Ventura told stuff by front office

[Y2Jimmy0]

Because if this team falls flat like it's in the process of doing and the tiny "they spent money on the team" attendance bump evaporates, the financials for next season look terrible without adding a single soul. If they're below .500 in June and especially July, with 2-3 teams ahead of them, I think it would be extremely surprising if they didn't try to move some of that salary they just took on.

 

If they pick up Alexei's option and offer arbitration to most of the guys who are arb-eligible, there's already a payroll increase to $125-130 million on the books for next year, up from $117m this year, and that's with allowing Samardzija to walk. Just to avoid losing money, which this franchise does not like to do, they will either have to turn this season around or they will have to get rid of some fraction of that money.

 

 

I think that Danks, Ramirez, and Shark could possibly go if it gets out of hand. Robertson, Melky, and LaRoche aren't going anywhere though and I'd probably rather have the 1st round pick for Shark than the package. I just think it's way too early to consider even talking about pulling the plug.

[Balta1701]

I think that Danks, Ramirez, and Shark could possibly go if it gets out of hand. Robertson, Melky, and LaRoche aren't going anywhere though and I'd probably rather have the 1st round pick for Shark than the package. I just think it's way too early to consider even talking about pulling the plug.

If anyone would take Danks they'd have moved him by now.

 

Shark...letting him go doesn't fix the payroll mess they created since he's not under contract, and with the way he's pitching right now just settling for the crappy draft pick is starting to seem like better than what we'll be able to get in trade.

 

Ramirez...yes we could possibly move him so I'm hoping he picks it up with the bats more in the next month, and that does help the payroll problem a lot...but then we have the delightful middle infield of Tim Anderson as a rookie who could be in AAA and Micah Johnson as a rushed sophomore next year, which is pretty **** far from a competitive infield.

[Dick Allen]

If anyone would take Danks they'd have moved him by now.

 

Shark...letting him go doesn't fix the payroll mess they created since he's not under contract, and with the way he's pitching right now just settling for the crappy draft pick is starting to seem like better than what we'll be able to get in trade.

 

Ramirez...yes we could possibly move him so I'm hoping he picks it up with the bats more in the next month, and that does help the payroll problem a lot...but then we have the delightful middle infield of Tim Anderson as a rookie who could be in AAA and Micah Johnson as a rushed sophomore next year, which is pretty **** far from a competitive infield.

Yet you seem to love Marcus Semien who committed error number 11 last night.

[Balta1701]

Yet you seem to love Marcus Semien who committed error number 11 last night.

That's a great comparison for what Timmy will probably be like if he's at SS in the big leagues in 2016.

 

The difference? The A's sold off expensive pieces and clearly committed to a rebuilding season and are hoping that Semien can develop into a more solid defender at SS with time. Are you prepared to commit to 2016 as a rebuilding season?

[Dick Allen]

That's a great comparison for what Timmy will probably be like if he's at SS in the big leagues in 2016.

 

The difference? The A's sold off expensive pieces and clearly committed to a rebuilding season and are hoping that Semien can develop into a more solid defender at SS with time. Are you prepared to commit to 2016 as a rebuilding season?

They didn't clearly commit to rebuilding.

[Balta1701]

They didn't clearly commit to rebuilding.

WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Y2Jimmy0]

That's a great comparison for what Timmy will probably be like if he's at SS in the big leagues in 2016.

 

The difference? The A's sold off expensive pieces and clearly committed to a rebuilding season and are hoping that Semien can develop into a more solid defender at SS with time. Are you prepared to commit to 2016 as a rebuilding season?

 

 

They aren't going to rebuild with Sale, Q, and Rodon at the front of the rotation, Duke and Robertson at back end of the bullpen, and Abreu in his prime. Not wasting Sale and Abreu's prime is one of a myriad of reasons why they spent heavily this offseason. I just think it's a nonissue. They aren't going to tear it down properly, they never have. I also think they'll be around .500 though and it'll be a moot point.

[Dick Allen]

WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Keeping Scott Kazmir and Coco Crisp, trading for Tyler Clippard. Signing Billy Butler, aren't moves teams "totally committed" to rebuilding make.

 

So laugh all you want. You are incorrect yet again.

[Balta1701]

Keeping Scott Kazmir and Coco Crisp, trading for Tyler Clippard. Signing Billy Butler, aren't moves teams "totally committed" to rebuilding make.

 

So laugh all you want. You are incorrect yet again.

No, but letting Lester walk, trading Samardzija for zero established players, and trading away one of the best 3b in the game are very much rebuilding moves.

 

If we traded away Quintana, let Sale walk, and traded away Abreu...I don't think we'd care if we brought in LaRoche to replace him, we'd still call that rebuilding.

[Balta1701]

They aren't going to rebuild with Sale, Q, and Rodon at the front of the rotation, Duke and Robertson at back end of the bullpen, and Abreu in his prime. Not wasting Sale and Abreu's prime is one of a myriad of reasons why they spent heavily this offseason. I just think it's a nonissue. They aren't going to tear it down properly, they never have. I also think they'll be around .500 though and it'll be a moot point.

And so we'll slog from one just-under .500 season into another, amazed at how attendance keeps going down from year to year.

[Dick Allen]

No, but letting Lester walk, trading Samardzija for zero established players, and trading away one of the best 3b in the game are very much rebuilding moves.

 

If we traded away Quintana, let Sale walk, and traded away Abreu...I don't think we'd care if we brought in LaRoche to replace him, we'd still call that rebuilding.

You stated they clearly committed to a rebuilding season. That is simply not the case. They thought they could win. He was trying to shuffle the deck. It wasn't a clear commitment. If it was, those names I mentioned wouldn't be around.

[Y2Jimmy0]

And so we'll slog from one just-under .500 season into another, amazed at how attendance keeps going down from year to year.

 

 

Yes. They don't have a choice. What are they supposed to do? They can't do what the Cubs did. This is in the other thread but "our" fan base wouldn't be on board with a rebuild. They aren't on board unless the team wins consistently. They have to ride it out. They have to hope that their offseason moves work out and supplement those moves with guys from the farm system and other deals. I don't see them dialing it back. They would have done that instead of what they did this offseason.

[Balta1701]

Yes. They don't have a choice. What are they supposed to do? They can't do what the Cubs did. This is in the other thread but "our" fan base wouldn't be on board with a rebuild. They aren't on board unless the team wins consistently. They have to ride it out. They have to hope that their offseason moves work out and supplement those moves with guys from the farm system and other deals. I don't see them dialing it back. They would have done that instead of what they did this offseason.

We're looking at 3 straight losing seasons and 4/5.

 

We have done nothing better this decade than doing exactly what people say we can't do. You can't make me fear "OMG what will the fan base do if we tear things down and lose every year" when...we're losing every **** year!

[chitownsportsfan]

We're looking at 3 straight losing seasons and 4/5.

 

We have done nothing better this decade than doing exactly what people say we can't do. You can't make me fear "OMG what will the fan base do if we tear things down and lose every year" when...we're losing every **** year!

 

good post

[LDF]

We're looking at 3 straight losing seasons and 4/5.

 

We have done nothing better this decade than doing exactly what people say we can't do. You can't make me fear "OMG what will the fan base do if we tear things down and lose every year" when...we're losing every **** year!

 

i really hate to say this, but you do have a good point. but the sox have a great core to build around, with a superstar with a limited expiration date.

[Dick Allen]

Winning baseball games and making money are not interrelated like you have been positing for so long.

 

 

Are you saying players aren't more attractive when their contractual liability is lessened?

 

 

DA already addressed this but there is no way the A's committed to rebuilding. They had moveable pieces they kept. They spent 30 million on a DH. They traded for a back end up bullpen piece. They traded for Zobrist.

I forgot about Zobrist. A team doesn't trade for a free agent to be to flip him at the deadline when they are totally committed to rebuilding.

[iamshack]

Winning baseball games and making money are not interrelated like you have been positing for so long.

 

 

Are you saying players aren't more attractive when their contractual liability is lessened?

 

 

DA already addressed this but there is no way the A's committed to rebuilding. They had moveable pieces they kept. They spent 30 million on a DH. They traded for a back end up bullpen piece. They traded for Zobrist.

What the A's did, while perhaps suggestive of rebuilding for others, is their standard operating procedure at this point.

[Butter Parque]

My new position is it doesn't matter. Somehow Minnesota is five over .500 with all no names plus Mauer. We can hit lightning in a bottle just as easily with young guys who click. Now that I'm not emotionally attached to any players, I say (if Sox continue to suck) go ahead and trade them all and try to get some superstar younguns. They can't play any worse than our teams of the Robin era and the late Ozzie era. I say give a new manager some youth and speed and defense.

 

You would then have to have confidence that this organization has any capabilities of 1. developing its own position players (no evidence) and 2. locating, acquiring, and further developing other teams' young position players (limited evidence of varying results- Gillaspie, Eaton, Avi)

 

Its just not as simple as you write. Not for this team, at least.

 

I wanna get excited about guys like Engel, Tim Anderson, Sanchez, Hawkins, May, etc. but lets face it, as fans, with this team's recent (and not-so-recent) history of developing position players, I have absolutely no reason to. I don't trust guys like KW, Buddy Bell, Capra, Laumann

Edited May 13, 2015 by Butter Parque

[Balta1701]

So to follow that up, if you guys saw Samardzija walking, Alexei being traded, and Anderson taking over as the starting SS next year you'd call that version of the White Sox ready to compete?

[LVSoxFan]

We're looking at 3 straight losing seasons and 4/5.

 

We have done nothing better this decade than doing exactly what people say we can't do. You can't make me fear "OMG what will the fan base do if we tear things down and lose every year" when...we're losing every **** year!

 

LOL no kidding. Exactly.

[Dick Allen]

So to follow that up, if you guys saw Samardzija walking, Alexei being traded, and Anderson taking over as the starting SS next year you'd call that version of the White Sox ready to compete?

It would depend on the rest of the roster.

[iamshack]

So to follow that up, if you guys saw Samardzija walking, Alexei being traded, and Anderson taking over as the starting SS next year you'd call that version of the White Sox ready to compete?

No, I'd think that Hahn was learning some things from Oakland in regards to how to stay ahead of budget crunches by continuing to shift assets around before they become prohibitively expensive.

[Balta1701]

Nice straw man. Why is this even relevant to ponder? Do you really think the whole offseason will be comprised of these moves/nonmoves or do we have to make a prediction based on an incomplete picture?

 

You get called out for your argument and then just change the point of emphasis. Maybe I missed it but who said anything about Anderson being the 2016 SS?

The suggestions made for how to save money were: trade Danks (which still doesn't save money if we have to take back an equal bad contract or send money with), let Samardzija walk, which already is likely to happen anyway since I don't see a $140 million payroll next year, or trade Alexei, which leaves Anderson as the likely candidate and actually does make sense.

 

The problem is...it makes little sense to me to have a team with a $115 million payroll and Tim Anderson starting at SS in 2016. He's going to struggle, especially if moved that fast.

 

This is the quandry we've put ourselves in by the bad start this year. The contracts already on the books get more expensive next year. If we're close to the payroll limit this year, and we don't see the kind of revenue growth that we hoped a competitive team would bring...then we're already close to or even over the payroll limit for next year due to the contracts we already have.

 

There's a reason Rick Hahn is bothered enough to start "telling stuff to Robin Ventura", because he's actually overexposed financially for next year and he knows it. They may not want to trade other guys, they may not want to rebuild, but if they remain a sub .500 team, they may not have a choice.

 

So no, that may not be the roster next year, but if "building next years roster" requires "trading Robertson for cheaper guys and going with a weaker bullpen because we don't have funds to spend in FA" or insert whatever other player you want as the hole we need to create...that's a recipe for another losing season. And if that's the case, why are we still holding onto a $115 million payroll?

[LDF]

The suggestions made for how to save money were: trade Danks (which still doesn't save money if we have to take back an equal bad contract or send money with), let Samardzija walk, which already is likely to happen anyway since I don't see a $140 million payroll next year, or trade Alexei, which leaves Anderson as the likely candidate and actually does make sense.

 

The problem is...it makes little sense to me to have a team with a $115 million payroll and Tim Anderson starting at SS in 2016. He's going to struggle, especially if moved that fast.

 

This is the quandry we've put ourselves in by the bad start this year. The contracts already on the books get more expensive next year. If we're close to the payroll limit this year, and we don't see the kind of revenue growth that we hoped a competitive team would bring...then we're already close to or even over the payroll limit for next year due to the contracts we already have.

 

There's a reason Rick Hahn is bothered enough to start "telling stuff to Robin Ventura", because he's actually overexposed financially for next year and he knows it. They may not want to trade other guys, they may not want to rebuild, but if they remain a sub .500 team, they may not have a choice.

 

So no, that may not be the roster next year, but if "building next years roster" requires "trading Robertson for cheaper guys and going with a weaker bullpen because we don't have funds to spend in FA" or insert whatever other player you want as the hole we need to create...that's a recipe for another losing season. And if that's the case, why are we still holding onto a $115 million payroll?

 

nice..... really nice way of putting it together. nice logic as well.

[Balta1701]

Rick Hahn is nowhere near as fickle as you are Balta.

And yet ... "Ventura told stuff by front office" is the thread we're in, so someone in the front office is fickle enough to speak to the manager 1.25 months into the season.