Irreconcilable Differences

[Dick Allen]

The real trick is that the most of the teams who do things like that move themselves higher up because they're winning a lot. The Rangers won several years in a row and, despite the lack of a world series, now have a much higher payroll than us. Before they hit those runs of success they had lower payrolls than us. The Giants had a lower payroll than us for much of the late 2000s and didn't pass us by until 2012.

 

Those teams turned success into a model that has allowed them several years of being competitive and even lets them survive a down year or two because they climb their way back in.

Since the "reign of terror" started when JR bought the team in 1981, the Rangers have won 5 division titles and 2686 games. The White Sox have won 5 division titles and 2770 games and a WS. It has been better to be a White Sox fan than Rangers fan.

[LDF]

My point is that there are some posters on here who seem to blame the fans for not attending enough games to provide enough money for this team to be successful. This team absolutely has enough resources to be successful, moribund fan base or not. The guys in charge have just failed at scouting and/or developing their players, which has lead to our one playoff appearance since 2005.

 

I liked the off season, fwiw.

 

there is only 1 person or 1 group that blame the fans and their lack of attendance, that was the sox org in the beginning of the off season, before Hahn went out and spent more money on players. if i remember correctly, it was when the sox had invested something like 95+ mil.

[LDF]

Since the "reign of terror" started when JR bought the team in 1981, the Rangers have won 5 division titles and 2686 games. The White Sox have won 5 division titles and 2770 games and a WS. It has been better to be a White Sox fan than Rangers fan.

 

how many games and series has Miami won since its inception??

 

the total part is a dysfunctional fo with some screwed ideas on cronyism, that ruined many a chances for a run of the world series.

[Balta1701]

Since the "reign of terror" started when JR bought the team in 1981, the Rangers have won 5 division titles and 2686 games. The White Sox have won 5 division titles and 2770 games and a WS. It has been better to be a White Sox fan than Rangers fan.

You are the one who brought up payrolls and said "oh we need $180 million in payroll to be competitive".

 

The White Sox won a world series and that juiced their payroll into the top 11 in MLB for about 7 years afterwards. The problem continues to be they had a pretty awful record during those years, with only 1 playoff appearance. That payroll boost evaporated in the last couple years and they still have failed to set themselves up as a winning franchise. Neither of these had to happen. That requires a long time of systemic failure.

 

If the Rangers keep struggling the next couple years, you'll see something very similar happen - their payroll boost will erode as they continue to lose.

 

I continue to think that this losing is a bad thing.

[Dick Allen]

You are the one who brought up payrolls and said "oh we need $180 million in payroll to be competitive".

 

The White Sox won a world series and that juiced their payroll into the top 11 in MLB for about 7 years afterwards. The problem continues to be they had a pretty awful record during those years, with only 1 playoff appearance. That payroll boost evaporated in the last couple years and they still have failed to set themselves up as a winning franchise. Neither of these had to happen. That requires a long time of systemic failure.

 

If the Rangers keep struggling the next couple years, you'll see something very similar happen - their payroll boost will erode as they continue to lose.

 

I continue to think that this losing is a bad thing.

No I never wrote that. The argument here is winning here and there isn't good enough, you need to win 3 or 4 years out of 5. In order to do that, as you stated, the payroll is going to jump.

[LDF]

 

but also the farm should start producing as hope.

 

i am a firm believer in getting the right person both on the field and in the FO, while building the farm.

[Balta1701]

No I never wrote that. The argument here is winning here and there isn't good enough, you need to win 3 or 4 years out of 5. In order to do that, as you stated, the payroll is going to jump.

Hell, like I keep asking, let's just try a playoff run and see what happens? This fanbase has endured a helluva lot of losing over the past 5 years.

[LDF]

if the sox team, in any yr, make the playoff, the sox fans who has been quietly suffering, will come out. BOOK IT.

[TaylorStSox]

I wonder how many Tigers fans there are in Chicago. I literally know more people that grew up in Michigan than Chicago.

[Dick Allen]

if the sox team, in any yr, make the playoff, the sox fans who has been quietly suffering, will come out. BOOK IT.

I wouldn't book it at all. The won the division in 2008 and attendance was lower than the 90 loss team in 2007. They were in first place most of 2012 and attendance was lower than the 2011 disappointment. Maybe winning the WS is a curse. Being in first place, making the playoffs doesn't have the same effect it used to create.

[Balta1701]

I wouldn't book it at all. The won the division in 2008 and attendance was lower than the 90 loss team in 2007. They were in first place most of 2012 and attendance was lower than the 2011 disappointment. Maybe winning the WS is a curse. Being in first place, making the playoffs doesn't have the same effect it used to create.

1. I propose an experiment. Let's actually try and find out?

 

2. If you're right and this franchise is that moribund and it can't fill the stadium beyond 1/2 capacity any more even if they win games, then it needs to relocate when the stadium agreement finishes.

[chw42]

This team simply sucks to watch. Nothing's more boring than offense that labors to score 3 runs. It doesn't help that our defense screws our pitching over more often than not.

 

I spent $130 on MLB.tv and I can't bring myself to actually watch a whole game most of the time. It's not enjoyable. It doesn't help that I'll tune in 30 minutes after the start of the game and I see the Sox are already down by 5. I know that there's almost no chance they'll come back and win because the offense is putrid.

[Thad Bosley]

My word! Would you look at those Kansas City Royals! Averaging nearly 32K this year after that splendid run they had through the postseason last year. Their average attendance last year was only 24K, reflective, of course, of the years and years of losing prior to last season. But lo and behold, it turns out that their fan base enjoyed all of the excitement that a solid postseason brings, and have signed up this season in hopes for more. Sounds like another fan base we know from 2006, doesn't it? And to add to the good news for fans of the Royals, their team seems well poised to do the unthinkable - make it to the playoffs in consecutive seasons! Now how about that! And if they do so, and give their fans another thrill, they will continue to build upon and expand their fan base. Yep, yep, yep - that's how it works. That's what a little winning will do for you!

[Dick Allen]

1. I propose an experiment. Let's actually try and find out?

 

2. If you're right and this franchise is that moribund and it can't fill the stadium beyond 1/2 capacity any more even if they win games, then it needs to relocate when the stadium agreement finishes.

On Sept. 25th 2012 the White Sox entered their final home stand 1 game in front in the AL Central

 

They drew 20,206. The next night 13,797 then 20,166 18,633 25,264 26,559 and 26,831. I think you have some sort of answer.

[Soxfest]

I am a diehard Sox fan, but I do not have blind loyalty to all things JR. Fans have right to support team or not in any way they choose.

[fathom]

This team simply sucks to watch. Nothing's more boring than offense that labors to score 3 runs. It doesn't help that our defense screws our pitching over more often than not.

 

This is the worst 3 year stretch for the Sox since the last 80s (87-89). The fan base is going to continue to decrease until the organization turns it around. This is the 2nd time in 5 years that the organization hyped up their offseason acquisitions, only to see them fail almost immediately.

[LDF]

I wouldn't book it at all. The won the division in 2008 and attendance was lower than the 90 loss team in 2007. They were in first place most of 2012 and attendance was lower than the 2011 disappointment. Maybe winning the WS is a curse. Being in first place, making the playoffs doesn't have the same effect it used to create.

 

ok that is kool, i will accept your opinion.

 

now answer me these questions, how many showed up for the playoff and the world series??

 

the yr after, what was the attendance like??

 

this team, this yr, had the momentum going for them, then they lost it. for whatever reason is not revellent, but if they would have strung out a couple of winning streak, it would have been a different story.

[southsider2k5]

My word! Would you look at those Kansas City Royals! Averaging nearly 32K this year after that splendid run they had through the postseason last year. Their average attendance last year was only 24K, reflective, of course, of the years and years of losing prior to last season. But lo and behold, it turns out that their fan base enjoyed all of the excitement that a solid postseason brings, and have signed up this season in hopes for more. Sounds like another fan base we know from 2006, doesn't it? And to add to the good news for fans of the Royals, their team seems well poised to do the unthinkable - make it to the playoffs in consecutive seasons! Now how about that! And if they do so, and give their fans another thrill, they will continue to build upon and expand their fan base. Yep, yep, yep - that's how it works. That's what a little winning will do for you!

 

All on the backs of one playoff run in 30 years, without a World Series Championship to show for it, which according to the repeated standards of years and years of winning in a row, falls woefully short.

[LDF]

I am a diehard Sox fan, but I do not have blind loyalty to all things JR. Fans have right to support team or not in any way they choose.

 

good counter.

 

i too am a die hard and with that, i think i am among those who has been harsh on the owners and the FO. i even hate to say this, but i was again proven right. oh i wish i was wrong.

 

but the point is, being a fan doesn't mean one has to have blind faith, does it??

[Balta1701]

On Sept. 25th 2012 the White Sox entered their final home stand 1 game in front in the AL Central

 

They drew 20,206. The next night 13,797 then 20,166 18,633 25,264 26,559 and 26,831. I think you have some sort of answer.

Honestly, that was the month where I had completely turned off the White Sox because I could see them breaking down and didn't want to watch it happen.

 

But if you think the team needs to move, why won't you just come out and say it?

[Thad Bosley]

All on the backs of one playoff run in 30 years, without a World Series Championship to show for it, which according to the repeated standards of years and years of winning in a row, falls woefully short.

Falls woefully short of what? What are you talking about here? The point I made is Kansas City had a very exciting postseason last year and their fan base responded, hence the nice bump in attendance this year. They are poised to build upon that success and add to and solidify their fan base by making it to the playoffs again this year. They might not make it, and they may slip backwards like we did since we did not sustain our success after the WS run. But if they do make it and have another exciting run at things this fall, it will only help continue their success at the gate. And who knows? Maybe they are about to go on a nice three or four year run of sustained success like every other team in the AL Central team has done at one time or another since the advent of the division. Every other team, that is, except the White Sox.

 

I know, I know - confounded bandwagon fans! They're to blame for all of this!!

[kitekrazy]

My word! Would you look at those Kansas City Royals! Averaging nearly 32K this year after that splendid run they had through the postseason last year. Their average attendance last year was only 24K, reflective, of course, of the years and years of losing prior to last season. But lo and behold, it turns out that their fan base enjoyed all of the excitement that a solid postseason brings, and have signed up this season in hopes for more. Sounds like another fan base we know from 2006, doesn't it? And to add to the good news for fans of the Royals, their team seems well poised to do the unthinkable - make it to the playoffs in consecutive seasons! Now how about that! And if they do so, and give their fans another thrill, they will continue to build upon and expand their fan base. Yep, yep, yep - that's how it works. That's what a little winning will do for you!

 

As for the Sox they won a World Series and it raises the bar for expectations.

[southsider2k5]

Falls woefully short of what? What are you talking about here? The point I made is Kansas City had a very exciting postseason last year and their fan base responded, hence the nice bump in attendance this year. They are poised to build upon that success and add to and solidify their fan base by making it to the playoffs again this year. They might not make it, and they may slip backwards like we did since we did not sustain our success after the WS run. But if they do make it and have another exciting run at things this fall, it will only help continue their success at the gate. And who knows? Maybe they are about to go on a nice three or four year run of sustained success like every other team in the AL Central team has done at one time or another since the advent of the division. Every other team, that is, except the White Sox.

 

I know, I know - confounded bandwagon fans! They're to blame for all of this!!

 

You actually are proving my point again. Kansas City needed one playoff appearance in 30 years to get fans to show back up. The White Sox got 2 in 4 years and their attendance dropped over the last two years, and the next season after again.

 

Nothing about what the Royals have done could be called "a nice three or four year run of sustained success".

[LDF]

 

lets keep all things in perceptive. the sox will never overcome the northside team. they have too much appeal, too much tradition and their location is ideal.

 

the sox, screwed up when they were building the new park. they screwed up on hiring cronies, mismanagement and little to no foresight in over taking the city after the WS. oh and the reason for that and many more is the dysfunctional way of operating the org.

 

every bodies has opinions, just remember it is my opinion that matters most.

[southsider2k5]

The Sox didn't do much in 2011 other than Dunn so I am not sure what this other big offseason is but "selling offseasons" does seem have to caught some momentum amongst Sox fan gripes. I still don't know the offseason that has been the problem this year. It's been 2B, 3B, C, SP4 and SP5 along with a lot of established players unexpectedly underperforming.

 

Robertson has been absolutely awesome. Grade: A

Samardzija, while you wouldn't know it from reading this board, has been just a tad below expectations and is still on pace for a 3-4 WAR season. Grade: B

Melky has been terrible. That signing doesn't look great at the moment but were only

LaRoche is a notoriously slow starter and has struggled to the tune of about a league average bat. Not good enough for a DH, but I think he'll turn it around. Grade: C-

Duke has been okay. Grade: B-

Jennings has been pretty good and could hold a bullpen spot for the next years to come. Especially if they get him retiring lefties at a rate typical for lefties. Grade: B+

 

The problems:

1.) Flowers, Grade: F

2.) Alexei, Grade: F

3.) 2B, Grade C-

4.) 3B, Grade: C-

5.) Eaton, Grade: F

6.) Cabrera, Grade: F

7.) Danks, Grade: D

8.) Noesi, Grade: F

 

My point with my silly grades is that it's not the offseason that's holding this team back.

 

I'd argue that our biggest problems are the starting pitching that we needed most to be good (Sale, Samardjiza, and Quintana) has been noticeably worse than last year. Next has been that we have exactly one guy on offense who is either at, or better than, his numbers last year. Guys like Abreu, Alexei, LaRoche, and Eaton are WAY under what they did last year.