Irreconcilable Differences

[JoshPR]

1990 was a fun season. Sox ended 9 games out and won 95 games. Everybody ran on that team.

[ptatc]

I'm almost there. I don't see any future in rooting for this organization. My Sox badge and decoder ring may have to be taken away.

 

Farm system - what has Buddy Bell and scouting really done to keep their job. It seems some of these youngsters are clueless about baseball on things that high schoolers could do. They can't run the bases. If they can field they can't hit then when they can't field they can't hit either. Trading for prospects is the worst thing they could ever do since when they become a Sox they do the bad things in baseball. Instruction has to be terrible. This organization hasn't been able to develop a catcher. You can't win a division if a Tyler Flowers is your catcher.

 

Hitting - I still believe the AL and NL are two different leagues. Will 2nd time be the charm of taking a NL player and transitioning them to DH. There's not enough inter league play where they can transition to be an immediate success. I've always wondered if the stadium contributes to players losing any discipline of situational hitting. Is this even taught in the minors? This team could probably go through a dozen hitting coaches and the results are the same. So maybe scouting is to blame even with free agents.

 

Ownership - The 'inbred' mentality of keeping it in the family needs to go. I guess that will only change when people in the organization pass away. The north side takes chances on experienced managers. The results are not always great but they think it's a priority. In this century we've had Jerry Manuel, at least Ozzie was groomed into management from another organization. Even when Ventura was hired I thought it was a WTF decision. Who is the next former Sox retread? Fans are not buying it. If they fired Ventura and got Gardenhire I don't know if there would be much difference but at least it would be someone different and spark some interest.

 

They won a WS during the KW era but it seems this team was more exciting during the Schuler era. They had untouchable prospects. Mark B. was a product of the Schuler and his fundamentals on the mound can't be touched by most of the kids today. Before the internet era we had to drive back home because there were no tickets. If we could only have that strike season back.

 

This is one of the most boring teams to watch and it's been that way for a while. Even Stone mentioned that on the SCORE last year.

 

Our stud young players like Sale and Abreu did not get poisoned by the farm system. Maybe they realize that and don't want to ruin Rodon. If he is better off with Coop then shouldn't Coop's philosophy be spread to the minors? I don't know if that is the case.

 

The loyalty thing stops short of the fan base. Why don't they raid successful organizations when it comes to coaching, scouting and philosophy?

 

It's like watching a movie over and over hoping this time the end will be different.

Like Dale Sveum and Mike quade?

[oldsox]

Agree 100%

 

Last night, Bryant and Russell homered.

Today we're deciding to sit Rodon out for his next start.

 

Next, we will return to Samardzija trade talk. Meanwhile, the Cubs have about 5-6 guys they could trade to improve their team's chances THIS year (ahead of schedule) by improving their rotation and/or back end of the bullpen One step forward for Cubs, one step backwards for White Sox.

 

It's also the ongoing issues with Ventura, whereas the Cubs lured one of the brightest baseball minds and best media manipulators this side of Buck Showalter in Joe Maddon.

 

Let's not even get started on comparing Schwarber with Anderson or Hawkins.

Schwarber hitting .308 with 10 HR and OPS close to 1100 in AA. He's tailed off a bit.

[ptatc]

I think I may be showing age or"old-fashioned" thinking but I've never tied being a fan of a team to how much it wins. I'm a fan of the team because I grew up in a family from around here and we followed baseball and the White Sox. Same with the Bears. I just don't think the term "fan" is tied to winning. If that's the case then it's not my traditional view of a fan. You have a better day when they win and a worse one when they lose. Some people take it too far and have a bad day but that can happen.

[greg775]

Some great posts on this thread I can't even comment on all of them. Great stuff, folks.

 

I will say it's going to be weird when we have a GOOD team again. I mean the team has shown signs the last few years, the nights the Sox bring it. The overall record hasn't been god-awful, but the team has been (unfortunately not Joe) maddening the last few seasons. Even Ozzie's last team or two was bizarre in the way it lost games.

I have to be a fan, it's in my blood, but again ... I'm gonna be so happy when the team gets legitimately good again. Sorry to say that WILL NEVER happen UNTIL the defense improves (to go with pitching as least as good on paper as this year's club). It just won't. When you have a crappy defensive team you are going to be .500 at best.

Edited May 23, 2015 by greg775

[kitekrazy]

Some great posts on this thread I can't even comment on all of them. Great stuff, folks.

 

I will say it's going to be weird when we have a GOOD team again. I mean the team has shown signs the last few years, the nights the Sox bring it. The overall record hasn't been god-awful, but the team has been (unfortunately not Joe) maddening the last few seasons. Even Ozzie's last team or two was bizarre in the way it lost games.

I have to be a fan, it's in my blood, but again ... I'm gonna be so happy when the team gets legitimately good again. Sorry to say that WILL NEVER happen UNTIL the defense improves (to go with pitching as least as good on paper as this year's club). It just won't. When you have a crappy defensive team you are going to be .500 at best.

 

The way things are going I doubt that. I think that will only change when other people run this organization.

 

[kitekrazy]

Good luck, Cubs have always been for the bandwagon/front runner/fair weather crowd.

 

A team that hasn't won a WS in 100 years and last made the playoffs 8 years ago has a bandwagon? Not a good example.

 

 

LOL! That reply didn't have a lot of thought behind it. I would think Sox fans fit the bandwagon/front runner/fair weather crowd blueprint more than Cub fans. These senseless fan labels mean nothing at a ticket gate. Maybe Don Cooper could increase attendance by calling out fans for being bandwagon/front runner/fair weather fans.

Sorry dude they don't hand out trophies to fans.

 

[greg775]

The way things are going I doubt that. I think that will only change when other people run this organization.

You may be right (lyrics, Billy Joel). ...

 

I was thinking that baseball hasn't done the Sox any favors either with the unbalanced schedule. I can't see the Sox becoming an organization that can beat those Central teams consistently. We're always going to be the big-city team that the other teams in our division want to beat. Sox are so nonchalant and noncompetitive (blah might be a better word) against its own divisional brethren that a .500 record any year overall in the Central would be a helluva record.

 

I can't believe baseball cow-towed to Steinbrenner who wanted to play the Red Sox 19 times a year and agreed to this bulls*** unbalanced schedule. Sox would fare much better playing all the teams, not the boring Central Division squads.

 

Sox fans are smart ... who the hell wants to go see the Twins, Royals and Indians all the time? Not our paying customers.

[kitekrazy]

You are the one throwing a 40% drop off in soxtalk membership compared to 05-08. Why don't you go ahead and prove it.

 

 

This site is thriving despite a huge drop in messageboard usage everywhere. Not only thriving, expanding, growing, and evolving.

 

This is the only thing I enjoy about being a fan. I'm more of a fan of Sox Talk than the White Sox. That other site has regressed compared to here. Some of their threads can be quite lame.

 

[kitekrazy]

You never would have lasted as a Sox fan in the 60s through the turn of the century.

 

I'm a decade short of that. As a kid in the late 60's I was a Cub fan.

 

 

 

[kitekrazy]

You may be right (lyrics, Billy Joel). ...

 

I was thinking that baseball hasn't done the Sox any favors either with the unbalanced schedule. I can't see the Sox becoming an organization that can beat those Central teams consistently. We're always going to be the big-city team that the other teams in our division want to beat. Sox are so nonchalant and noncompetitive (blah might be a better word) against its own divisional brethren that a .500 record any year overall in the Central would be a helluva record.

 

I can't believe baseball cow-towed to Steinbrenner who wanted to play the Red Sox 19 times a year and agreed to this bulls*** unbalanced schedule. Sox would fare much better playing all the teams, not the boring Central Division squads.

 

Sox fans are smart ... who the hell wants to go see the Twins, Royals and Indians all the time? Not our paying customers.

 

How does that define smart? Thee teams were considered major rivals in certain decades. The Sox were the Twin's b**** during the Manuel era and the Indians' b**** during the Lamont era.

 

[kitekrazy]

Frankly, and I know this is going to seem blasphemous to some, but I think Sox fans overall are watching the transformation of the franchise on the north side and wishing it was us. I haven't completely given up hope on the Reinsdorf regime or this team and its future, but our tanking of the last couple of seasons would sure seem a lot tolerable if it was overseen by Epstein/Hoyer. I know I wanted Theo on the south side but knew it wouldn't happen because of JRs loyalty to KW. Why didn't we make a push for Maddon? Because of JR/KWs loyalty to RV. Maddon, if given the choice, would have taken the Cubs job anyway. Their tanking has produced what appears to be a team that is going to be playing an exciting brand of baseball, much more so then the White Sox have been. I hate to pile the pressure on the Sox even more, but they REALLY need to start finding a way to consistently play exciting baseball. Exciting, but not necessarily dominating baseball. Because, and again this is going to sound blasphemous to some (I'm not a Cub hater like I used to be pre-2005), but I won't fault the casual fan for opting to watch Cubs baseball instead of the Sox.

 

I won't ever switch sides but if it gets to the point where the Sox keep playing like we're used to, and the Cubs keep getting better and better, you better believe I'd rather spend the little time I have to watch baseball games watching an invigorating brand of baseball then the same lethargic baseball that we're getting used to. I'll always be a Sox fan first and foremost. If the teams met in the World Series, it's Sox all the way. But this is just the harsh reality for some. The Cubs represent the city I am from too, and they have done literally everything with their baseball operations that I wish the Sox had done. It's hard for me to not respect what they've done up to this point.

 

Not me. This wasn't meant to be a Sox vs. Cubs thread. I pointed out that the Cubs organization tends to value experienced leadership where this organization doesn't. The Sox use the fan favorite Rolodex. Interesting that the Cubs when using experienced managers like Baker and Pinella have failed miserably and Ozzie who was groomed outside the organization managed a World Series.

 

[kitekrazy]

Casual fans are gone for good at this point. All you here on radio and TV is a Cubs love fest 100%. If someone has only so much disposable income they are going to the North side not the South side. Sox have a uphill battle at this point, I do not think they will ever win with JR as owner. I have said this before, but the blind loyalty is killing this franchise.

 

They wont.

 

Blackhawk fans suffered until Bill Wirtz died.

 

I'm a life long Colts fan and after the late 70's they turned into the worst sports franchise in history, the Bob Irsay died and his son has turned it around. He made a mistake of letting Bill Polian's son get too involved, similar to something Reinsdorf would do.

 

I guess JR doesn't like to fire people or change things if the results are similar or worse.

 

 

 

 

 

[BigEdWalsh]

Not me. This wasn't meant to be a Sox vs. Cubs thread. I pointed out that the Cubs organization tends to value experienced leadership where this organization doesn't. The Sox use the fan favorite Rolodex. Interesting that the Cubs when using experienced managers like Baker and Pinella have failed miserably and Ozzie who was groomed outside the organization managed a World Series.

The Cubs have failed miserably period. Everyone is all hyped right now on their young guys. They haven't accomplished anything yet.

[2nd_city_saint787]

This too makes me sad. Apparently I'm a sad drunk.

[iamshack]

Interesting timing for this thread.

 

I think this thread would have been more apropos after the 2012 season. Much of what the OP stated he admired about the Cubs has been happening, perhaps on a slightly smaller scale, or with a slightly different recipe, on the South Side. Rick Hahn has been purging the organization of the ghosts of the failed '06-'12 seasons. The old stench has been aired out and swept out. What we're seeing now is a breath of fresh air relative to the last 5 years.

 

I'm not a fan of RV or his coaching staff (outside of Cooper), but with Sale, Q, Rodon, Abreu, Eaton, et al, I think there is much to be excited about. While I'll concede I agree with your point in regards to the Cubs baseball operations, I think you're underestimating the changes that have been occurring in plain view with the White Sox.

 

Anyways, I guess the morale of the story is hang in there; I think you'll be pleasantly surprised in short order.

[oldsox]

This is how you spell irreconcilable.

I thought a Mod would have corrected this by now.

[Thad Bosley]

"I haven't completely given up hope on the Reinsdorf regime..."

HA! Oh, I have, and with very good reason. The results of Jerry Reinsdorf's 35 years at the helm of this franchise have been a disaster. He has only one season during his tenure as owner that he can point to and really claim to be an exciting and successful one - '05. During the other 34 years, the team only won the division a measly four times, and the playoff appearances those four years were anything but memorable. And then we wonder why the fan base is dormant. Why we have to operate like a small market team because the team Reinsdorf routinely runs out there is not postseason caliber. That is really a horrible record of futility, no matter how you look at it. No sustainable success for three and a half decades now.

 

Meanwhile, over the years he's publicly fought with the likes of Harry Caray, Carlton Fisk and Larry Himes while remaining unapologetically loyal to people like Kenny Williams, Buddy Bell, Robin Ventura, etc. He dumps Harry Caray and WGN in the '80s in favor of SportsVision. He hires Hawk Harrelson to be GM and ends up losing Tony LaRussa in the process. He blackmails the state of Illinois to build him a new stadium while also providing him with a sweetheart lease deal, and then turns around and directs the construction of an abysmally designed ballpark. He fires Himes who drafted Frank Thomas, Ventura, Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere, and who traded for Lance Johnson and Wilson Alvarez, claiming Himes got the team from "point A to point B", but he didn't think he could get the team to "point C", i.e., the World Series. In his judgement, Ron Schueler was the guy who could do that. How'd that work out for us! It could have happened in '94, except the Chairman chose his burning desire to break the players' union over the World Series aspirations of his team and fans that year. Terry Freaking Bevington! White flag trade. The list goes on and on and on with this failure.

 

This franchise is in desperate need of new leadership, strategy and vision from the very top. That is very clear. Jerry Reinsdorf has been the owner now for 35 years, and he holds claim to a very unimpressive record of achievement. Yes, the WS championship in '05 was amazing, but that does and cannot mask the other 34 years. The White Sox need new ownership. It's that simple.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Thad Bosley

[Dick Allen]

HA! Oh, I have, and with very good reason. The results of Jerry Reinsdorf's 35 years at the helm of this franchise have been a disaster. He has only one season during his tenure as owner that he can point to and really claim to be an exciting and successful one - '05. During the other 34 years, the team only won the division a measly four times, and the playoff appearances those four years were anything but memorable. And then we wonder why the fan base is dormant. Why we have to operate like a small market team because the team Reinsdorf routinely runs out there is not postseason caliber. That is really a horrible record of futility, no matter how you look at it. No sustainable success for three and a half decades now.

 

Meanwhile, over the years he's publicly fought with the likes of Harry Caray, Carlton Fisk and Larry Himes while remaining unapologetically loyal to people like Kenny Williams, Buddy Bell, Robin Ventura, etc. He dumps Harry Caray and WGN in the '80s in favor of SportsVision. He hires Hawk Harrelson to be GM and ends up losing Tony LaRussa in the process. He blackmails the state of Illinois to build him a new stadium while also providing him with a sweetheart lease deal, and then turns around and directs the construction of an abysmally designed ballpark. He fires Himes who drafted Frank Thomas, Ventura, Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere, and who traded for Lance Johnson and Wilson Alvarez, claiming Himes got the team from "point A to point B", but he didn't think he could get the team to "point C", i.e., the World Series. In his judgement, Ron Schueler was the guy who could do that. How'd that work out for us! It could have happened in '94, except the Chairman chose his burning desire to break the players' union over the World Series aspirations of his team and fans that year. Terry Freaking Bevington! White flag trade. The list goes on and on and on with this failure.

 

This franchise is in desperate need of new leadership, strategy and vision from the very top. That is very clear. Jerry Reinsdorf has been the owner now for 35 years, and he holds claim to a very unimpressive record of achievement. Yes, the WS championship in '05 was amazing, but that does and cannot mask the other 34 years. The White Sox need new ownership. It's that simple.

 

LMAO.

 

[RockRaines]

Cool, later.

[southsider2k5]

Maybe this is the old man in me speaking, but if baseball makes you miserable, you are doing it wrong, and you need to step away. Sports is supposed to be something to get enjoyment out of and forget your troubles for a few hours. If it is stress, you are missing the point. Judging by many posters here, there are more than a few of you in this spot. Being a Sox fan isn't the most important thing in life. If it is causing you angst, find something else that brings you joy. I am a Sox fan because even a bad Sox game is better than a bad day at work, on the golf course, or just about anything else. I love baseball and I love my team. If your life changes because of a baseball team, your priorities are all wrong.

[oldsox]

I thought the 1940's were bad for us Sox fans, but there was always hope, and sure enough, things got a let better in the 50's, thanks largely to our trades for Pierce, Fox, and Minoso. If you're a fan, you support and pull for the team, regardless. Kind of like that old Lou Rawls song about Ups and Downs and Crazy Turn-Arounds.

[flavum]

A couple things...

 

Baseball should be put in perspective of life...duh. I think most people know that.

 

But here's the thing...if your sports fandom is a big part of your life, you're not alone. That's why the American sports are so popular, and why grown humans buy jerseys and hats and care who is drafted, and why you have opinions on what trades should be made, and which free agents they should sign.

 

No, you shouldn't lose sleep over the White Sox. But dammit, don't be ashamed to voice your opinion and want YOUR team to be better. That's part of being a passionate fan.

[kitekrazy]

Interesting timing for this thread.

 

I think this thread would have been more apropos after the 2012 season. Much of what the OP stated he admired about the Cubs has been happening, perhaps on a slightly smaller scale, or with a slightly different recipe, on the South Side. Rick Hahn has been purging the organization of the ghosts of the failed '06-'12 seasons. The old stench has been aired out and swept out. What we're seeing now is a breath of fresh air relative to the last 5 years.

 

I'm not a fan of RV or his coaching staff (outside of Cooper), but with Sale, Q, Rodon, Abreu, Eaton, et al, I think there is much to be excited about. While I'll concede I agree with your point in regards to the Cubs baseball operations, I think you're underestimating the changes that have been occurring in plain view with the White Sox.

 

Anyways, I guess the morale of the story is hang in there; I think you'll be pleasantly surprised in short order.

 

I'm the OP and I only pointed out the Cubs look for experienced management. They only thing I would admire is if I were a Cub fan they have a exciting team young team to watch. While things look great for them, in perspective outside of the Cardinals their division has gotten worse. It's like Ventura's first year. The Sox weren't better the other teams got worse.

 

The only organization I truly admire is the Cardinals. Does any other organization come close to them in the past 20 years? They can let guys like Puljols go and still win.

 

[Balta1701]

The only organization I truly admire is the Cardinals. Does any other organization come close to them in the past 20 years? They can let guys like Puljols go and still win.

The Red Sox have what, 3 titles with 3 very, very different teams, each assembled a different way, right? The only constant guy I can think of through all of them is Ortiz. The first one was led by Manroid and co, the 2nd was Youkilis and Beckett with Ramirez still around, the third was driven by a great year from Ellsbury and Napoli and Victorino. Pedroia was there for the 2nd pair, Varitek around for the first 2, etc.