Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:08 PM) We keep hearing two lousy examples. 2008 had a huge falloff in attendance for two obvious reasons. The complete debacle that was 2007 paired with the total demise that was the second half of 2006. Every study has shown the positive effects of winning a World Series wear off in 4-5 years. Exactly what happened. Not to mention the fact that sales are usually 80% a reflection of the previous season...not "in season" walk ups. That's also a huge reason 2012 was disappointing....what happened in 2011? Another complete meltdown of historic proportions where Dunn was regularly earning column space in the NY Times. Other than that, we have some evidence (but not definitive proof because of a one-team market and the Illitch ownersip anomaly that Tigers fans are "better" somehow). Meanwhile, we can point to teams like Colorado, Arizona, Seattle, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincy, KC, the Mets until this season despite a new stadium, Toronto, Baltimore and Minnesota (look at their attendance this year after four losing seasons despite being a "winner" so far). And Braves fans were notorious for not showing up in the regular season or even during the playoffs because they didn't truly believe their teams could win it all. The main outliers are TB (stadium), Cubs, Cardinals, Brewers, A's, Marlins and Tigers. (There's also zero relevance comparing us to the Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Dodgers or even the Angels). So i just named 13 franchises that are very similar to us in responding to winners. On the other side of the ledger is the Brewers, Cubs, Cards and Tigers. Maybe we should hire the Brewers' entire staff, steal their stadium and move it to a more optimal location...that seems to be the only conclusion to draw. There's certainly no debating we got the very worst of all the new stadiums built in the last 25 years, unless younwant to argue Citi Field in NY. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 18, 2015 -> 10:09 PM) * Finally, how can the White Sox, after winning five in a row on the road, and having Kluber AND Sale on the mound, only draw 17,712 fans? What was wrong with the weather? Blackhawks again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:34 PM) Basically I think you're making an argument that the team needs to be moved. And as the stadium ages year after year, I feel like that argument can get a bit more compelling over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 22, 2015 -> 01:56 PM) The Red Sox haven't had a year under 30k since 1998. So it isn't like this is a new phenomenon that corresponds with them making three playoff appearances in a row for the first time in their history in 2003 to 2005, which is apparently the bare minimum for White Sox fans to show up according to this thread. In fact they have only made the playoffs once in the 2010's. Despite that, they are still averaging 36.5K a night with a team that has a record pretty much the same as ours. As soon as we have a top 3 payroll, are the only team in a major media market with an RSN that generates revenues greater than most Central American nations, three World Series winners within a decade and the most historic baseball palace in the entire world....then your example can begin to be relevant. It's like saying we might as well wish for Illitch, Moreno or Mark Cuban to buy the franchise and operate it like a hobby/passion instead of pure business/return on investment play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:14 PM) And as the stadium ages year after year, I feel like that argument can get a bit more compelling over time. The stadium is fine. The seats are a few years old. They do concrete work every year, sometimes even during the season. They are due a couple new boards soon, but they are going to be there for a while. JR's deal is too sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:15 PM) As soon as we have a top 3 payroll, are the only team in a major media market with an RSN that generates revenues greater than most Central American nations, three World Series winners within a decade and the most historic baseball palace in the entire world....then your example can begin to be relevant. It's like saying we might as well wish for Illitch, Moreno or Mark Cuban to buy the franchise and operate it like a hobby/passion instead of pure business/return on investment play. Even before that, fans were going to games in Boston. Long before they made three straight playoff appearances, fans were going to games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:14 PM) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 18, 2015 -> 10:09 PM) * Finally, how can the White Sox, after winning five in a row on the road, and having Kluber AND Sale on the mound, only draw 17,712 fans? What was wrong with the weather? Blackhawks again? Did the White Sox begin the season in a fashion that demonstrated to anyone they were prepared to play...or even competitive? No, they got blown out by the Twins and Royals. And, as we ALL know, 1983 is the only season we've improved in the second half of a season and sustained it into the playoffs. And actually, those numbers were still a 25% improvement on similar dates last April and May. Progress! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:16 PM) Even before that, fans were going to games in Boston. Long before they made three straight playoff appearances, fans were going to games. It was only a year before the White Sox won that the Red Sox ended their drought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:16 PM) Even before that, fans were going to games in Boston. Long before they made three straight playoff appearances, fans were going to games. As balta noted, if the ownership groups in Chicago (and Cleveland, and Miami, and Oakland, and TB) can't succeed and continue to blame the fans instead of the product/stadium, better to sell to someone who can or move the team to a more promising market or a better facility. Common sense. Edited May 22, 2015 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 22, 2015 -> 04:16 PM) Even before that, fans were going to games in Boston. Long before they made three straight playoff appearances, fans were going to games. In 1997 we were 350000 tickets behind them with neither team making the playoffs. In 1998, we finished under .500, they made the playoffs, and we were 1 million tickets behind them. In 1999, the Kids can Play, we were a million tickets behind them again. In 2000, we won that division, they missed the playoffs, and the gap narrowed to 600k. How about we just try winning for a few years and see if it works? I promise to apologize if it doesn't, fair deal? We've done the 7 years without a playoff appearance experiment and it seems to be doing a poor job of filling the ballpark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:16 PM) The stadium is fine. The seats are a few years old. They do concrete work every year, sometimes even during the season. They are due a couple new boards soon, but they are going to be there for a while. JR's deal is too sweet. In other words, despite fickle fans, their current sweetheart deal is way too profitable not to exploit in baseball's current economic environment. They have no incentive to sell or move the team. Great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:23 PM) In 1997 we were 350000 tickets behind them with neither team making the playoffs. In 1998, we finished under .500, they made the playoffs, and we were 1 million tickets behind them. In 1999, the Kids can Play, we were a million tickets behind them again. In 2000, we won that division, they missed the playoffs, and the gap narrowed to 600k. How about we just try winning for a few years and see if it works? I promise to apologize if it doesn't, fair deal? We've done the 7 years without a playoff appearance experiment and it seems to be doing a poor job of filling the ballpark. Hence the "Bandwagon Fans" part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 22, 2015 -> 02:37 PM) Hence the "Bandwagon Fans" part. And, other than the Tigers and Red Sox, which teams don't experience that? Is anyone surprised at all that the Royals are averaging 30,000 this year in one of the smallest markets in baseball despite not winning the World Series last season? Or that the Twins aren't very far ahead of the White Sox with a winning team and lovely new outdoor stadium? Edited May 22, 2015 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 Scott Merkin @scottmerkin 15m15 minutes ago Greg Walker, Ozzie Guillen and Mike Gellinger just a few of the dignitaries expected to be here Saturday for Konerko jersey retirement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 Scott Merkin @scottmerkin 26m26 minutes ago Sale on PK: "He’s arguably, really not arguably, probably the best player to ever come to this franchise, on and off the field." More Sale on PK: "When you think of the word professional, he was every bit of that definition." Scott Merkin @scottmerkin 28m28 minutes ago Konerko had some TV offers coming down the stretch last year. Said that's the furthest thing down the list on future baseball jobs Dan Hayes @CSNHayes 1h1 hour ago Paul Konerko very passionate about hockey these days. Went to Gretzky fantasy camp. Going to #Blackhawks tomorrow night. #WhiteSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 From 2005-2010 White Sox won at least 88 games 4 times. After 2006, attendance went down every season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 22, 2015 -> 07:32 PM) From 2005-2010 White Sox won at least 88 games 4 times. After 2006, attendance went down every season. From 2006-2015 the White Sox are 736-760 with 1 wild card birth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 22, 2015 -> 07:15 PM) From 2006-2015 the White Sox are 736-760 with 1 wild card birth. You are wrong again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) I got 1 ticket available for tomorrow. $25. Section 557, Row 5, Seat 10. My buddy and I own the other 2 seats, but we won't be using them. We will be in the bullpen bar, so you'll have 3 seats to yourself if you choose to sit there. EDIT: Sold them for $12. Edited May 23, 2015 by Chilihead90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIZ-SOX Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:22 PM) As balta noted, if the ownership groups in Chicago (and Cleveland, and Miami, and Oakland, and TB) can't succeed and continue to blame the fans instead of the product/stadium, better to sell to someone who can or move the team to a more promising market or a better facility. Common sense. The White Sox aren't going anywhere. They have a newish stadium in the third largest market in the league. Even with trash attendance, they're the 16th most valuable franchise in the MLB, up 40% from last year. Attendance just doesn't have nearly as big of an impact on the bottom line as it used to, which is definitely a good thing for JR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Just watched the Paulie video. My fav memory is still 2010 getting hit in the face and then jacking a 3 run home run the next AB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Ah who am I kidding, still the best Sox vid ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 23, 2015 -> 12:11 AM) You are wrong again. Really? Tell me which of those numbers is incorrect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 QUOTE (MIZ-SOX @ May 23, 2015 -> 01:39 AM) The White Sox aren't going anywhere. They have a newish stadium in the third largest market in the league. Even with trash attendance, they're the 16th most valuable franchise in the MLB, up 40% from last year. Attendance just doesn't have nearly as big of an impact on the bottom line as it used to, which is definitely a good thing for JR. FWIW, this stadium is approaching 25 years old. That puts it in the 10 oldest ballparks in the league, plus a lot of the older ones (Fenway, Wrigley, Angels, Kaufmann) have undergone major makeovers. If you drop those out since they kind of became new-ish stadiums, only really Dodgers Stadium, the Oakland Coliseum, Rogers Center, and Tropicana field are genuinely older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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