rowand44]

Pretty shocked that DA would have the most posts in this thread.

[caulfield12]

Then why dont teams "fire" all their players instead of changing coaches or managers?

 

Why did the 2012 team play so differently but for just one year?

 

What does Soto have to do with Ventura rather than Hahn? Nobody thought he could be a capable defender.

 

 

What were the expected or projected records for the Cubs and White Sox? The Cubs are losing to the team many consider one of the top three in baseball despite the loss of Wainright...whereas Minnesota was in the basement for every singgle prognosticator. The Cubs are still over .500, in second place and playing an exciting/interesting brand of baseball. The White Sox, even when they do win, it's often quite ugly with just a few exceptions.

 

Btw, Edwin Jackson's ERA was 0.00 coming into yesterday's game. Nails!

Edited May 6, 2015 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

The question is how many years without a playoff appearance when we are supposed to be the largest market team in the division with all the built-in advantages is acceptable?

 

10? 15?

 

Should we just tip our caps to Illitch for spending more and having a better GM, to the Twins and to the Royals now for building much more solid foundations for sustainable success?

 

What does Buddy Bell have to do to get fired, for example?

 

What is he actually superior or even good at?

 

The irony is with all the advanced statistics in the world, the subjective matter of judging coaches and front office personnel seems to be getting more and more difficult.

 

We can quantify and assess players in a multitude of ways, why not coaches, too?

 

This really isn't true. One you divide up the Chicago market with Cubs fans, a place like Detroit's market all by itself is probably bigger than what the Sox have to pull from. Sure we play in Chicago, but we are the clear minority player in Chicago.

[southsider2k5]

Then why dont teams "fire" all their players instead of changing coaches or managers?

 

Why did the 2012 team play so differently but for just one year?

 

What does Soto have to do with Ventura rather than Hahn? Nobody thought he could be a capable defender.

 

 

What were the expected or projected records for the Cubs and White Sox? The Cubs are losing to the team many consider one of the top three in baseball despite the loss of Wainright...whereas Minnesota was in the basement for every singgle prognosticator. The Cubs are still over .500, in second place and playing an exciting/interesting brand of baseball. The White Sox, even when they do win, it's often quite ugly with just a few exceptions.

 

If you think about it, how many players did we "fire" this fall with all of the new signings we made? A large chunk of the roster was "fired", by being replaced. In a round about way, the White Sox "fired" about half their roster in 2014.

[caulfield12]

If you think about it, how many players did we "fire" this fall with all of the new signings we made? A large chunk of the roster was "fired", by being replaced. In a round about way, the White Sox "fired" about half their roster in 2014.

 

I meant in the middle or beginning of a season....

[caulfield12]

This really isn't true. One you divide up the Chicago market with Cubs fans, a place like Detroit's market all by itself is probably bigger than what the Sox have to pull from. Sure we play in Chicago, but we are the clear minority player in Chicago.

 

 

We dwarf the Twins, Indians and Royals as far as media rights fees.

 

Pretty comparable to DET. Which was a city absolutely devastated in 2008, moreso than any Midwestern and/or Rust Belt city fwiw.

[southsider2k5]

I meant in the middle or beginning of a season....

 

Because during the season it is physically impossible. What are you going to do, bring up your entire AAA team?

[shysocks]

We can quantify and assess players in a multitude of ways, why not coaches, too?

There are a lot of ways they're trying, but my belief is they'll never be as thorough/accurate/annoying (depending on your point of view, as we saw in the game thread last night) as what we have for players. I don't see how you can quantify how much of Matt Thonrton's success Don Cooper deserves credit for or Josh Fields' failure falls on Greg Walker. I just don't see how you can do it.

 

And that's why all the "fire this guy" arguments are impossible to resolve. We will never have concrete proof of anything, so they're all just based on emotion and whether it's "time for a change" or not. Coaches absolutely deserve to be fired sometimes but God knows when that is.

[caulfield12]

Because during the season it is physically impossible. What are you going to do, bring up your entire AAA team?

 

That's at the heart of the Carlos Sanchez/Micah debate right now.

 

The concept of "firing" Micah for his performance so far when the same thing can never happen to John Danks, for example.

Edited May 6, 2015 by caulfield12