Irreconcilable Differences

[Balta1701]

I don't believe that for a second.

Please, anyone else? This is beyond me.

[LDF]

this is a classic example of how things that is going wrong affects everyone and their opinions on everything.

[kitekrazy]

So what is your solution?

 

You've said before that the White Sox can't rebuild because the fanbase won't survive multiple losing seasons.

 

You've spent the entire thread saying that this bandwagon fan base can't be counted upon to support the team unless they're winning world series - even the division isn't enough.

 

You get angry when someone points out that the logic you present leads to "this team therefore cannot survive in this city".

 

What other options are there?

 

They don't have good people running the minors either. Rumor has it the word "sell" is coming up in the organization. Even with that the same inept people will probably remain for a while. All the people in the minors need to go.

 

[LDF]

They don't have good people running the minors either. Rumor has it the word "sell" is coming up in the organization. Even with that the same inept people will probably remain for a while. All the people in the minors need to go.

 

wasn't there some additions that Hahn has made that is running in parallel with the old timers. i thought Hahn install a copy last during the off season.

[chitownsportsfan]

wow, kite, can you expound on that "sell" comment? I know that JR has been slowly losing power in MLB, culminating with the Manfred appointment. Is he ready to move on?

[Thad Bosley]

If the idea that the Sox either have to have an ideal fan base, or move isn't hyperbole, I don't know what is. It is taking the debate to a ridiculous extreme that completely ignores reality, but then again, that is what most of this debate has been about.

 

BTW, I don't think I ever saw you actually define what a bandwagon fanbase is.

Um, maybe because you never asked me? Or if you did, I missed the request. But even if you did, I don't care to expend the energy to do so. You're the one whining and gnashing your teeth over this notion of bandwagon fans, not me. What I'm interested in is a solution to the attendance problem, which I claim will be solved with more winning, specifically via some exciting play in the offseason - which to date, outside of '05, hasn't happened in our lifetimes. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

[southsider2k5]

Um, maybe because you never asked me? Or if you did, I missed the request. But even if you did, I don't care to expend the energy to do so. You're the one whining and gnashing your teeth over this notion of bandwagon fans, not me. What I'm interested in is a solution to the attendance problem, which I claim will be solved with more winning, specifically via some exciting play in the offseason - which to date, outside of '05, hasn't happened in our lifetimes. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

 

I did a couple of times, but thanks for the non-answer. It tells me that you know the answer.

[LDF]

wow, kite, can you expound on that "sell" comment? I know that JR has been slowly losing power in MLB, culminating with the Manfred appointment. Is he ready to move on?

 

yeah ..... you got me thinking about that. i hate to being accuse of hijacking this discussion, but i am very curious.

 

are they, the sox going to trade what, Hawkins, and of the of prospect listed in the top 30, like #10 or better??

 

i would if it was able to get comp picks n this upcoming draft.

[Thad Bosley]

I did a couple of times, but thanks for the non-answer. It tells me that you know the answer.

Lol - you asked me to define a bandwagon, did you. Can't believe I didn't rush to fill that request. I know, why don't you take care of that query yourself by looking it up, and meanwhile, the rest of us interested in discussing solutions will further that debate.

 

More winning, less whining!

[greg775]

They don't have good people running the minors either. Rumor has it the word "sell" is coming up in the organization. Even with that the same inept people will probably remain for a while. All the people in the minors need to go.

Please sell to Mark Cuban. It's time he gets in baseball and we need a second coming of Veeck.

[Thad Bosley]

I did a couple of times, but thanks for the non-answer. It tells me that you know the answer.

And why are we even talking about bandwagon fans at this point in time, anyway! This team has amassed 212 losses in the past 2 1/4 years now. That's not appealing to any fans, bandwagon or otherwise. Where the debate should be is what we think Moe, Larry, and Curly, a.k.a. Jerry, Kenny, and Rick, should do to reverse these sad fortunes.

[LDF]

And why are we even talking about bandwagon fans at this point in time, anyway! This team has amassed 212 losses in the past 2 1/4 years now. That's not appealing to any fans, bandwagon or otherwise. Where the debate should be is what we think Moe, Larry, and Curly, a.k.a. Jerry, Kenny, and Rick, should do to reverse these sad fortunes.

why are you brow beating the subject. you ended it, and then stated back up back accusing someone of whining, and now you came back to this nonsense.

 

loosing makes everyone have a short temper.

[southsider2k5]

why are you brow beating the subject. you ended it, and then stated back up back accusing someone of whining, and now you came back to this nonsense.

 

loosing makes everyone have a short temper.

 

It is the schtick. Then there is reality.

 

Reality dictates that a team understands the nature of its fanbase and try to cater to them to some extent. It is the entire reason we have never seen a completely sell of like the Cubs can do because of their fan loyalty. It is why the team was looking for near major league ready talent in most of its deals a few years back, instead of waiting for a process that could take half of a decade or more. Even if it failed, a slow erosion of fans being better than the bandwagon all emptying at once, and stupid stuff like BLACK FLAG coming back into vogue with the more meatball portion of the population. It is why as soon as the rebuild even started to look like it was turning a corner, the team went out and bought a bunch of major leaguers at market prices in an attempt to bring back some of the bandwagon.

 

If Sox fans want to paint themselves as smart, they have to be able to take an honest look at the whole picture, and understand all of the pieces of the puzzle, not just the parts that generate calls on the Score. If you are ignoring parts of the story to paint your narrative, you aren't half as smart as you think.

 

But no, let's go ahead and resume the whining about what a horrible 35 years it has been, and people can't take the horrible pain anymore. WHY ME? WHY DOES OWNERSHIP DO THIS TO ME? I AM ENTITLED TO BETTER!

 

 

[LDF]

It is the schtick. Then there is reality.

 

Reality dictates that a team understands the nature of its fanbase and try to cater to them to some extent. It is the entire reason we have never seen a completely sell of like the Cubs can do because of their fan loyalty. It is why the team was looking for near major league ready talent in most of its deals a few years back, instead of waiting for a process that could take half of a decade or more. Even if it failed, a slow erosion of fans being better than the bandwagon all emptying at once, and stupid stuff like BLACK FLAG coming back into vogue with the more meatball portion of the population. It is why as soon as the rebuild even started to look like it was turning a corner, the team went out and bought a bunch of major leaguers at market prices in an attempt to bring back some of the bandwagon.

 

If Sox fans want to paint themselves as smart, they have to be able to take an honest look at the whole picture, and understand all of the pieces of the puzzle, not just the parts that generate calls on the Score. If you are ignoring parts of the story to paint your narrative, you aren't half as smart as you think.

 

But no, let's go ahead and resume the whining about what a horrible 35 years it has been, and people can't take the horrible pain anymore. WHY ME? WHY DOES OWNERSHIP DO THIS TO ME? I AM ENTITLED TO BETTER!

 

ahhh ok, but i am in agreement here. the sox can not afford to do a complete overhaul but not for those points you make, which are good, but the team will loose what ever fan base they have. they can not be half ass in running this org. it has been proven over and over by the lack of attendance. this is a way for the fans to make a point to the owners and the owners will listen. b/c of the market of the fans of the 2 baseball team and yes the profit margin of the over all revenue.

 

btw, i didn't say anything about whining to you.

 

another point, i never consider myself smart, more like being stubborn.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

It is the schtick. Then there is reality.

 

Reality dictates that a team understands the nature of its fanbase and try to cater to them to some extent. It is the entire reason we have never seen a completely sell of like the Cubs can do because of their fan loyalty. It is why the team was looking for near major league ready talent in most of its deals a few years back, instead of waiting for a process that could take half of a decade or more. Even if it failed, a slow erosion of fans being better than the bandwagon all emptying at once, and stupid stuff like BLACK FLAG coming back into vogue with the more meatball portion of the population. It is why as soon as the rebuild even started to look like it was turning a corner, the team went out and bought a bunch of major leaguers at market prices in an attempt to bring back some of the bandwagon.

 

If Sox fans want to paint themselves as smart, they have to be able to take an honest look at the whole picture, and understand all of the pieces of the puzzle, not just the parts that generate calls on the Score. If you are ignoring parts of the story to paint your narrative, you aren't half as smart as you think.

 

But no, let's go ahead and resume the whining about what a horrible 35 years it has been, and people can't take the horrible pain anymore. WHY ME? WHY DOES OWNERSHIP DO THIS TO ME? I AM ENTITLED TO BETTER!

 

So, your argument is that the fickle nature of the fans caused the team to rely too heavily on veterans during the last 5-7 years, and that also because of the fans, the team spent 50 million this year "in an attempt to bring back some of the bandwagon".

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically your argument in this thread boils down to "the fans are the problem".

Edited May 28, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[caulfield12]

It is the schtick. Then there is reality.

 

Reality dictates that a team understands the nature of its fanbase and try to cater to them to some extent. It is the entire reason we have never seen a completely sell of like the Cubs can do because of their fan loyalty. It is why the team was looking for near major league ready talent in most of its deals a few years back, instead of waiting for a process that could take half of a decade or more. Even if it failed, a slow erosion of fans being better than the bandwagon all emptying at once, and stupid stuff like BLACK FLAG coming back into vogue with the more meatball portion of the population. It is why as soon as the rebuild even started to look like it was turning a corner, the team went out and bought a bunch of major leaguers at market prices in an attempt to bring back some of the bandwagon.

 

If Sox fans want to paint themselves as smart, they have to be able to take an honest look at the whole picture, and understand all of the pieces of the puzzle, not just the parts that generate calls on the Score. If you are ignoring parts of the story to paint your narrative, you aren't half as smart as you think.

 

But no, let's go ahead and resume the whining about what a horrible 35 years it has been, and people can't take the horrible pain anymore. WHY ME? WHY DOES OWNERSHIP DO THIS TO ME? I AM ENTITLED TO BETTER!

 

1) There were almost the exact same number of Chicagoland and NW Indiana fans at White Sox and Cubs games as recently as 2010.

 

It's not "fan loyalty." It's better marketing, a historic park, day baseball, regional tourism and Wrigleyville that make the difference for that extra 25% the Cubs get every year. Along with that, the mystique of 100+ years without winning a World Series.

 

 

2) "It's never going to get SO bad that the team will be in danger of leaving." They're simply too profitable, and they have too many synergies with the Bulls to make it a logical move for Reinsdorf.

 

As Balta has pointed out numerous times now, this whole idea of the fanbase not being tolerant or patient enough for a rebuild...well, essentially they have been patiently waiting for the better part of a decade now. Because they committed the same mistake as the Phillies, they held onto veterans too long and couldn't rebuild on the fly.

 

They should have been smart enough to realize even teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Angels struggle with this concept, and they have HUGE margins for error financially.

 

What we've been doing essentially since the beginning of the 2012 season is REBUILDING, no matter what label you put on it.

 

Would the White Sox have suffered financially if they hadn't spent all that money in the off-season? Of course not, they'd be even more profitable (this season), and attendance would be down another 1,000-2,000 rather than being up about 2,000 per game. In the overall scheme of things, is that COST really worth this whole idea we're struggling with of rebuilding versus "reloading" or whatever KW/Hahn want to call it?

 

Spend wisely and be smarter. Don't get desperate and overpay for guys like Melky, LaRoche, Robertson, Bonifacio and Samardzija. Be patient....follow the process to its logical conclusion.

 

Even if you don't accept the Cubs/Sox comparisons on rebuilding....then follow the example of the Astros. Were they really in a much better position as a fanbase to blow things up? They went through an RSN bankrupting itself and the worst TV ratings in MLB history, but they've come out the other side and are positioned for a 3-5 year run now if everything breaks right.

 

We, on the other hand, might not be.

 

The bandwagon hasn't emptied all at once. It has taken almost a decade of damage inflicted by KW to get to this point.

 

Don't insult the fans with "patsy" managers like Ventura, either....to deflect criticism from the product you put on the field. Be honest with the fans, but then hire the very best coaching staff possible to maximize that talent. Give them the best chance or opportunity to win.

 

Then the fans will respect you and you will start to earn their trust back again.

 

[LDF]

So, your argument is that the fickle nature of the fans caused the team to rely too heavily on veterans during the last 5-7 years, and that also because of the fans, the team spent 50 million this year "in an attempt to bring back some of the bandwagon".

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically your argument in this thread boils down to "the fans are the problem".

 

excuse me if you can. i know this was meant for another. as his post to me was meant for another.

 

the fickle nature of the sox is, they thought they could do the same thing twice and be successful. they went out and got the finishing touches for the 2005 ws team. no foresight and the problem was, they, the sox got extremely lucky in 2005. everything went right.

 

the sox fans are the problem and i am proud to be one of them. i will not pay for crap, unlike the northside who create an aura of making excuses.

 

the sox fans are smarter and they don't forgive. that is the fine line the sox owners have to walk.

 

other than that, i agree with you.

[LDF]

1) There were almost the exact same number of Chicagoland and NW Indiana fans at White Sox and Cubs games as recently as 2010.

 

It's not "fan loyalty." It's better marketing, a historic park, day baseball, regional tourism and Wrigleyville that make the difference for that extra 25% the Cubs get every year. Along with that, the mystique of 100+ years without winning a World Series.

 

 

2) "It's never going to get SO bad that the team will be in danger of leaving." They're simply too profitable, and they have too many synergies with the Bulls to make it a logical move for Reinsdorf.

 

As Balta has pointed out numerous times now, this whole idea of the fanbase not being tolerant or patient enough for a rebuild...well, essentially they have been patiently waiting for the better part of a decade now. Because they committed the same mistake as the Phillies, they held onto veterans too long and couldn't rebuild on the fly.

 

They should have been smart enough to realize even teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Angels struggle with this concept, and they have HUGE margins for error financially.

 

What we've been doing essentially since the beginning of the 2012 season is REBUILDING, no matter what label you put on it.

 

Would the White Sox have suffered financially if they hadn't spent all that money in the off-season? Of course not, they'd be even more profitable (this season), and attendance would be down another 1,000-2,000 rather than being up about 2,000 per game. In the overall scheme of things, is that COST really worth this whole idea we're struggling with of rebuilding versus "reloading" or whatever KW/Hahn want to call it?

 

Spend wisely and be smarter. Don't get desperate and overpay for guys like Melky, LaRoche, Robertson, Bonifacio and Samardzija. Be patient....follow the process to its logical conclusion.

 

Even if you don't accept the Cubs/Sox comparisons on rebuilding....then follow the example of the Astros. Were they really in a much better position as a fanbase to blow things up? They went through an RSN bankrupting itself and the worst TV ratings in MLB history, but they've come out the other side and are positioned for a 3-5 year run now if everything breaks right.

 

We, on the other hand, might not be.

 

The bandwagon hasn't emptied all at once. It has taken almost a decade of damage inflicted by KW to get to this point.

 

Don't insult the fans with "patsy" managers like Ventura, either....to deflect criticism from the product you put on the field. Be honest with the fans, but then hire the very best coaching staff possible to maximize that talent. Give them the best chance or opportunity to win.

 

Then the fans will respect you and you will start to earn their trust back again.

 

wow, that is nice. i would like to add but i won't...... this can stand nicely by itself.

[Hatchetman]

White Sox Motto: The customer is always wrong.

[LDF]

White Sox Motto: The customer is always wrong.

 

i thought it was more along the lines of

 

do very little to make it show that management does care and the fans will buy it.

[chitownsportsfan]

White Sox Motto: The customer is always wrong.

 

SouthSider2k has to be on the payroll. I have no idea how a fan comes to the conclusion that it's the fans to blame!

[caulfield12]

And, for further evidence, don't do what the Marlins just did.

 

They insulted all of baseball by bringing in someone with zero managerial experience.

 

The players won't respect that, and will be laughed at by their opponents.

 

Small surprise they're 2-8 since Jennings was hired and buried for the rest of the season. So Loria will soon be on his 4th manager on the payroll simultaneously.

 

At least Ausmus and Matheny had credibility (especially as hard-nosed catchers) for their tons of playing experience.

Edited May 28, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

1) There were almost the exact same number of Chicagoland and NW Indiana fans at White Sox and Cubs games as recently as 2010.

 

It's not "fan loyalty." It's better marketing, a historic park, day baseball, regional tourism and Wrigleyville that make the difference for that extra 25% the Cubs get every year. Along with that, the mystique of 100+ years without winning a World Series.

 

 

2) "It's never going to get SO bad that the team will be in danger of leaving." They're simply too profitable, and they have too many synergies with the Bulls to make it a logical move for Reinsdorf.

 

As Balta has pointed out numerous times now, this whole idea of the fanbase not being tolerant or patient enough for a rebuild...well, essentially they have been patiently waiting for the better part of a decade now. Because they committed the same mistake as the Phillies, they held onto veterans too long and couldn't rebuild on the fly.

 

They should have been smart enough to realize even teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Angels struggle with this concept, and they have HUGE margins for error financially.

 

What we've been doing essentially since the beginning of the 2012 season is REBUILDING, no matter what label you put on it.

 

Would the White Sox have suffered financially if they hadn't spent all that money in the off-season? Of course not, they'd be even more profitable (this season), and attendance would be down another 1,000-2,000 rather than being up about 2,000 per game. In the overall scheme of things, is that COST really worth this whole idea we're struggling with of rebuilding versus "reloading" or whatever KW/Hahn want to call it?

 

Spend wisely and be smarter. Don't get desperate and overpay for guys like Melky, LaRoche, Robertson, Bonifacio and Samardzija. Be patient....follow the process to its logical conclusion.

 

Even if you don't accept the Cubs/Sox comparisons on rebuilding....then follow the example of the Astros. Were they really in a much better position as a fanbase to blow things up? They went through an RSN bankrupting itself and the worst TV ratings in MLB history, but they've come out the other side and are positioned for a 3-5 year run now if everything breaks right.

 

We, on the other hand, might not be.

 

The bandwagon hasn't emptied all at once. It has taken almost a decade of damage inflicted by KW to get to this point.

 

Don't insult the fans with "patsy" managers like Ventura, either....to deflect criticism from the product you put on the field. Be honest with the fans, but then hire the very best coaching staff possible to maximize that talent. Give them the best chance or opportunity to win.

 

Then the fans will respect you and you will start to earn their trust back again.

Again why did you question the attendance when the Sox came back from winning 5 in a row? I am guessing you didn't have anything negative to fill your agenda on this board, so you used attendance and are now talkimg out of both sides of your mouth. As to your figures from 2010, you again are not takimg imto account there is onky a finite number of tickets available. If they are tsken by tourists from Iowa, people in town cannot buy them. You also talk day baseball as a draw. During the week, that couldn't be more inaccurate or all teams would play all of their games during the day.

[caulfield12]

Again why did you question the attendance when the Sox came back from winning 5 in a row? I am guessing you didn't have anything negative to fill your agenda on this board, so you used attendance and are now talkimg out of both sides of your mouth. As to your figures from 2010, you again are not takimg imto account there is onky a finite number of tickets available. If they are tsken by tourists from Iowa, people in town cannot buy them. You also talk day baseball as a draw. During the week, that couldn't be more inaccurate or all teams would play all of their games during the day.

 

I merely wrote that the White Sox had the 9th highest increase in attendance per game so far...an increase of lmost 2,000 fans per game...that the fans responded to the off-season moves. The Twins, meanwhile, have LESS fans per game (this year, compared to 2014) despite being in first place as June nears.

 

How is that being negative? Just pointing out facts that are indisputable.

 

The 2010 White Sox and Cubs weren't in danger of setting any attendance records. Cubs' fans weren't consistently precluded from attending games...and conjecture about how many more tickets they MIGHT have sold is like speculating about the White Sox drawing 3 million fans if they had the best stadium in baseball with the outfield backdrop as the downtown or if they had been relocated to the suburbs.

 

There were plenty of late May through early September home games that year that weren't sold out.

 

As far as "day baseball" goes, all you had to do was follow the Cubs in the 80's or 90's with WGN/Stone & Caray announcing to get the answer to why that worked so well. Booze/Budweiser, Babes, Buppies/Yuppies and Bats (Sosa/Grace/Sandberg). Simple formula. If all those other cities had "historical" Wrigley Field or Fenway Park, then it just MIGHT work, but, once again...MARKETING.

[Dick Allen]

I merely wrote that the White Sox had the 9th highest increase in attendance per game so far...an increase of lmost 2,000 fans per game...that the fans responded to the off-season moves. The Twins, meanwhile, have LESS fans per game (this year, compared to 2014) despite being in first place as June nears.

 

How is that being negative? Just pointing out facts that are indisputable.

 

The 2010 White Sox and Cubs weren't in danger of setting any attendance records. Cubs' fans weren't consistently precluded from attending games...and conjecture about how many more tickets they MIGHT have sold is like speculating about the White Sox drawing 3 million fans if they had the best stadium in baseball with the outfield backdrop as the downtown or if they had been relocated to the suburbs.

 

There were plenty of late May through early September home games that year that weren't sold out.

 

As far as "day baseball" goes, all you had to do was follow the Cubs in the 80's or 90's with WGN/Stone & Caray announcing to get the answer to why that worked so well. Booze/Budweiser, Babes, Buppies/Yuppies and Bats (Sosa/Grace/Sandberg). Simple formula. If all those other cities had "historical" Wrigley Field or Fenway Park, then it just MIGHT work, but, once again...MARKETING.

No. The one where they only drew 17k for Sale vs. Kluber after winning 5 in a row.