Cohesiveness between development/coaching and scouting

[caulfield12]

side....

 

 

The Fearful Player: This player won't trust the development process. He's a poor self-evaluator. He blames his coaches and teammates for his failure. He's often insecure about where he was taken in the draft. He can often be uncomfortable with baseball's diverse cultures, and he's always making excuses. He's consumed with self and doesn't know how to be a good teammate. Because of the importance of being able to manage failure (in baseball), his spirit will eventually be crushed. Even the player who Jim Beauchamp (Atlanta Braves' scout) would call "chosen" ends up being miserable later in his career and throughout his life. It's not about the team. There are plenty of examples of talented, producing major league players who are in the "fearful" stage. They put up great numbers, but their teammates and coaches don't respect them because because it's all about self. It's difficult for teams to win championships with players who possess these traits because they usually bring the team down.

 

The Overcomer:

 

The Fearless Player: This player is a great teammate. He intuitively does whatever needs to be done to help the team win. He never lets a situation, a circumstance, or an event drive a wedge between him and what he loves to do. He especially doesn't let the circumstance or situation affect the team. He understands that everyone's success is tied together. He's accountable; he doesn't make excuses. He always answers the media's tough questions. He is completely focused on what he has to do to prepare and give his best for the team each day. The bottom line: he always plays for something bigger than himself.

 

from "More than a Season" by Dayton Moore

 

 

 

Reading this book, it made me realize that it's not really anything wrong with Buddy Bell specifically. It's simply the fact that there's a huge disconnect between the talent level of the players we've been drafting and their make-up or moxie. Ken Harrelson kind of had it right, that will to win...the desire to outwork your opponent, to perfect your craft, to never be satisfied and constantly be looking for ways to improve. We've brought in so many talented athletes, but often they didn't have the mental/psychological acuity to adjust and deal with failure. Or they'd never experienced failure before becoming professional baseball players, so we didn't have a system in place to help them overcome struggles until it was too late and permanent "confidence" damage had been done (some critics would say inflicted).

 

It's easy in hindsight to say it was simply poor scouting with guys like Joe Borchard, Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Gordon Beckham, Dayan Viciedo, Jared Mitchell, Trayce Thompson, Keenyn Walker....because so few position players have gone on to success with other organizations after leaving the White Sox. Even someone like Carlos Quentin, who experienced near MVP level results but then couldn't overcome the mental side of the game and eventually succumbed to physical problems as well.

 

I would suggest that it's not quite that simple...since we don't know how any of those guys might have turned out differently had they started their careers in other organizations, beginning with rookie ball or extended spring training.

 

I still believe we've had as much or more talent than many organizations, but we just have a much harder time getting them to "buy in" because they tend to bring baggage with them from so many other organizations. We don't have any type of identity as an organization. Lacking in "homegrown" players who are drafted and advance level by level and learn how to win together and trust in each other just seems like it's continuing to have a "trickle down" consequence at the big league level, even with Kenny Williams no longer making the day-to-day decisions.

 

The success stories that we do have are guys like Alexei Ramirez, Abreu, Sale and Rodon who hardly spent any time in our minor league system...and you're still seeing the lack of fundamentals in Alexei and Jose well past the time they left Cuba, because it seems like so much of major league coaching is "maintenance" and they just skipped over all the important lessons they should have learned because their sheer raw ability overcame it (or compensated for it). But certainly not enough to allow us to give up 1-2 runs every game to the opposition when the margin of talent differential has never been thinner, and every single run counts (especially in the early innings). How do you "retrain/untrain" those two or Avisail...how to improve Conor's footwork or Eaton's throwing and baserunning (mostly decision-making in both areas)...what can be done with Flowers and Soto at this point in their careers?

 

There aren't any simple answers, but I think it has to be fixed/addressed for this team to ever be a serious pennant contender again.

 

It worked in 2005 because Iguchi, Pods, Uribe, Crede, Rowand and Everett were all were leaders and brought out the best in their teammates. Going back to the "unselfish" idea, those were guys who weren't into their stats but mostly just wanted to win, above everything else. Buehrle, too.

 

We were told in the offseason that LaRoche and Robertson had those same qualities, but it seems like there's just too many players who are struggling with their individual situations for it to make much of a difference from a team perspective.

Edited June 1, 2015 by caulfield12

[LDF]

the biggest problem is or has been the ability to recognize talent esp in the area of drafting. lets take a look on who drafted Big Frank and Robin for starters. it goes back to the FO and lets see how that really worked?

 

next, with the FO lack of ability to drafting, how can anyone judge the coaches, if the product is not there.

 

the one thing that i did like was the hitting coach, when he went to the minors and talked to the other coaches. the coach Todd Steverson made it a point to see if the coaches are on the right page. now whose idea was that?? this is a great way to develop a cohesiveness thru out the whole system. great idea.

 

before i started my campaign against the FO, i mention that i am not going to look the other way. this team with the pitchers and Jose A, was too good to waste. i was going to be truthful and critical.

[caulfield12]

the biggest problem is or has been the ability to recognize talent esp in the area of drafting. lets take a look on who drafted Big Frank and Robin for starters. it goes back to the FO and lets see how that really worked?

 

next, with the FO lack of ability to drafting, how can anyone judge the coaches, if the product is not there.

 

the one thing that i did like was the hitting coach, when he went to the minors and talked to the other coaches. the coach Todd Steverson made it a point to see if the coaches are on the right page. now whose idea was that?? this is a great way to develop a cohesiveness thru out the whole system. great idea.

 

before i started my campaign against the FO, i mention that i am not going to look the other way. this team with the pitchers and Jose A, was too good to waste. i was going to be truthful and critical.

 

 

Larry Himes

[Dick Allen]

Dayton Moore author. If KW wrote a book on how to judge players, many here would laugh. Yet, Dayton Moore's Royals made the WC last year now he's a genius. He has been KC's GM since June of 2006. The Royals record:

 

2007 69-93

2008 75-87

2009 65-97

2010 67-95

2011 71-91

2012 72-90

2013 86-76

2014 89-73

 

Not really all that impressive. First 6 full seasons lost 90 + each time.

[LDF]

Larry Himes

 

exactly, first Himes, who had a great eye on talent, then Schuler and then Williams.

[LittleHurt05]

There aren't any simple answers, but I think it has to be fixed/addressed for this team to ever be a serious pennant contender again.

 

It worked in 2005 because Iguchi, Pods, Uribe, Crede, Rowand and Everett were all were leaders and brought out the best in their teammates. Going back to the "unselfish" idea, those were guys who weren't into their stats but mostly just wanted to win, above everything else. Buehrle, too.

 

We were told in the offseason that LaRoche and Robertson had those same qualities, but it seems like there's just too many players who are struggling with their individual situations for it to make much of a difference from a team perspective.

 

No.

[Dick Allen]

exactly, first Himes, who had a great eye on talent, then Schuler and then Williams.

Al Goldis was the scouting director, and he has had a nice record drafting players. Not just his brief stint with the White Sox which got him McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, Fernandez, he also drafted Durham, signed Magglio. When he went to the Cubs, Kerry Wood. I think he was with KC when the got Bo. Was with the Angels when the drafted Devon White and Dante Bichette, and was instrumental in the Sox acquiring Roberto Hernandez as an Angels farmhand for junk. He and Himes were about as successful a duo as can be with the most limited budget in baseball. The 1990 Sox won 94 or 95 games with the lowest payroll in baseball. I think Adam LaRoche alone makes more money this year than that team made total.

[LDF]

Al Goldis was the scouting director, and he has had a nice record drafting players. Not just his brief stint with the White Sox which got him McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, Fernandez, he also drafted Durham, signed Magglio. When he went to the Cubs, Kerry Wood. I think he was with KC when the got Bo. Was with the Angels when the drafted Devon White and Dante Bichette, and was instrumental in the Sox acquiring Roberto Hernandez as an Angels farmhand for junk. He and Himes were about as successful a duo as can be with the most limited budget in baseball. The 1990 Sox won 94 or 95 games with the lowest payroll in baseball. I think Adam LaRoche alone makes more money this year than that team made total.

 

that was a time to be a fan and that was when i was defending jr and the soxs for not going that extra mile in a fa.

 

but that was before, what has the GM has done and what notable players was drafted between 1999-2012???

 

how can anyone run a business and not see it wasn't working, and to hell with the minority card here.

 

btw, 2005 the sox got real lucky. but lets not obsessed with the WS, lets look at everything else.

[caulfield12]

Al Goldis was the scouting director, and he has had a nice record drafting players. Not just his brief stint with the White Sox which got him McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, Fernandez, he also drafted Durham, signed Magglio. When he went to the Cubs, Kerry Wood. I think he was with KC when the got Bo. Was with the Angels when the drafted Devon White and Dante Bichette, and was instrumental in the Sox acquiring Roberto Hernandez as an Angels farmhand for junk. He and Himes were about as successful a duo as can be with the most limited budget in baseball. The 1990 Sox won 94 or 95 games with the lowest payroll in baseball. I think Adam LaRoche alone makes more money this year than that team made total.

 

 

Art Stewart was responsible for Bo Jackson.

[Dick Allen]

Art Stewart was responsible for Bo Jackson.

My mistake. Goldis drafted Bo for California in 1985. He didn't sign.

[caulfield12]

Dayton Moore author. If KW wrote a book on how to judge players, many here would laugh. Yet, Dayton Moore's Royals made the WC last year now he's a genius. He has been KC's GM since June of 2006. The Royals record:

 

2007 69-93

2008 75-87

2009 65-97

2010 67-95

2011 71-91

2012 72-90

2013 86-76

2014 89-73

 

Not really all that impressive. First 6 full seasons lost 90 + each time.

 

 

By this same definition, Theo Epstein and Jeffrey Luhnow with the Astros should both be fired.

 

They've done nothing differently than build the best farm system in baseball, something Moore and the Royals did 5 years ago.

 

Basically, the only players that the Royals/Moore inherited were Alex Gordon and Billy Butler. (Not to mention the fact that they had to go through a complete rebuilding process of Alex Gordon because of the position change to LF, mostly through the help of former White Sox OF Rusty Kuntz).

 

Then you had Zach Greinke (who they traded for Alcides Escobar and Lorenzo Cain). And that was basically it.

 

 

Ever heard of Jeff Austin, Kyle Snyder, Mike Stodolka, Colt Griffin and Chris Lubanski?

 

All of them were Top 10 draft picks from previous GM's that flopped.

 

 

 

[LDF]

By this same definition, Theo Epstein and Jeffrey Luhnow with the Astros should both be fired.

 

They've done nothing differently than build the best farm system in baseball, something Moore and the Royals did 5 years ago.

 

Basically, the only players that the Royals/Moore inherited were Alex Gordon and Billy Butler. (Not to mention the fact that they had to go through a complete rebuilding process of Alex Gordon because of the position change to LF, mostly through the help of former White Sox OF Rusty Kuntz).

 

Then you had Zach Greinke (who they traded for Alcides Escobar and Lorenzo Cain). And that was basically it.

 

 

Ever heard of Jeff Austin, Kyle Snyder, Mike Stodolka, Colt Griffin and Chris Lubanski?

 

All of them were Top 10 draft picks from previous GM's that flopped.

 

as fans, we can keep posting name of success and failures. but, it goes back to a long time of failures from the sox org on drafting and scouting. let alone the development of hitters.

[Dick Allen]

By this same definition, Theo Epstein and Jeffrey Luhnow with the Astros should both be fired.

 

They've done nothing differently than build the best farm system in baseball, something Moore and the Royals did 5 years ago.

 

Basically, the only players that the Royals/Moore inherited were Alex Gordon and Billy Butler. (Not to mention the fact that they had to go through a complete rebuilding process of Alex Gordon because of the position change to LF, mostly through the help of former White Sox OF Rusty Kuntz).

 

Then you had Zach Greinke (who they traded for Alcides Escobar and Lorenzo Cain). And that was basically it.

 

 

Ever heard of Jeff Austin, Kyle Snyder, Mike Stodolka, Colt Griffin and Chris Lubanski?

 

All of them were Top 10 draft picks from previous GM's that flopped.

He also has had 6 top 8 picks as a GM.

And Moore totally flopped for 6 straight 90 loss seasons. Even the 2014 White Sox didn't lose 90 games and think how horrible you think they are now and how horrible you have pegged their future. The FACT is the Royals got lucky winning the WC game, now they are some sort of model. Bubba Starling says hi.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

He also has had 6 top 8 picks as a GM.

And Moore totally flopped for 6 straight 90 loss seasons. Even the 2014 White Sox didn't lose 90 games and think how horrible you think they are now and how horrible you have pegged their future. The FACT is the Royals got lucky winning the WC game, now they are some sort of model. Bubba Starling says hi.

 

 

Then we should subtract the 2008 White Sox playoff appearance because we got lucky that Hahn's son chose heads over tails?

 

You didn't answer the question, of course.

 

Should Luhnow and Theo Epstein both be fired because of the record of the Astros and Cubs for the last five seasons prior to this one?

 

 

The fact of the matter is that the last time the Royals had a playoff appearance was 29 years prior to that...the White Sox had a "playoff caliber" (and Top 10-12 MLB payroll) team as recently as 2012, and then proceeded to one of the worst two-year performance records in team history to follow that up.

 

Yet in the middle of that stretch you just brought up, the team president of the Royals gave Moore a contract extension.

 

Is JR about to give one to Rick Hahn and we just don't know about it?

 

 

Sal Perez, Yordano Ventura and K.Herrera, FA Latin American signings (Rene Francisco, came over from Braves)

Jarrod Dyson, 50th round

Danny Duffy, 3rd round

Greg Holland, 10th round

Terrance Gore, 20th round

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2015 by caulfield12

[LDF]

 

 

i know this is not the question. but my contention is, we as sox fans are smart and will not take any crap of an excuse from sox management.

[LDF]

Then we should subtract the 2008 White Sox playoff appearance because we got lucky that Hahn's son chose heads over tails?

 

You didn't answer the question, of course.

 

Should Luhnow and Theo Epstein both be fired because of the record of the Astros and Cubs for the last five seasons prior to this one?

 

 

The fact of the matter is that the last time the Royals had a playoff appearance was 29 years prior to that...the White Sox had a "playoff caliber" (and Top 10-12 MLB payroll) team as recently as 2012, and then proceeded to one of the worst two-year performance records in team history to follow that up.

 

Yet in the middle of that stretch you just brought up, the team president of the Royals gave Moore a contract extension.

 

Is JR about to give one to Rick Hahn and we just don't know about it?

 

Sal Perez, Yordano Ventura and K.Herrera, FA Latin American signings (Rene Francisco, came over from Braves)

Jarrod Dyson, 50th round

Danny Duffy, 3rd round

Greg Holland, 10th round

Terrance Gore, 20th round

 

i still maintain that the sox put themselves in the penalty box for the Widler fiasco. staying away and not signing any players for x amount of yrs.

[Dick Allen]

Then we should subtract the 2008 White Sox playoff appearance because we got lucky that Hahn's son chose heads over tails?

 

You didn't answer the question, of course.

 

Should Luhnow and Theo Epstein both be fired because of the record of the Astros and Cubs for the last five seasons prior to this one?

 

 

The fact of the matter is that the last time the Royals had a playoff appearance was 29 years prior to that...the White Sox had a "playoff caliber" (and Top 10-12 MLB payroll) team as recently as 2012, and then proceeded to one of the worst two-year performance records in team history to follow that up.

 

Yet in the middle of that stretch you just brought up, the team president of the Royals gave Moore a contract extension.

 

Is JR about to give one to Rick Hahn and we just don't know about it?

I didn't answer the question because no question was asked. Sigh. And it isn't my place to say if Theo should be fired, but I would bet if the Cubs lost 90 + 6 years in a row, there would be plenty of calls for his head. And if Hahn or KW lost 90 games plus 6 years in a row, you would be calling for their head. And regarding 2008, last I checked, KW hasn't written a book about how to judge players based off his success that season. But if Dayton Moore can have 6 90+ losing seasons in a row but is still a baseball genius in your mind, maybe you should cool it on all your posts about every White Sox employee needing to be replaced. Look at some of the players he passed on with these high picks. If it was KW doing it or the White Sox, you would be complaining like crazy. Since it is KC, he is doing everything right.

[Dick Allen]

Then we should subtract the 2008 White Sox playoff appearance because we got lucky that Hahn's son chose heads over tails?

 

You didn't answer the question, of course.

 

Should Luhnow and Theo Epstein both be fired because of the record of the Astros and Cubs for the last five seasons prior to this one?

 

 

The fact of the matter is that the last time the Royals had a playoff appearance was 29 years prior to that...the White Sox had a "playoff caliber" (and Top 10-12 MLB payroll) team as recently as 2012, and then proceeded to one of the worst two-year performance records in team history to follow that up.

 

Yet in the middle of that stretch you just brought up, the team president of the Royals gave Moore a contract extension.

 

Is JR about to give one to Rick Hahn and we just don't know about it?

 

 

Sal Perez, Yordano Ventura and K.Herrera, FA Latin American signings (Rene Francisco, came over from Braves)

Jarrod Dyson, 50th round

Danny Duffy, 3rd round

Greg Holland, 10th round

Terrance Gore, 20th round

 

Fun with numbers

 

John Danks ERA 4.81

Danny Duffy ERA 5.87

 

Jerrod Dyson .219/.254/.297 awesome

 

And of course in his 8 full seasons as a GM his teams have finished ahead of the White Sox , a team led by buffoons, twice.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

Fun with numbers

 

John Danks ERA 4.81

Danny Duffy ERA 5.87

 

Jerrod Dyson .219/.254/.297 awesome

 

And of course in his 8 full seasons as a GM his teams have finished ahead of the White Sox , a team led by buffoons, twice.

 

Terrence Gore .242/.349/.276 - in the minor leagues

[Dick Allen]

Terrence Gore .242/.349/.276 - in the minor leagues

Plus some of the guys he passed on with the high picks. He could have a rotation right now that featured Baumgarner, Sale, Wacha and Jose Fernandez. With Mike Trout patrolling CF.

[southsider2k5]

i still maintain that the sox put themselves in the penalty box for the Widler fiasco. staying away and not signing any players for x amount of yrs.

 

They didn't "put themselves in the penalty box" as much as they lost all structure and frame work in Latin America. It takes a while to build and then rebuild a network like that.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I didn't answer the question because no question was asked. Sigh. And it isn't my place to say if Theo should be fired, but I would bet if the Cubs lost 90 + 6 years in a row, there would be plenty of calls for his head. And if Hahn or KW lost 90 games plus 6 years in a row, you would be calling for their head. And regarding 2008, last I checked, KW hasn't written a book about how to judge players based off his success that season. But if Dayton Moore can have 6 90+ losing seasons in a row but is still a baseball genius in your mind, maybe you should cool it on all your posts about every White Sox employee needing to be replaced. Look at some of the players he passed on with these high picks. If it was KW doing it or the White Sox, you would be complaining like crazy. Since it is KC, he is doing everything right.

 

 

How's Christian Colon instead of Chris Sale working out?

[caulfield12]

I didn't answer the question because no question was asked. Sigh. And it isn't my place to say if Theo should be fired, but I would bet if the Cubs lost 90 + 6 years in a row, there would be plenty of calls for his head. And if Hahn or KW lost 90 games plus 6 years in a row, you would be calling for their head. And regarding 2008, last I checked, KW hasn't written a book about how to judge players based off his success that season. But if Dayton Moore can have 6 90+ losing seasons in a row but is still a baseball genius in your mind, maybe you should cool it on all your posts about every White Sox employee needing to be replaced. Look at some of the players he passed on with these high picks. If it was KW doing it or the White Sox, you would be complaining like crazy. Since it is KC, he is doing everything right.

 

 

Well, I kind of doubt that KW's every going to write a book where he donates 100% of the monies raised to charity.

 

But here's hoping...

[southsider2k5]

In this thread I would also offer this thought. All of this is a process. You just don't change something overnight and have it work. The Sox have gone a long way towards changing their draft philosophy over the last few years corresponding with the changes to the CBA and the draft slotting, plus there has been more money than ever put into our system by the team. You may not see the full results for the better part of a decade.

 

A lot of making results here is sucking really badly for a long period of time. It is how KC built their system. It is how the Cubs built their system. It is how Tampa built their system, and even more indicting is that their system has pretty well dried up corresponding with the time period of having a pretty good team for a decent period of time.

 

We have started to see some of the results already, as the White Sox farm system is as highly rated as it has been in years. We are about to put another top prospect into it at the #8 pick, and there are rumors of some pretty good signings from Latin America, not to mention some of that talent is starting to filter into the lower levels of the minors.

 

We are getting there, slowly but surely.

[LDF]

They didn't "put themselves in the penalty box" as much as they lost all structure and frame work in Latin America. It takes a while to build and then rebuild a network like that.

there is no way the sox org got away from any penalty b/c of Widler. there had to be a self impose penalty so they could keep it out of the media.

 

if anyone will think that no slap on the hand or harsher penalty not coming from the MLB bosses. then they are not wanting to look at it.