In-season managerial changes a risk, BUT

[chitownsportsfan]

How do you guys have so much insight into how well the White Sox internal chain of command works? Are you all ex-employees or something?

 

 

here's a very candid look into how a JR FO works, from the statement on Thibs:

 

“The Chicago Bulls have a history of achieving great success on and off the court. These accomplishments have been possible because of an organizational culture where input from all parts of the organization has been welcomed and valued, there has been a willingness to participate in a free flow of information, and there have been clear and consistent goals. While the head of each department of the organization must be free to make final decisions regarding his department, there must be free and open interdepartmental discussion and consideration of everyone's ideas and opinions. These internal discussions must not be considered an invasion of turf, and must remain private. Teams that consistently perform at the highest levels are able to come together and be unified across the organization-staff, players, coaches, management and ownership. When everyone is on the same page, trust develops and teams can grow and succeed together.

 

 

It's a joke, you can't run franchises like this. GarPax is a laughingstock around the NBA despite many good draft picks, because of how obviously strained the relationship between Gar and Paxson is. Powerful men don't like to form consensus with "interdepartmental input".

 

This isn't Google or Facebook, it's a sports franchise. One guy should be making the final call, yes he can take input from those below him but it's a tyranny of one, not a "consensus of information" or whatever mumble jumble JR uses.

Edited May 29, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[Dick Allen]

How do you guys have so much insight into how well the White Sox internal chain of command works? Are you all ex-employees or something?

The White Sox are a limited partnership. JR is the only general partner. He is large and in charge. I'm sure he listens to his partners, but ultimately his decision is what happens.

[southsider2k5]

here's a very candid look into how a JR FO works, from the statement on Thibs:

 

 

 

 

It's a joke, you can't run franchises like this. GarPax is a laughingstock around the NBA despite many good draft picks, because of how obviously strained the relationship between Gar and Paxson is. Powerful men don't like to form consensus with "interdepartmental input".

 

This isn't Google or Facebook, it's a sports franchise. One guy should be making the final call, yes he can take input from those below him but it's a tyranny of one, not a "consensus of information" or whatever mumble jumble JR uses.

 

Dude, you even bolded this sentence

 

While the head of each department of the organization must be free to make final decisions regarding his department

[SCCWS]

And If a team that should be "very well above .500" is systematically playing worse, with very few injuries as an excuse, then it becomes a very legitimate question "what is wrong with this team that could cause so many different players to systematically be below where they normally are?"

 

What could effect an entire roster and make an entire roster play worse?

 

There's your choice. Either this roster was never good enough to compete and the person who traded for a major player on a 1 year contract and spent $50 million while leaving huge holes is a fool, or this roster is good enough to compete and the people who manage the roster and helped this roster prepare for the season are utterly failing at their jobs.

 

Who said this team should be " very well above .500". Many posters in the prediction thread saw this team as a .500 team and so did Vegas.

Edited May 29, 2015 by SCCWS

[southsider2k5]

Who said this team should be " very well above .500". Many posters in the prediction thread saw this team as a .500 team and so did Vegas.

 

In the pre-season poll most felt that we would be in the middle to high 80's in wins, and compete for the 2nd wild card.

[chitownsportsfan]

That is a Orwellian double speak SouthSider2k. Thibs was the head of his department including on how minutes were distributed. Then he wasn't, once GarPax got pissed and hired Jen.

 

So, you're the boss, until you're not. There's no chain of command, well there is, but it's a "circle" at the top with JR, Hahn and KW.

 

He runs the Bulls the same way. He needs to stop meddling.

[Balta1701]

Who said this team should be " very well above .500". Many posters in the prediction thread saw this team as a .500 team and so did Vegas.

The post I quoted said "if this list of players were performing as they should then this team would be well above .500".

[southsider2k5]

That is a Orwellian double speak SouthSider2k. Thibs was the head of his department including on how minutes were distributed. Then he wasn't, once GarPax got pissed and hired Jen.

 

So, you're the boss, until you're not. There's no chain of command, well there is, but it's a "circle" at the top with JR, Hahn and KW.

 

He runs the Bulls the same way. He needs to stop meddling.

 

What you are saying makes no sense. One time you are saying that there is no chain of command. But when the general manager goes to the coach, who works for him, and tells him to do something, he is meddling?

 

Same with the White Sox. Rick Hahn does the leg work. Final approval for moves goes through the chain of command into Kenny and then finally, and if necessary, Jerry. Certain guys are obviously responsible for certain things. Do you honestly think that Jerry or Kenny are the ones making out line ups? But, when there is a bigger problem with the performance, such as with the Bulls and Thibs playing guys too many minutes, then the chain of command kicks in and tells him to knock if off.

 

I am not sure where you have worked in the past that you have full autonomy over everything, but that is pretty much the textbook definition of chain of command.

[bmags]

What you are saying makes no sense. One time you are saying that there is no chain of command. But when the general manager goes to the coach, who works for him, and tells him to do something, he is meddling?

 

Same with the White Sox. Rick Hahn does the leg work. Final approval for moves goes through the chain of command into Kenny and then finally, and if necessary, Jerry. Certain guys are obviously responsible for certain things. Do you honestly think that Jerry or Kenny are the ones making out line ups? But, when there is a bigger problem with the performance, such as with the Bulls and Thibs playing guys too many minutes, then the chain of command kicks in and tells him to knock if off chokes them.

 

I am not sure where you have worked in the past that you have full autonomy over everything, but that is pretty much the textbook definition of chain of command.

 

[Eminor3rd]

here's a very candid look into how a JR FO works, from the statement on Thibs:

 

 

 

 

It's a joke, you can't run franchises like this. GarPax is a laughingstock around the NBA despite many good draft picks, because of how obviously strained the relationship between Gar and Paxson is. Powerful men don't like to form consensus with "interdepartmental input".

 

This isn't Google or Facebook, it's a sports franchise. One guy should be making the final call, yes he can take input from those below him but it's a tyranny of one, not a "consensus of information" or whatever mumble jumble JR uses.

 

That sounds like a model for how all big organizations should run. If you want to see what happens when the top dog in the organization steamrolls the managers he's hired instead of delegating and letting them handle their areas of expertise, look at the Marlins.

 

How many times have you heard the following cliche out of the mouth of some billionaire: "I surround myself with smart people and let them work."

[Eminor3rd]

That is a Orwellian double speak SouthSider2k. Thibs was the head of his department including on how minutes were distributed. Then he wasn't, once GarPax got pissed and hired Jen.

 

So, you're the boss, until you're not. There's no chain of command, well there is, but it's a "circle" at the top with JR, Hahn and KW.

 

He runs the Bulls the same way. He needs to stop meddling.

 

That sounds like the exact opposite of the passage you quoted about the Bulls.

[Dick Allen]

What you are saying makes no sense. One time you are saying that there is no chain of command. But when the general manager goes to the coach, who works for him, and tells him to do something, he is meddling?

 

Same with the White Sox. Rick Hahn does the leg work. Final approval for moves goes through the chain of command into Kenny and then finally, and if necessary, Jerry. Certain guys are obviously responsible for certain things. Do you honestly think that Jerry or Kenny are the ones making out line ups? But, when there is a bigger problem with the performance, such as with the Bulls and Thibs playing guys too many minutes, then the chain of command kicks in and tells him to knock if off.

 

I am not sure where you have worked in the past that you have full autonomy over everything, but that is pretty much the textbook definition of chain of command.

But coaching and GMing are two different things. We all understand either having a boss or being a boss, but must of us with a boss would get very frustrated if that boss got too involved in doing a job you are quite good at. I would say Thibs winning coach of the year would qualifying him as at least having some sort of idea how to coach an NBA team. When the boss becomes too intrusive and/or doesn't allow the employee any of their own thoughts or ways, in any line of work, it probably is going to end soon. Just because someone is a boss doesn't mean for optimal performance, they don't have boundaries as well. We don't know the actual interaction between Thibs and GarPax. Face it Pax going after VDN is grounds for dismissal. Just ask Kendall Gill. The Bulls have had the regular press release, JR's press release, a press conference, and are leaking things like the players don't like Thibs. They are doing precisely what they said cannot be done if an organization is to be successful.

[southsider2k5]

But coaching and GMing are two different things. We all understand either having a boss or being a boss, but must of us with a boss would get very frustrated if that boss got too involved in doing a job you are quite good at. I would say Thibs winning coach of the year would qualifying him as at least having some sort of idea how to coach an NBA team. When the boss becomes too intrusive and/or doesn't allow the employee any of their own thoughts or ways, in any line of work, it probably is going to end soon. Just because someone is a boss doesn't mean for optimal performance, they don't have boundaries as well. We don't know the actual interaction between Thibs and GarPax. Face it Pax going after VDN is grounds for dismissal. Just ask Kendall Gill. The Bulls have had the regular press release, JR's press release, a press conference, and are leaking things like the players don't like Thibs. They are doing precisely what they said cannot be done if an organization is to be successful.

 

They could fire the entire Bulls front office tomorrow, and it wouldn't bother me a bit.

 

But at the end of the day, the GM is the Coaches/Managers boss. The VP of baseball/basketball operations is the GM's boss. Jerry is all of their boss. That is the chain of command. The other part is that just because your boss is an idiot, doesn't mean you just can't listen to him. Again, you'll be looking for work.

[Dick Allen]

They could fire the entire Bulls front office tomorrow, and it wouldn't bother me a bit.

 

But at the end of the day, the GM is the Coaches/Managers boss. The VP of baseball/basketball operations is the GM's boss. Jerry is all of their boss. That is the chain of command. The other part is that just because your boss is an idiot, doesn't mean you just can't listen to him. Again, you'll be looking for work.

I agree. I'm just saying but I doubt there isn't anyone who hasn't had a few WTF moments with their boss over the course of their work lives.

[LDF]

The layers of management the Sox have in making decisons is NOT working and has not for years.

 

oh i hate to disagree with you here. the only chain of command or in this case management in the sox org is this.

 

1 owner

2. owners lap dog, > Kw

3. kw telling what to do in a memo.

4. cronies.

[Jerksticks]

Some of you guys are crazy. The players are sucking horribly right now. I'm excited to see what happens as the weather warms up and Melky gets going.

[Texsox]

The question isn't that at all. The question is "who has final say"?

 

I guarantee you that it's not Jed Hoyer. Hoyer works the phones I'm sure and does other duties but the executive at the top is Epstein. It's a traditional org chart.

 

The Sox have more of a triangle it seems at the top with JR, Hahn and KW all making inputs. That isn't going to work.

 

You are talking in part one about who makes the decision. In part two you are saying who has input input. Do you think that Hoyer doesn't have input? Do you think that JR, Hahn, and KW split the decision making, have a vote,

[LDF]

Some of you guys are crazy. The players are sucking horribly right now. I'm excited to see what happens as the weather warms up and Melky gets going.

 

oh i am with you, this is trying to figure out the sox org FO.

[Texsox]

What you are saying makes no sense. One time you are saying that there is no chain of command. But when the general manager goes to the coach, who works for him, and tells him to do something, he is meddling?

 

Same with the White Sox. Rick Hahn does the leg work. Final approval for moves goes through the chain of command into Kenny and then finally, and if necessary, Jerry. Certain guys are obviously responsible for certain things. Do you honestly think that Jerry or Kenny are the ones making out line ups? But, when there is a bigger problem with the performance, such as with the Bulls and Thibs playing guys too many minutes, then the chain of command kicks in and tells him to knock if off.

 

I am not sure where you have worked in the past that you have full autonomy over everything, but that is pretty much the textbook definition of chain of command.

 

Agreed. I would add one thing you can delegate authority but not responsibility.

[Texsox]

And we do realize that this is all speculation.

[Jerksticks]

But don't you guys get it that KW & RH, brace for it, WANT Jerry in on most of it? They all like each other and like working together and have put damn good on-paper teams on the field almost every year since 2005. Players have sucked for the most part, it stinks. Peavy & Dunn crippled the franchise's chances of winning. Arguably good aggressive moves that didn't pan out. TCQ breaking his hand ruined us for years thinking he would regain his form as our beast. Rios...mercy. I dislike that some of you want to blame people. Who are you to judge? It's just a silly game.

[southsider2k5]

But don't you guys get it that KW & RH, brace for it, WANT Jerry in on most of it? They all like each other and like working together and have put damn good on-paper teams on the field almost every year since 2005. Players have sucked for the most part, it stinks. Peavy & Dunn crippled the franchise's chances of winning. Arguably good aggressive moves that didn't pan out. TCQ breaking his hand ruined us for years thinking he would regain his form as our beast. Rios...mercy. I dislike that some of you want to blame people. Who are you to judge? It's just a silly game.

 

I believe this is 100% true. It is also a normal set up for most places. When that breaks down, you get a mess.

[LDF]

But don't you guys get it that KW & RH, brace for it, WANT Jerry in on most of it? They all like each other and like working together and have put damn good on-paper teams on the field almost every year since 2005. Players have sucked for the most part, it stinks. Peavy & Dunn crippled the franchise's chances of winning. Arguably good aggressive moves that didn't pan out. TCQ breaking his hand ruined us for years thinking he would regain his form as our beast. Rios...mercy. I dislike that some of you want to blame people. Who are you to judge? It's just a silly game.

 

do not forget the drafting and great farm system the sox have

[Texsox]

I believe this is 100% true. It is also a normal set up for most places. When that breaks down, you get a mess.

 

Exactly. It seems that some people want an autocratic last century management philosophy. That hasn't been the best practice for decades.

[Jerksticks]

Yea. I'm super impressed with the setup of our FO. While I don't know how all the other teams work, I get the impression that most FO's are chaotic and impersonal. I like that our team is like a family; blood you can trust. KW & RH are Jerry's sons. So are RV, PK & still even still OG- OG is like the relative in rehab that you still love and know will come back one day to the table to eat.