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KW: play is "embarassing" but team can still win ALC


southsider2k5

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 02:00 PM)
This is Hahn's 3rd season as the GM. He took over a team whose shelf life expired and was pretty bad. He's done a lot the last 3 years to make things bearable. I still think they will be entertaining this summer.

63 wins in '13. 73 wins last year. A last place team a third of the way through this season. I'm not sure how much more "bearable" I can take!

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QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 05:57 PM)
63 wins in '13. 73 wins last year. A last place team a third of the way through this season. I'm not sure how much more "bearable" I can take!

 

It's worth noting that our winning percentage is actually currently better than last year's and also that every player has sucked and also that it's June 2nd. And we're THREE GAMES under .500. And we want to fire the GM. WHo has increased our winning percentage every season so far.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 07:03 PM)
It's worth noting that our winning percentage is actually currently better than last year's and also that every player has sucked and also that it's June 2nd. And we're THREE GAMES under .500. And we want to fire the GM. WHo has increased our winning percentage every season so far.

If you want to play this game...we've increased our winning percentage by 0.18% this year and spent $30 million more than last year's payroll.

 

Getting to .500 at this pace will require a payroll of $175 million.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 06:03 PM)
It's worth noting that our winning percentage is actually currently better than last year's and also that every player has sucked and also that it's June 2nd. And we're THREE GAMES under .500. And we want to fire the GM. WHo has increased our winning percentage every season so far.

Actually, that's not true. The 63 wins in '13 was a decrease from '12, when in his first offseason as GM after '12 his biggest addition/upgrade to the team was Jeff Keppinger. With nowhere really to go but up, yes, he did increase the winning % last year by getting the team up to a whopping 73 wins. And now we are trending slightly better than that so far this year, but we're in last place, so that uptick really doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

So given Hahn has been a major part of the brain trust (such as it is) with Reinsdorf & Kenny over the past 13 years that has garnered all of two playoff appearances, I'm going to need to see a whole lot more than these slight upticks to have confidence he is the right guy to get us out of the baseball gutter.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 06:07 PM)
If you want to play this game...we've increased our winning percentage by 0.18% this year and spent $30 million more than last year's payroll.

 

Getting to .500 at this pace will require a payroll of $175 million.

 

1. Do you blame RH for Melky Cabrera's 52 wRC+?

2. Do you think Melky Cabrera will end the year with a 52 wRC+?

 

The season isn't even halfway over. Nearly EVERY player has underperformed. What was RH going to do this offseason that was going to overcome Sale/Abreu/Quintana/Eaton underperforming? Do you honestly think that he should have seen what has happened so far coming from Samardzija and Cabrera?

 

You can say the defense was never going to be good enough, but let's see what the team looks like when it actually IS doing what it's supposed to do before we conclude that it never had a prayer. THe GM can only do so much. RH went out and got a player who can hit, Melky Cabrera is the one that has to actually HIT.

 

I'm going to ignore the payroll/winning percentage thing because you KNOW that's a ridiculous strawman.

 

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 06:18 PM)
Actually, that's not true. The 63 wins in '13 was a decrease from '12, when in his first offseason as GM after '12 his biggest addition/upgrade to the team was Jeff Keppinger. With nowhere really to go but up, yes, he did increase the winning % last year by getting the team up to a whopping 73 wins. And now we are trending slightly better than that so far this year, but we're in last place, so that uptick really doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

So given Hahn has been a major part of the brain trust (such as it is) with Reinsdorf & Kenny over the past 13 years that has garnered all of two playoff appearances, I'm going to need to see a whole lot more than these slight upticks to have confidence he is the right guy to get us out of the baseball gutter.

 

2013 was NOT RH's team. It was holdover from the KW show. RH was "on the clock" beginning with the Peavy trade. That was his clean slate.

 

Also, Thad, it's June 2nd. Let's wait until at LEAST September before we put a wrap on this season.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 02:50 PM)

Yet KW is still employed by the Sox! Tells me something is very wrong with this organization to still trust a guy with a bad track record in a ton of areas. When Sox win 75 games in 2015 KW will still be here in 2016. It is a vicious cycle.

Edited by Soxfest
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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 06:07 PM)
If you want to play this game...we've increased our winning percentage by 0.18% this year and spent $30 million more than last year's payroll.

 

Getting to .500 at this pace will require a payroll of $175 million.

Come on man, the lineup has six regulars with negative WARs. Do you actually think that is sustainable?

 

There is no doubt the team will play better, as regression to the mean is a certainty. That isn't to say some (or even many) of these guys will end up with disappointing seasons or that we've already dug ourself a hole too deep to dig out of. But to act as if what we've seen in April & May is the end product is completely ridiculous.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 07:34 PM)
1. Do you blame RH for Melky Cabrera's 52 wRC+?

2. Do you think Melky Cabrera will end the year with a 52 wRC+?

 

The season isn't even halfway over. Nearly EVERY player has underperformed. What was RH going to do this offseason that was going to overcome Sale/Abreu/Quintana/Eaton underperforming? Do you honestly think that he should have seen what has happened so far coming from Samardzija and Cabrera?

 

You can say the defense was never going to be good enough, but let's see what the team looks like when it actually IS doing what it's supposed to do before we conclude that it never had a prayer. THe GM can only do so much. RH went out and got a player who can hit, Melky Cabrera is the one that has to actually HIT.

 

I'm going to ignore the payroll/winning percentage thing because you KNOW that's a ridiculous strawman.

1. It's certainly plausible to blame Rick Hahn for Melky Cabrera's $42 million.

 

2. I'm totally ok with your explanation, because it begs the instant question "how could every player on the roster possibly underperform?"

 

That doesn't happen by chance, that happens when people who have an impact on the entire team fail to have the team ready to compete on a regular basis.

 

So fine, you think Rick Hahn did a great job. I'm totally ok with that, because if this team keeps this BS up and you think RH did a fine job, then you are indicting the manager and coaching staff and making the case for me for why they're the ones who need to go.

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QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 06:24 PM)
I just hope the players start hitting so people on here stop wishing for human beings to be fired from their jobs. Mercy.

 

Yes, their kids are gonna starve with Latrell Sprewell's if they are fired.

 

Won't anyone think of the children?????

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 06:57 PM)
1. It's certainly plausible to blame Rick Hahn for Melky Cabrera's $42 million.

 

2. I'm totally ok with your explanation, because it begs the instant question "how could every player on the roster possibly underperform?"

 

That doesn't happen by chance, that happens when people who have an impact on the entire team fail to have the team ready to compete on a regular basis.

 

So fine, you think Rick Hahn did a great job. I'm totally ok with that, because if this team keeps this BS up and you think RH did a fine job, then you are indicting the manager and coaching staff and making the case for me for why they're the ones who need to go.

 

 

The 45-14 first inning deficit says a lot about how the team has been starting games all season long.

 

Tonight, same exact thing.

 

Obviously, the KW approach didn't work (and I don't think the team has ever responded positively to one of his rants, at least on the playing field, where it really matters).

 

 

 

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- I've watched these games. They’ve been painful games to watch To me it's not the manager’s fault

-on rotation: Its not perfect but if you have a strong offense, I think we have the pitching to carry us through

-They’re going to have to prove it on the field that we made the right decisions They’ll prove us right or they’ll prove us wrong

-would like to see some adjustments made in the team's offensive approach, that w/a bigger strike zone team has to be more aggressive

-minced no words about how badly team has played--"terrible, painful to watch"--but still believes team has a "great offense'

-Don't think we need a shakeup...This is a time to be patient

 

No not Kenny Williams, Boston Red Sox owner John Henry today speaking about his team

 

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 10:23 PM)
- I've watched these games. They’ve been painful games to watch To me it's not the manager’s fault

-on rotation: Its not perfect but if you have a strong offense, I think we have the pitching to carry us through

-They’re going to have to prove it on the field that we made the right decisions They’ll prove us right or they’ll prove us wrong

-would like to see some adjustments made in the team's offensive approach, that w/a bigger strike zone team has to be more aggressive

-minced no words about how badly team has played--"terrible, painful to watch"--but still believes team has a "great offense'

-Don't think we need a shakeup...This is a time to be patient

 

No not Kenny Williams, Boston Red Sox owner John Henry today speaking about his team

Is it time for Red Sox to move on from Farrell?

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 10:27 PM)
Funny you say that because Henry said both the GM and the Manager were staying put.

I'll take the pitching coach at this point. The Red Sox at least got that.

 

You want to give odds on whether that "vote of confidence" will survive a below .500 season?

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 08:27 PM)
Funny you say that because Henry said both the GM and the Manager were staying put.

 

 

Still waiting for Reinsdorf to blame himself for the dysfunction in both his baseball and basketball operations, lol.

 

I think we've been on the same wavelength, so you have to blame ownership as much as you can blame the general manager," said Henry.

 

 

"The strike zone is larger than it used to be, so you can't be as patient as you used to be," said Henry. "The game of baseball has changed a lot. The standings reflect that. You have Houston playing extremely well. You have the Yankees and the Red Sox -- the whole of the American League East, typically the best, for a long time perhaps the best division in baseball, is now, at least of today, it may be the weakest -- so this is a game of adjustments, and that's one adjustment that I believe we probably have to make."

 

I'd love to believe Reinsdorf is paying attention enough to this season's results that he could make some type of analytical comment (that the Moneyball/OBP theory is fading) about what change/s in approach need to be made exactly.

 

source: mlb.com

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 08:29 PM)
I'll take the pitching coach at this point. The Red Sox at least got that.

 

You want to give odds on whether that "vote of confidence" will survive a below .500 season?

 

 

And there's more ego involved here...especially as the Cubs near competitiveness.

 

He and Lucchino can't admit they made a mistake pushing out Epstein....they really have to stick with Cherington to prove it was the "Red Sox System" and not any one particular "God-like" front office executive who led to those three World Series titles.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 06:57 PM)
So fine, you think Rick Hahn did a great job. I'm totally ok with that, because if this team keeps this BS up and you think RH did a fine job, then you are indicting the manager and coaching staff and making the case for me for why they're the ones who need to go.

 

I don't think we know that. I think it's definitely PLAUSIBLE that the coaching staff is not putting the players in a position to win, but I don't think any of us have any evidence to suggest it's the case. The players seem to like the coaches, reporters seem to think that the coaches are putting in a lot of effort, the reporters are indicating that the team is practicing plenty. Beyond that, what can we evaluate as fans? Why was Abreu awesome under these coaches last year, but just solid now? Why were Sale and Quintana the same way? How did our "legendary" pitching coaches turn Samardzija into crap when they turned crap into gold every year previous?

 

And that's the issue. This board in general is quick to pin it on the coaches because they want to pin it on someone, but we have nothing to suggest that firing the coaches would actually fix the problem. It MIGHT, but Occam's Razor finds a different explanation that is simpler and more likely: the players are failing.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 3, 2015 -> 01:37 AM)
I don't think we know that. I think it's definitely PLAUSIBLE that the coaching staff is not putting the players in a position to win, but I don't think any of us have any evidence to suggest it's the case. The players seem to like the coaches, reporters seem to think that the coaches are putting in a lot of effort, the reporters are indicating that the team is practicing plenty. Beyond that, what can we evaluate as fans? Why was Abreu awesome under these coaches last year, but just solid now? Why were Sale and Quintana the same way? How did our "legendary" pitching coaches turn Samardzija into crap when they turned crap into gold every year previous?

 

And that's the issue. This board in general is quick to pin it on the coaches because they want to pin it on someone, but we have nothing to suggest that firing the coaches would actually fix the problem. It MIGHT, but Occam's Razor finds a different explanation that is simpler and more likely: the players are failing.

 

 

RV is 244-292 as a manager. We don't need anything else. Prima Facie, RV and his staff aren't good. You are what your record says you are.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from 100% convinced that RV is a bad manager, but the odds are greater he never manages again then "the next ____"

 

Middle case he's an average manager, of well, fire him anyways. Shake it up, what do you have to lose except more games?

Edited by chitownsportsfan
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QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 2, 2015 -> 03:31 PM)
What does Theo Epstein have to do with the White Sox repeatedly missing the playoffs under Kenny?

Everyone acts like Kenny is the gm still, and Rick is there to make fans think Kenny is not in charge. So yeah, I can compare the two situations.

Jerry himself has said that Rick would not be here as a figurehead or puppet.

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