PK number retirement game 5/23 almost sold out

[chitownsportsfan]

Comparing our attendance to that of Detroit does nothing to add to what we are talking about here about our attendance problems. And apparently you are not reading anything that doesn't fit your own pre-set agenda, either, which is to blame attendance on fans making excuses, because you were asked to back that claim up with evidence and you didn't. Whatever.

 

In the meantime, we agree to disagree. The club has a very bad attendance problem. I optimistically suggest that would be fixed over time with more sustained winning. That's what I believe to be true. You don't agree, which is fine, and I don't care if you do or not. You're entitled to your opinion. But if what you say is, in fact, true, that sustained winning won't solve the problem, and you are convinced the "small bandwagon" fan base just won't show up for one excuse or another, then Mr. Reinsdorf ought to think about selling the current ballpark that seats 40,000 and building one that only seats 20,000, because to your way of thinking, that's all he'll ever need.

 

If the fanbase is small, how about trying to grow it bigger?

 

Winning helps, but there is much more marketing that can be done.The Sox marketing is awful, I'll say it again. When is the last time the Sox made national headlines for any sort of marketing ploy, failed or otherwise? We don't need a "disco demolition night" but how about a social media account that actually stirs the drink a little? How about they market more to the hispanic audience in Chicago? They have quite a few Spanish speaking players. In fact, they should have an entire division of the marketing department dedicated to spanish language promos.

 

 

The Sox are a stale brand with stale ownership imo. JR has been slowly losing influence in MLB and his club hasn't been consistently entertaining for almost 30 years. I am lucky to have grown up in the "good guys wear black" years with Robin, Frank, Blackjack, Alvarez and the rest of the crew. Those teams didn't win a ton, but they were competitive and exciting and young.

 

Kids younger than 15 don't know s*** about the Sox except that they are usually filled with declining vets and don't win much more than 85 games.

 

Team needs a reboot from the top down.

Edited May 22, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[Dick Allen]

If the fanbase is small, how about trying to grow it bigger?

 

Winning helps, but there is much more marketing that can be done.The Sox marketing is awful, I'll say it again. When is the last time the Sox made national headlines for any sort of marketing ploy, failed or otherwise? We don't need a "disco demolition night" but how about a social media account that actually stirs the drink a little? How about they market more to the hispanic audience in Chicago? They have quite a few Spanish speaking players. In fact, they should have an entire division of the marketing department dedicated to spanish language promos.

 

 

The Sox are a stale brand with stale ownership imo. JR has been slowly losing influence in MLB and his club hasn't been consistently entertaining for almost 30 years. I am lucky to have grown up in the "good guys wear black" years with Robin, Frank, Blackjack, Alvarez and the rest of the crew. Those teams didn't win a ton, but they were competitive and exciting and young.

 

Kids younger than 15 don't know s*** about the Sox except that they are usually filled with declining vets and don't win much more than 85 games.

 

Team needs a reboot from the top down.

No team tries harder to sell tickets than the White Sox.

[southsider2k5]

Comparing our attendance to that of Detroit does nothing to add to what we are talking about here about our attendance problems. And apparently you are not reading anything that doesn't fit your own pre-set agenda, either, which is to blame attendance on fans making excuses, because you were asked to back that claim up with evidence and you didn't. Whatever.

 

In the meantime, we agree to disagree. The club has a very bad attendance problem. I optimistically suggest that would be fixed over time with more sustained winning. That's what I believe to be true. You don't agree, which is fine, and I don't care if you do or not. You're entitled to your opinion. But if what you say is, in fact, true, that sustained winning won't solve the problem, and you are convinced the "small bandwagon" fan base just won't show up for one excuse or another, then Mr. Reinsdorf ought to think about selling the current ballpark that seats 40,000 and building one that only seats 20,000, because to your way of thinking, that's all he'll ever need.

 

In one post you are asking about our fan base being any worse or different then anyone else's but then you won't accept a comparison of another fan base. That makes total sense.

 

Your definition of what it takes to get fans to show up is the very definition of a bandwagon fan base. Not only does this team have to win, but it has to win at a rate that is unprecedented in not only its history, but in the history of all Chicago baseball. A rate of winning that has happened three times combined in the entire histories for all of the teams in the AL Central. In my lifetime Sox fans have shown up for one thing. A World Series Champion. That is it. If that isn't the definition of a bandwagon fanbase, I don't know what is.

 

[gatnom]

The reason attendance is an issue, is it creates many of the issues that people are complaining about, and they don't see the connection between the two things. The White Sox are limited in the types of approaches they can make to building a team because of their fan base. If you are OK with the fan base, you have to be OK with the limitations it puts on the franchise. It is reality. The problem is when the other side of the coin gets mentioned, it inevitably moves on to the smartass responses about ownership, without any acknowledgement of what role attendance actually plays to the success of the franchise.

 

The White Sox have the 15th highest payroll this year and are within 6% of the 10th highest. 8 of the 14 teams with higher payrolls have better winning %'s than them. 8 of the 15 teams with lower payrolls have better winning %'s than them.

 

The White Sox do not need to spend more money.

Edited May 22, 2015 by gatnom

[chitownsportsfan]

No team tries harder to sell tickets than the White Sox.

 

You're right, for example, not many teams have moles like you that are on the payroll and blow the sunshine on the fan message boards.

 

I'm only half kidding. Is there anything about how the Sox go about their business you'd change?

 

 

 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

[a meeting is assembled between JR and his fan marketing team of Dick Allen, and SouthSider2k]

 

JR: "boys, what can we do to improve attendance?"

 

Dick: "we already do more to sell tickets than anyone else"

 

JR: "sorry Dick, wrong answer, you're fired"."

 

JR: "how about you SouthSider2k, what say you?"

 

SouthSider2K: "we need to bump payroll into the top 1/4 then maybe we can spend enough to win another world series, then those fickle fans will come out"

 

JR: "wrong answer, you're also fired".

 

Brooks Boyer enters the room carried on his litter after 25 years of loyal service to JR, the number proudly hangs from the side in big bold letters

 

Brooks: "you fired those guys right?"

 

JR: "yea, I did, you got any better ideas"

 

Brooks: "nah, I already came up with the Shark Tank, that's enough right?"

 

JR: "yep, you're right, thanks for your loyal 25 years with the Bulls and Sox and GO Irish!."

 

Brooks Boyer just nods and his litter carries him out, business as usual continues at White Sox HQ

Edited May 22, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[Dick Allen]

You're right, for example, not many teams have moles like you that are on the payroll and blow the sunshine on the fan message boards.

 

I'm only half kidding. Is there anything about how the Sox go about their business you'd change?

There's a lot of things I would change. There are players I would rather not be on the roster, but I'm a White Sox fan and want them to do well, so they are on the team, I'm not going to go on a message board and moan about every little thing. As I stated, game threads here are comical. The White Sox can never trail or the world is coming to an end. They can never make an error. The pitcher can never give up a run. There was a 1-1 game after 4 where there was b****ing about the Sox offense AND b****ing about the pitching. Just the Sox usual line up: Eaton, there's a thread he's so bad he shouldn't lead off, Melky, there are posts he's a waste of money, Abreu, I've read a couple of posts he's basically just a tick above average, LaRoche, they need to get rid of him, he a huge problem, Avi, all he can do is crash, and crash hard. Gillaspie, he supposedly is not a major league starter, Flowers, he is brutal, and Micah/Sanchez although not a ton of complaining about Sanchez, Micah got some. So with a line up that bad, when they lose, you then have to blame the manager, oh and while your at it, fire Brooks because the crowds suck, although you say it's because the team doesn't win enough and he makes zero decisions about that. And I'm the irrational one. As I stated, I will have tickets to 40 games, with 3 parties and a bunch of other bonuses for less than it would cost me to see the Schaumburg Boomers. They have put in great effort. It's too bad people don't notice.

[LittleHurt05]

Is there a fan base out there that hates itself more than ours?

 

It's very intriguing, especially the inferiority complex.

 

My favorite is the "Cubs fans only care about the beer, Sox fans care about the baseball". If anyone has been to both stadiums in recent years, I would say the opposite is more likely to be true. The indifference fans had at games during the 2012 pennant race was really eye opening.

[3GamesToLove]

It's very intriguing, especially the inferiority complex.

 

My favorite is the "Cubs fans only care about the beer, Sox fans care about the baseball". If anyone has been to both stadiums in recent years, I would say the opposite is more likely to be true. The indifference fans had at games during the 2012 pennant race was really eye opening.

 

Right. It's like people think the Cell is full of diehard seamheads who hang on each and every pitch. I'd venture to say at every ballpark in the country, casual fans there for the "experience" outnumber "real" baseball fans at least five to one.

[Balta1701]

There's a lot of things I would change. There are players I would rather not be on the roster, but I'm a White Sox fan and want them to do well, so they are on the team, I'm not going to go on a message board and moan about every little thing. As I stated, game threads here are comical. The White Sox can never trail or the world is coming to an end. They can never make an error. The pitcher can never give up a run. There was a 1-1 game after 4 where there was b****ing about the Sox offense AND b****ing about the pitching. Just the Sox usual line up: Eaton, there's a thread he's so bad he shouldn't lead off, Melky, there are posts he's a waste of money, Abreu, I've read a couple of posts he's basically just a tick above average, LaRoche, they need to get rid of him, he a huge problem, Avi, all he can do is crash, and crash hard. Gillaspie, he supposedly is not a major league starter, Flowers, he is brutal, and Micah/Sanchez although not a ton of complaining about Sanchez, Micah got some. So with a line up that bad, when they lose, you then have to blame the manager, oh and while your at it, fire Brooks because the crowds suck, although you say it's because the team doesn't win enough and he makes zero decisions about that. And I'm the irrational one. As I stated, I will have tickets to 40 games, with 3 parties and a bunch of other bonuses for less than it would cost me to see the Schaumburg Boomers. They have put in great effort. It's too bad people don't notice.

For comparison I had to go over to a Red Sox message board just to see what they were up to. At this one, the top 2 threads are "Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y?

Is the actual lineup the worst in the last 10Y?"

 

I also went through to some of these and yup, sounds familiar. The page I hit randomly had them ripping on Middlebrooks early in a game for striking out. There's also plenty of "tear it down" talk, etc.

[Dick Allen]

For comparison I had to go over to a Red Sox message board just to see what they were up to. At this one, the top 2 threads are "Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y?

Is the actual lineup the worst in the last 10Y?"

 

I also went through to some of these and yup, sounds familiar. The page I hit randomly had them ripping on Middlebrooks early in a game for striking out. There's also plenty of "tear it down" talk, etc.

So your point is it is OK to whine and moan about anything and everything because Boston fans do. Good for you, but it would be nice if there was some common sense used at least once in a while.

[Balta1701]

So your point is it is OK to whine and moan about anything and everything because Boston fans do. Good for you, but it would be nice if there was some common sense used at least once in a while.

No, my point is that a fanbase which fills a park constantly every single game can still be pretty down on its team. Especially when they're rotten, and it's been a while since Boston has endured multiple losing years in a row like we have.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the problem isn't people like us overreacting to this team being rotten. Maybe the problem is them being rotten.

[LittleHurt05]

No, my point is that a fanbase which fills a park constantly every single game can still be pretty down on its team. Especially when they're rotten, and it's been a while since Boston has endured multiple losing years in a row like we have.

 

You should see Chicago Blackhawks' message boards. If fans had their way at this point, I think the only people that would be left in the organization would be Toews & Rocky Wirtz.

[southsider2k5]

It's very intriguing, especially the inferiority complex.

 

My favorite is the "Cubs fans only care about the beer, Sox fans care about the baseball". If anyone has been to both stadiums in recent years, I would say the opposite is more likely to be true. The indifference fans had at games during the 2012 pennant race was really eye opening.

 

I will admit, my opinion on this has completely changed over the last 10-15 years. I bought into the idea that if the Sox could only win the World Series, it would change everything in Chicago. I wasn't much of a fan of ownership, especially in the wake of the meltdown that the Bulls saw over Jordan vs Krause vs Jackson..

 

Then 2005 happened. The bandwagon filled up, just like I expected it to. Then Sox fans reactions to 2006 to 2008 flew in the face of everything that they used to say about them needing a winner, and so on. 2012 we were in first place for all but the last week of the season. Still no one showed up. Then the the narrative changed from just having a good team, or a playoff team, to a team that has to win all of the time for people to show up. Over that decade the other narratives changed as well. At one point it was the neighborhood, or nightlife, or parking, the angles of the upper deck, or even the colors of the seats. In general Sox fans don't show up unless something extra-special is going on, and they get incredibly defensive if you don't accept all of the excuses that they offer. I don't get why it is some sort of insult to draw this conclusion from the obvious history sitting right in front of us. Sox fans are a bandwagon bunch as a whole.

[Balta1701]

I will admit, my opinion on this has completely changed over the last 10-15 years. I bought into the idea that if the Sox could only win the World Series, it would change everything in Chicago. I wasn't much of a fan of ownership, especially in the wake of the meltdown that the Bulls saw over Jordan vs Krause vs Jackson..

 

Then 2005 happened. The bandwagon filled up, just like I expected it to. Then Sox fans reactions to 2006 to 2008 flew in the face of everything that they used to say about them needing a winner, and so on. 2012 we were in first place for all but the last week of the season. Still no one showed up. Then the the narrative changed from just having a good team, or a playoff team, to a team that has to win all of the time for people to show up. Over that decade the other narratives changed as well. At one point it was the neighborhood, or nightlife, or parking, the angles of the upper deck, or even the colors of the seats. In general Sox fans don't show up unless something extra-special is going on, and they get incredibly defensive if you don't accept all of the excuses that they offer. I don't get why it is some sort of insult to draw this conclusion from the obvious history sitting right in front of us. Sox fans are a bandwagon bunch as a whole.

Basically I think you're making an argument that the team needs to be moved.

[Dick Allen]

No, my point is that a fanbase which fills a park constantly every single game can still be pretty down on its team. Especially when they're rotten, and it's been a while since Boston has endured multiple losing years in a row like we have.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the problem isn't people like us overreacting to this team being rotten. Maybe the problem is them being rotten.

But why do they show up in Boston, but not the south side of Chicago? If you think the team is so rotten, why do you and anyone else who constantly rips anything they see, continue to spend so many hours with it? I would think there would be something more productive in your life than spending so much time with something that does nothing but bother you. Unless it makes you feel superior thinking you have all of the answers after the White Sox fail. I do notice there are several posters here that during games the Sox are winning are usually too busy to be posting, but the minute something goes wrong....they can throw up multiple posts and stay on for hours. Maybe some people just like being miserable.

[southsider2k5]

No, my point is that a fanbase which fills a park constantly every single game can still be pretty down on its team. Especially when they're rotten, and it's been a while since Boston has endured multiple losing years in a row like we have.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the problem isn't people like us overreacting to this team being rotten. Maybe the problem is them being rotten.

 

Yet Fenway is still sold out almost every single night, and at prices that dwarf ours. The Red Sox get to drop an incredible number of dollars on Yoan Moncada, while we stress about going a bit over slot on Carlos Rodon. THAT is the difference. It is why the Red Sox get to go out and buy a new team, while we have to fret about every signing.

[Balta1701]

But why do they show up in Boston, but not the south side of Chicago? If you think the team is so rotten, why do you and anyone else who constantly rips anything they see, continue to spend so many hours with it? I would think there would be something more productive in your life than spending so much time with something that does nothing but bother you. Unless it makes you feel superior thinking you have all of the answers after the White Sox fail. I do notice there are several posters here that during games the Sox are winning are usually too busy to be posting, but the minute something goes wrong....they can throw up multiple posts and stay on for hours. Maybe some people just like being miserable.

Welcome to the world of being a fan of a mediocre franchise. You can't look away, and you hope that at some point you'll be rewarded with a bit of success.

[caulfield12]

Apparently you don't read anything that doesn't fit your pre-set agenda. I have even compared our attendance to other teams, including Detroit, to make the point. Even after two of the worst seasons in the entire franchises history, their attendance went up after a 72 win season. Ours goes down after a playoff run.

 

We have a small and bandwagon fan base. Nothing you have said disproves any of that. In fact much of what you say about what it takes to get fans to actually show up only reinforces that.

 

And no, I don't listen to sports talk radio. The last thing I need is to listen to hours of meatball fans complaining about everything under the sun.

 

 

Then how do you explain the White Soc and Cubs having the exact same number of local Chicago m.s.a./local fans attending games in the 2010 season....with the only difference the 25% uptick for tourism/regional/historic site traffic that no other team other than maybe the Red Sox can count on?

[Balta1701]

Yet Fenway is still sold out almost every single night, and at prices that dwarf ours. The Red Sox get to drop an incredible number of dollars on Yoan Moncada, while we stress about going a bit over slot on Carlos Rodon. THAT is the difference. It is why the Red Sox get to go out and buy a new team, while we have to fret about every signing.

And how exactly did they get there? They put winning teams on the field with payrolls that were in the top 5-10, the range we were in from 2008-2011, and the end result was that they packed the ballpark and were able to grow that revenue base into one of the top in baseball. We had top 10 payrolls for 5 of 6 years, every year from 2006-2011 except 2009, and we wound up with 1 wild card birth to show for it. During the years the Red Sox moved from having a payroll around #10 to #2-3, they never fielded a sub .500 team. They earned that full ballpark. We earned our half empty one.

[Dick Allen]

Then how do you explain the White Soc and Cubs having the exact same number of local Chicago m.s.a./local fans attending games in the 2010 season....with the only difference the 25% uptick for tourism/regional/historic site traffic that no other team other than maybe the Red Sox can count on?

There is a finite number of tickets available. If you really think if no one from any other state were allowed to attend a Cubs or Sox game that their attendance figures would be close, let's just say Roger Daltry wouldn't appreciate your presence at one of his concerts.

[LittleHurt05]

Then how do you explain the White Soc and Cubs having the exact same number of local Chicago m.s.a./local fans attending games in the 2010 season....with the only difference the 25% uptick for tourism/regional/historic site traffic that no other team other than maybe the Red Sox can count on?

 

2010 Cubs attendance: 3,062,973

2010 Sox attendance: 2,194,378

Difference: 868,595

 

Difference divided by Sox attendance = 39.5%

 

Not sure where your 25% came from?

[Dick Allen]

2010 Cubs attendance: 3,062,973

2010 Sox attendance: 2,194,378

Difference: 868,595

 

Difference divided by Sox attendance = 39.5%

 

Not sure where your 25% came from?

The other thing to keep in mind is if the Sox played as many weekday day games as the Cubs played back then, their attendance would even be lower.

[southsider2k5]

And how exactly did they get there? They put winning teams on the field with payrolls that were in the top 5-10, the range we were in from 2008-2011, and the end result was that they packed the ballpark and were able to grow that revenue base into one of the top in baseball. We had top 10 payrolls for 5 of 6 years, every year from 2006-2011 except 2009, and we wound up with 1 wild card birth to show for it. During the years the Red Sox moved from having a payroll around #10 to #2-3, they never fielded a sub .500 team. They earned that full ballpark. We earned our half empty one.

 

The Red Sox haven't had a year under 30k since 1998. So it isn't like this is a new phenomenon that corresponds with them making three playoff appearances in a row for the first time in their history in 2003 to 2005, which is apparently the bare minimum for White Sox fans to show up according to this thread. In fact they have only made the playoffs once in the 2010's. Despite that, they are still averaging 36.5K a night with a team that has a record pretty much the same as ours.

[caulfield12]

We keep hearing two lousy examples.

 

2008 had a huge falloff in attendance for two obvious reasons. The complete debacle that was 2007 paired with the total demise that was the second half of 2006. Every study has shown the positive effects of winning a World Series wear off in 4-5 years. Exactly what happened. Not to mention the fact that sales are usually 80% a reflection of the previous season...not "in season" walk ups.

 

That's also a huge reason 2012 was disappointing....what happened in 2011? Another complete meltdown of historic proportions where Dunn was regularly earning column space in the NY Times.

 

Other than that, we have some evidence (but not definitive proof because of a one-team market and the Illitch ownersip anomaly that Tigers fans are "better" somehow).

 

Meanwhile, we can point to teams like Colorado, Arizona, Seattle, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincy, KC, the Mets until this season despite a new stadium, Toronto, Baltimore and Minnesota (look at their attendance this year after four losing seasons despite being a "winner" so far). And Braves fans were notorious for not showing up in the regular season or even during the playoffs because they didn't truly believe their teams could win it all.

 

The main outliers are TB (stadium), Cubs, Cardinals, Brewers, A's, Marlins and Tigers. (There's also zero relevance comparing us to the Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Dodgers or even the Angels).

 

So i just named 13 franchises that are very similar to us in responding to winners.

 

On the other side of the ledger is the Brewers, Cubs, Cards and Tigers.

 

 

Maybe we should hire the Brewers' entire staff, steal their stadium and move it to a more optimal location...that seems to be the only conclusion to draw. There's certainly no debating we got the very worst of all the new stadiums built in the last 25 years, unless younwant to argue Citi Field in NY.