Irreconcilable Differences

[fathom]

The Sox didn't do much in 2011 other than Dunn so I am not sure what this other big offseason is but "selling offseasons" does seem have to caught some momentum amongst Sox fan gripes. I still don't know the offseason that has been the problem this year. It's been 2B, 3B, C, SP4 and SP5 along with a lot of established players unexpectedly underperforming.

 

The "All In" marketing after they signed or re-signed Dunn, AJP and Konerko in 2011. That was the most similar offseason to what we just saw. The thing is, I completely agree with the hyping the Marketing Dept. did. Problem going forward is that now that the fans have been burned twice believing they were going to see massive improvements on the field, will they be as likely to fall for it again?

[LDF]

 

 

i personally think that there is one sentence that has not been mention, i think.

 

the fans frustration for the sox FO for not finishing off the job. i really think many fans, without really knowing it, are more upset at that, b/c many saw the rebuild of the team.

 

with the way the team started and with Sale being hurt. is it the FO responsibility for not obtaining more pieces?

[shysocks]

You actually are proving my point again. Kansas City needed one playoff appearance in 30 years to get fans to show back up. The White Sox got 2 in 4 years and their attendance dropped over the last two years, and the next season after again.

 

Nothing about what the Royals have done could be called "a nice three or four year run of sustained success".

That didn't prove your point at all, because Kansas City hasn't had time for the drop in the last two years that you cite. Their attendance in 2014 and 2015 mirrors what happened with the Sox in 05 and 06.

[fathom]

i personally think that there is one sentence that has not been mention, i think.

 

the fans frustration for the sox FO for not finishing off the job. i really think many fans, without really knowing it, are more upset at that, b/c many saw the rebuild of the team.

 

with the way the team started and with Sale being hurt. is it the FO responsibility for not obtaining more pieces?

 

Hahn could have added Russell Martin and Volquez to this team, and they'd still be mediocre at this point. No way anyone could have imagined about 85% of the roster underachieving at this point.

[southsider2k5]

That didn't prove your point at all, because Kansas City hasn't had time for the drop in the last two years that you cite. Their attendance in 2014 and 2015 mirrors what happened with the Sox in 05 and 06.

 

It did, because I keep getting told that it isn't about one appearance, it is about multiple appearances. because the Sox have gotten to the playoffs, and had attedance fall.

[fathom]

It did, because I keep getting told that it isn't about one appearance, it is about multiple appearances. because the Sox have gotten to the playoffs, and had attedance fall.

 

For KC, I wonder if it has to do with the chase to get back so they can close the deal this year? They were so close last season, they clearly have left their fans wanting more.

[LDF]

Hahn could have added Russell Martin and Volquez to this team, and they'd still be mediocre at this point. No way anyone could have imagined about 85% of the roster underachieving at this point.

 

you do have a great point. i esp was spouting on Volquez. but the other part is the abysmal beginning this team had.

 

i am trying to think this out, if the sox had picked up a pitcher, Volq and a cat, could this team have started out differently???

 

i hate to say this, and its not b/c i want to pounce on him..... it goes to RV and the FO and how much they had in this recipe.

[fathom]

You're not wrong about the 1-3 starters. Our defense surely isn't helping. They're all out FIPing their ERAs though so I I am not sure how much it's their ability.

 

Sale - ERA 4.21, FIP 3.49, FIPx 3.35.

 

Samardzija - ERA 4.38, FIP 3.72, FIPx 3.84

 

Quintana - ERA 4.67, FIP 3.38, FIPx 3.73

 

Defense has been killing the ERA of the pitchers, as there have been just an insane amount of plays that haven't gone as errors that have resulted in big innings for the opposition. Last night's first inning might be the best example of this that you'll ever see.

[kitekrazy]

Defense has been killing the ERA of the pitchers, as there have been just an insane amount of plays that haven't gone as errors that have resulted in big innings for the opposition. Last night's first inning might be the best example of this that you'll ever see.

 

Defense has never been a priority under Kenny Williams and we still see it. The difference in this Sox teams this century was the defenses were better under Ozzie.

 

[fathom]

you do have a great point. i esp was spouting on Volquez. but the other part is the abysmal beginning this team had.

 

i am trying to think this out, if the sox had picked up a pitcher, Volq and a cat, could this team have started out differently???

 

i hate to say this, and its not b/c i want to pounce on him..... it goes to RV and the FO and how much they had in this recipe.

 

Hard to tell, right now it's just a worst case scenario in basically every aspect. Every possible question mark coming into the season has been a negative:

 

- Abreu avoiding soph slump

- LaRoche/Alexei avoiding history of bad starts

- any question marks about Melky hitting without help

- Johnson's defense at 2nd

- Sanchez not being able to hit enough

- Conor's defense

- weak catching tandem

- 4th/5th starters (Danks/Noesi)

[LDF]

Hard to tell, right now it's just a worst case scenario in basically every aspect. Every possible question mark coming into the season has been a negative:

 

- Abreu avoiding soph slump

- LaRoche/Alexei avoiding history of bad starts

- any question marks about Melky hitting without help

- Johnson's defense at 2nd

- Sanchez not being able to hit enough

- Conor's defense

- weak catching tandem

- 4th/5th starters (Danks/Noesi)

 

a great list and i am sure there are a couple more to add.

 

for me, it would deal with the coaches and / or if this team has lost faith in them???

[gatnom]

It did, because I keep getting told that it isn't about one appearance, it is about multiple appearances. because the Sox have gotten to the playoffs, and had attedance fall.

 

If you want to sustain bandwagon fans, you need to keep winning. If you win enough, some of them will become legitimate long term fans.

 

 

 

 

[fathom]

If you want to sustain bandwagon fans, you need to keep winning. If you win enough, some of them will become legitimate long term fans.

 

Also doesn't hurt KC's attendance when they win their first 7 games and get the fans to buy in that they'll be good again this year.

[LDF]

You're trying to create a narrative. Resigning your own players and one big acquisition isn't looked at as a "big offseason" by the industry. The Sox have nothing to compare with this past offseason really. '04-'05 brought in a big influx of players but it was veteran scrap heap pick ups and moving on from very productive hitters in Maggs/Lee. These are unchartered territories for the Sox.

 

I know I'll get a lot of a hate but I don't think a lost season this year deters the Sox from their path. Almost all of our past productive players are going to play to their ability once again. No eight week sample is going to change that.

 

DH LaRoche

1B Abreu

SS Ramirez

LF Cabrera

CF Eaton

RF Garcia

SP1 Sale

SP2 Quintana

SP3 Rodon

SP5 Danks

CL Robertson

LHP Duke

LHP Jennings

RHP Jones

 

We'll have some money to spend despite what Balta thinks ( ) and we will be more insulated in depth. Almost all of our better prospects will be in the higher ranks of the minors so not only can they fathomably help the big league team, they have more perceived value in trade. All of the following will be at AA/AAA.

 

INF: Sanchez, Johnson, Michalczewski, Anderson, Saladino (depth)

OF: Thompson, Hawkins, May, Engel (outside chance)

Pitching: Danish, Montas, Fry, E. Johnson, Webb, Beck, #8 pick.

 

We haven't had depth like that since 2000. Holes will still exist at C/3B/2B/ and we'll need a starter (Samardzija or whoever) but long term the team's state hasn't changed much.

 

this should have gone in the The Optimism Thread.

 

btw, nice post.

[gatnom]

You're trying to create a narrative. Resigning your own players and one big acquisition isn't looked at as a "big offseason" by the industry. The Sox have nothing to compare with this past offseason really. '04-'05 brought in a big influx of players but it was veteran scrap heap pick ups and moving on from very productive hitters in Maggs/Lee. These are unchartered territories for the Sox.

 

I know I'll get a lot of a hate but I don't think a lost season this year deters the Sox from their path. Almost all of our past productive players are going to play to their ability once again. No eight week sample is going to change that.

 

DH LaRoche

1B Abreu

SS Ramirez

LF Cabrera

CF Eaton

RF Garcia

SP1 Sale

SP2 Quintana

SP3 Rodon

SP5 Danks

CL Robertson

LHP Duke

LHP Jennings

RHP Jones

 

We'll have some money to spend despite what Balta thinks ( ) and we will be more insulated in depth. Almost all of our better prospects will be in the higher ranks of the minors so not only can they fathomably help the big league team, they have more perceived value in trade. All of the following will be at AA/AAA.

 

INF: Sanchez, Johnson, Michalczewski, Anderson, Saladino (depth)

OF: Thompson, Hawkins, May, Engel (outside chance)

Pitching: Danish, Montas, Fry, E. Johnson, Webb, Beck, #8 pick.

 

We haven't had depth like that since 2000. Holes will still exist at C/3B/2B/ and we'll need a starter (Samardzija or whoever) but long term the team's state hasn't changed much.

 

The only problem I see is that we don't have the position players to be able to sustain Garcia and Sanchez/Johnson busting. The pitching is there, though.

 

 

[fathom]

You're trying to create a narrative. Resigning your own players and one big acquisition isn't looked at as a "big offseason" by the industry. The Sox have nothing to compare with this past offseason really. '04-'05 brought in a big influx of players but it was veteran scrap heap pick ups and moving on from very productive hitters in Maggs/Lee. These are unchartered territories for the Sox.

 

Sure seemed like a huge few days at the time. Those "All In" billboards were up in no time.

[Balta1701]

I know I'll get a lot of a hate but I don't think a lost season this year deters the Sox from their path. Almost all of our past productive players are going to play to their ability once again. No eight week sample is going to change that.

Guys who might very well not play to what they did in previous seasons:

 

Eaton - are you sure that 2014 Adam Eaton is the real one and not 2015?

Abreu - are you sure that 2014 Jose Abreu is the real one and not 2015?

 

Melky Cabrera - why should I expect that a 30 year old former steroid user is going to snap back to what he was when he was on the juice?

Alexei Ramirez - why should I expect that a guy who is starting to get up there in years will not hit a point where he does fall off?

Adam LaRoche - why should I expect that a guy even farther along in years than Alexei will not fall off further next year?

 

Chris Sale - why should I have confidence in Chris Sale becoming a cheat code again if he cannot/will not use the slider as his out pitch?

Jose Quintana - maybe the projections were right and he really and truly was an amazing 3 year fluke?

 

Some of those guys, let's hope, will find their groove again, but "almost all"?

[Dick Allen]

Honestly, that was the month where I had completely turned off the White Sox because I could see them breaking down and didn't want to watch it happen.

 

But if you think the team needs to move, why won't you just come out and say it?

I never said anything about moving, you should send your resume to Fox News. You make up so many things. Even in 2005, they had a 9.5 game lead in a season they never where not in first place, and drew 50k total for a 3 game series in SEPTEMBER VS. KC.

[bmags]

God this is depressing.

[Balta1701]

I never said anything about moving, you should send your resume to Fox News. You make up so many things. Even in 2005, they had a 9.5 game lead in a season they never where not in first place, and drew 50k total for a 3 game series in SEPTEMBER VS. KC.

So this fan base cannot support a team, even winning is not enough. They should move is the only logical end point of your argument.

[Dick Allen]

So this fan base cannot support a team, even winning is not enough. They should move is the only logical end point of your argument.

No. But winning 3 years in a row, unless it includes multiple WS appearances won't happen if people won't come to games when the team is good. The make money every year. They supposedly didn't when they lost 99 games and that was only $3 million, but included a $10 million signing bonus they gave Abreu after the season.

[Balta1701]

No. But winning 3 years in a row, unless it includes multiple WS appearances won't happen if people won't come to games when the team is good. The make money every year. They supposedly didn't when they lost 99 games and that was only $3 million, but included a $10 million signing bonus they gave Abreu after the season.

So what will bring people to the games? As far as I can tell you still say here "people won't come to games when the team is good"

 

If people won't come to the games when the team is good then the team does not belong in this city. That is the only thing I can take from every single one of your posts - we have a failed fanbase and the only thing keeping this team afloat is the sweetheart deal they got on the stadium revenue.

[Dick Allen]

So what will bring people to the games? As far as I can tell you still say here "people won't come to games when the team is good"

 

If people won't come to the games when the team is good then the team does not belong in this city. That is the only thing I can take from every single one of your posts - we have a failed fanbase and the only thing keeping this team afloat is the sweetheart deal they got on the stadium revenue.

Having to buy season ticket packages for WS tickets. See the 2006 White Sox, and the 2015 Royals.

[Balta1701]

Having to buy season ticket packages for WS tickets. See the 2006 White Sox, and the 2015 Royals.

So you'd be ok with getting to the world series? I'd generally have very few complaints with that too. Unfortunately, that's pretty much the exact opposite of the path we're currently on.

[southsider2k5]

I think the most shocking thing here is how many people are opening advocating for the team to move. After living through the true turn back the clock era, when the team was all but gone, it just blows my mind.