KW: play is "embarassing" but team can still win ALC

[LDF]

None is taken at all. I'm just saying that he's exaggerating for effect with that post, but he's not being accurate. There are many simpler explanations for failure that he is not considering.

 

you may very well be right, i feel as i am totally out class in this debate going on.

 

point - counter point a great debate, no anger, no cussing, no belittling, this is what a great forum is suppose to provide. not all following the leader.

 

i am just reading and admiring the post.

 

maybe i am being simple minded. but that is me.

[LDF]

For the White Sox plan to work, he has to hit 30-40 homers per season.

 

The failures of Beckham, Viciedo, Melky (this season) and pretty much the entire infield/C to hit with any power (or to utilize their speed efficiently) have brought the White Sox to this relatively desperate position.

 

ok, thanks. my bad.

[LDF]

There is plenty of room for fluke in a 50 game sample. Look at the other end of the spectrum at who is in first place. Does anyone really think that Houston is a 101 win team? That is the pace they are on. Is Minnesota a 95 win team? That is the pace they are on. I think is pretty clear you will see some significant regression from those teams, just as there are high odds that you will see some significant improvement out of the White Sox.

nice .....

[LDF]

Odds are a numerical expression consisting of a pair of numbers.

 

alright, sounds like my old college professor......

 

[Thad Bosley]

Whichever name you want to assign to each era is fine, but there was a clear strategic shift that occurred beginning with the trade deadline in 2013, and the team is associating that with Rick Hahn's move to the primary executive role for day-to-day operations. I have no doubt that they're all involved, but the Sox have NOT conducted themselves the same way the past couple years. The most recent thread of action is the one we should be judging when considering the effect of Sox leadership currently.

So here's what I would tell you. I think the use of the term "primary executive" was, perhaps, applicable to Williams during his run as GM. You didn't see Reinsdorf keeping Schueler around in this role of "executive vice president of baseball ops" during that time. But now with Williams in that newly created role, and with Hahn having been his assistant GM all of those years prior, it's really hard to imagine that this so-called rebuild isn't more a co-developed approach then not.

 

Let's also not forget that shortly after the Peavy trade and the start of the rebuild, Kenny was quick to get in the press to let us know he was ready to do the exact same thing after the 2010 season. Unfortunately, that pesky "competitive spirit" of Mr. Reinsdorf gummed things up then, as he overrode that strategic decision that offseason in favor of the Adam Dunn-led "All In" effort. So they may call Hahn the "primary" exec, but the management structure and Kenny seemingly still hanging around quite a bit suggests Hahn isn't so much on his own plan for running this team as we think.

[southsider2k5]

So here's what I would tell you. I think the use of the term "primary executive" was, perhaps, applicable to Williams during his run as GM. You didn't see Reinsdorf keeping Schueler around in this role of "executive vice president of baseball ops" during that time. But now with Williams in that newly created role, and with Hahn having been his assistant GM all of those years prior, it's really hard to imagine that this so-called rebuild isn't more a co-developed approach then not.

 

Let's also not forget that shortly after the Peavy trade and the start of the rebuild, Kenny was quick to get in the press to let us know he was ready to do the exact same thing after the 2010 season. Unfortunately, that pesky "competitive spirit" of Mr. Reinsdorf gummed things up then, as he overrode that strategic decision that offseason in favor of the Adam Dunn-led "All In" effort. So they may call Hahn the "primary" exec, but the management structure and Kenny seemingly still hanging around quite a bit suggests Hahn isn't so much on his own plan for running this team as we think.

 

I think the idea that Rick Hahn has some completely different plan that is being stifled by everyone here is just silly.

 

First of all, Rick Hahn cut his teeth with the White Sox. If anyone has an idea of how the front office of the White Sox is run, it is Rick. The guy has worked for this team for over a decade. He knows very clearly the organizational structure here, and he knows it infinitely better then any of us on Soxtalk.

 

Second of all, Hahn had teams knocking on his door, trying to get him to interview with them. The Trib article about Rick's promotion stated that at least five different teams came after him at various points. Taking the assumption that Rick Hahn understood what he was getting into with the White Sox, and the fact that despite having many other teams after him, he turned them all down and waited for a promotion here, you can only make the reasoned point that even with the understanding of how the White Sox are run, he wanted to be here. Not only did he want to be here, he wanted to be here more than just about anywhere else. If he didn't, he would have either taken these other interviews, or waited out his contract to find a better organization. None of that actually happened. The only reasonable conclusion is that knowing his market for another job, and knowing how the Sox are run, he wanted to be here.

 

Finally, knowing that both Kenny and Jerry had what ever level of input that was related to Rick in the promotional process, Rick Hahn was also fine with that. He also was accepting of whatever long term strategic plan that was related to him over the course of his time with the organization. When he accepted the promotion, he knew damned well his level of power, the approval process within the organization, and the long term plan for the franchise. Again, if he didn't like any of it, he wouldn't have taken the position. There are only two reasonable conclusions that can be had here. #1, Rick Hahn is totally on board with whatever plan was discussed along they way. #2 Rick Hahn is perfectly willing to accept whatever directives that Jerry and Kenny have put together for this team.

 

Now what are the levels of input and freedom that Rick has? Who knows. Whatever it is, it is something that was established years ago, and involves upper management pretty intimately. To me is also obvious that upper management is OK with what Rick Hahn wants to do, and Rick Hahn is OK with what Kenny and Jerry want to do. If all three of them weren't OK with it, some combination of Rick and Kenny wouldn't be here. They almost have to be on the same page. None of these guys is functioning independent of the others, otherwise this set up would have never happened. No matter who is the "primary" thought guy here, this is a team effort.

[LDF]

So here's what I would tell you. I think the use of the term "primary executive" was, perhaps, applicable to Williams during his run as GM. You didn't see Reinsdorf keeping Schueler around in this role of "executive vice president of baseball ops" during that time. But now with Williams in that newly created role, and with Hahn having been his assistant GM all of those years prior, it's really hard to imagine that this so-called rebuild isn't more a co-developed approach then not.

 

Let's also not forget that shortly after the Peavy trade and the start of the rebuild, Kenny was quick to get in the press to let us know he was ready to do the exact same thing after the 2010 season. Unfortunately, that pesky "competitive spirit" of Mr. Reinsdorf gummed things up then, as he overrode that strategic decision that offseason in favor of the Adam Dunn-led "All In" effort. So they may call Hahn the "primary" exec, but the management structure and Kenny seemingly still hanging around quite a bit suggests Hahn isn't so much on his own plan for running this team as we think.

 

actually this was talked about before, and that was when i was arguing the point of how the sox went from a mid 90's win team and made some horrible fa additions and how the pitchers were not, what i would call potent.

[The Ginger Kid]

If all three of them weren't OK with it, some combination of Rick and Kenny wouldn't be here. They almost have to be on the same page.

Which kind of bums me out. Kenny's got a losing record as a GM but he gave JR a ring and that's apparently a lifetime pass. I'm left to wonder what Dan Evans might have done. Guy has a great eye for talent.

[LDF]

I think the idea that Rick Hahn has some completely different plan that is being stifled by everyone here is just silly.

 

First of all, Rick Hahn cut his teeth with the White Sox. If anyone has an idea of how the front office of the White Sox is run, it is Rick. The guy has worked for this team for over a decade. He knows very clearly the organizational structure here, and he knows it infinitely better then any of us on Soxtalk.

 

Second of all, Hahn had teams knocking on his door, trying to get him to interview with them. The Trib article about Rick's promotion stated that at least five different teams came after him at various points. Taking the assumption that Rick Hahn understood what he was getting into with the White Sox, and the fact that despite having many other teams after him, he turned them all down and waited for a promotion here, you can only make the reasoned point that even with the understanding of how the White Sox are run, he wanted to be here. Not only did he want to be here, he wanted to be here more than just about anywhere else. If he didn't, he would have either taken these other interviews, or waited out his contract to find a better organization. None of that actually happened. The only reasonable conclusion is that knowing his market for another job, and knowing how the Sox are run, he wanted to be here.

 

Finally, knowing that both Kenny and Jerry had what ever level of input that was related to Rick in the promotional process, Rick Hahn was also fine with that. He also was accepting of whatever long term strategic plan that was related to him over the course of his time with the organization. When he accepted the promotion, he knew damned well his level of power, the approval process within the organization, and the long term plan for the franchise. Again, if he didn't like any of it, he wouldn't have taken the position. There are only two reasonable conclusions that can be had here. #1, Rick Hahn is totally on board with whatever plan was discussed along they way. #2 Rick Hahn is perfectly willing to accept whatever directives that Jerry and Kenny have put together for this team.

 

Now what are the levels of input and freedom that Rick has? Who knows. Whatever it is, it is something that was established years ago, and involves upper management pretty intimately. To me is also obvious that upper management is OK with what Rick Hahn wants to do, and Rick Hahn is OK with what Kenny and Jerry want to do. If all three of them weren't OK with it, some combination of Rick and Kenny wouldn't be here. They almost have to be on the same page. None of these guys is functioning independent of the others, otherwise this set up would have never happened. No matter who is the "primary" thought guy here, this is a team effort.

 

being on the same page, great point in that post.

[Dick Allen]

Schueler was still in the payroll a year or two after he quit.and while KW worked under him when he was the GM, Schueler reccommended Dan Evans to JR for the job.

 

The fascinating thing about this whole thing was everyone was stroking Rick's cock for the moves this winter. Now that the team has struggled, those were stupid moves that KW made.

[LDF]

Schueler was still in the payroll a year or two after he quit.and while KW worked under him when he was the GM, Schueler reccommended Dan Evans to JR for the job.

 

The fascinating thing about this whole thing was everyone was stroking Rick's cock for the moves this winter. Now that the team has struggled, those were stupid moves that KW made.

 

i was a major backer of Hahn and his moves. but the rebuild just stopped. i know b/c i ranted on this. whether i was right in the ranks is not the point, the point is, the rebuild was not finished. they ASSUMED that what they did, was enuf.

 

having 1 player or 2 underperforming is not the reason this whole team is floundering.

 

the mystery is what is causing this slump?

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Schueler was still in the payroll a year or two after he quit.and while KW worked under him when he was the GM, Schueler reccommended Dan Evans to JR for the job.

 

The fascinating thing about this whole thing was everyone was stroking Rick's cock for the moves this winter. Now that the team has struggled, those were stupid moves that KW made.

 

And supposedly it was Schueler who pushed for the infamous Todd Ritchie.

[Dick Allen]

i was a major backer of Hahn and his moves. but the rebuild just stopped. i know b/c i ranted on this. whether i was right in the ranks is not the point, the point is, the rebuild was not finished. they ASSUMED that what they did, was enuf.

 

having 1 player or 2 underperforming is not the reason this whole team is floundering.

 

the mystery is what is causing this slump?

There were other things they wanted to do that couldn't get done.

[Balta1701]

There were other things they wanted to do that couldn't get done.

So Rick Hahn blew a $30 million payroll increase and did so while knowingly leaving gaps that could easily screw over his team's chances of being competitive?

 

Wow, Rick Hahn is even worse at this than I could have imagined.

[LDF]

So Rick Hahn blew a $30 million payroll increase and did so while knowingly leaving gaps that could easily screw over his team's chances of being competitive?

 

Wow, Rick Hahn is even worse at this than I could have imagined.

 

who to say it was Hahn who did this, b/c he is suppose to be the gm in charge?? williams has veto power, the owners group, wants to make money.

 

we do know, RV had no voice in this. oh i forgot, the ace in the hole in the pitching rotation, B Penny and at what cost??

[LDF]

There were other things they wanted to do that couldn't get done.

 

and who was at fault??

[Iwritecode]

The odds are they aren't a playoff team.

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/the-meaning-o...ord-in-mid-may/

 

In fact, very few teams below .500 on May 15 actually make it to October, but your odds improve considerably the closer you are to the break-even point. Just 4.6 percent of teams that were at or under .500 on May 15 made it to the playoffs. However, of the teams that were below .500 but managed to stay above .400, 6.7 percent made it.

 

The Sox were 15-17 on May 15.

[Dick Allen]

So Rick Hahn blew a $30 million payroll increase and did so while knowingly leaving gaps that could easily screw over his team's chances of being competitive?

 

Wow, Rick Hahn is even worse at this than I could have imagined.

In your effort to complain about everything, you are really making yourself look like a guy who knows nothing. Building a team to be what you want is not always possible in one offseason. Filling all your holes is not easily done. Name a team that has done it. Just one. You won't. You will come back with some other gripe.

[Eminor3rd]

So Rick Hahn blew a $30 million payroll increase and did so while knowingly leaving gaps that could easily screw over his team's chances of being competitive?

 

Wow, Rick Hahn is even worse at this than I could have imagined.

 

You are continually insisting that a team strategy needs to be ALL IN or TOTAL DISASTER with nothing in between. That just is not reality. Look around the league.

[southsider2k5]

You are continually insisting that a team strategy needs to be ALL IN or TOTAL DISASTER with nothing in between. That just is not reality. Look around the league.

 

If those poor people would just get jobs, they wouldn't be poor anymore.

[Eminor3rd]

and who was at fault??

 

We don't know. Some combination of fate and the collective that runs the White Sox.

 

The good news is that it's only important to us if we insist on having a scapegoat to blame. It really doesn't matter at all. I understand why we, as fans, all WANT to have enough information and insight to make hiring/firing decisions for our favorite team, but the fact is that we just don't and we never will.

[Dick Allen]

and who was at fault??

It could be other teams were asking too much for their players. It could be guys they wanted to sign chose other teams. It could be they ran out of budget to fill holes. The It's either a team that should lead the division by 20 games by the end of May or should be rebuilding, is a figment of the chronic whiners' around here collective imaginations. Add the fire someone to show accountability crap, yet they don't want to hold the players, the people most accountable, accountable.

[Eminor3rd]

I think the idea that Rick Hahn has some completely different plan that is being stifled by everyone here is just silly.

 

First of all, Rick Hahn cut his teeth with the White Sox. If anyone has an idea of how the front office of the White Sox is run, it is Rick. The guy has worked for this team for over a decade. He knows very clearly the organizational structure here, and he knows it infinitely better then any of us on Soxtalk.

 

Second of all, Hahn had teams knocking on his door, trying to get him to interview with them. The Trib article about Rick's promotion stated that at least five different teams came after him at various points. Taking the assumption that Rick Hahn understood what he was getting into with the White Sox, and the fact that despite having many other teams after him, he turned them all down and waited for a promotion here, you can only make the reasoned point that even with the understanding of how the White Sox are run, he wanted to be here. Not only did he want to be here, he wanted to be here more than just about anywhere else. If he didn't, he would have either taken these other interviews, or waited out his contract to find a better organization. None of that actually happened. The only reasonable conclusion is that knowing his market for another job, and knowing how the Sox are run, he wanted to be here.

 

Finally, knowing that both Kenny and Jerry had what ever level of input that was related to Rick in the promotional process, Rick Hahn was also fine with that. He also was accepting of whatever long term strategic plan that was related to him over the course of his time with the organization. When he accepted the promotion, he knew damned well his level of power, the approval process within the organization, and the long term plan for the franchise. Again, if he didn't like any of it, he wouldn't have taken the position. There are only two reasonable conclusions that can be had here. #1, Rick Hahn is totally on board with whatever plan was discussed along they way. #2 Rick Hahn is perfectly willing to accept whatever directives that Jerry and Kenny have put together for this team.

 

Now what are the levels of input and freedom that Rick has? Who knows. Whatever it is, it is something that was established years ago, and involves upper management pretty intimately. To me is also obvious that upper management is OK with what Rick Hahn wants to do, and Rick Hahn is OK with what Kenny and Jerry want to do. If all three of them weren't OK with it, some combination of Rick and Kenny wouldn't be here. They almost have to be on the same page. None of these guys is functioning independent of the others, otherwise this set up would have never happened. No matter who is the "primary" thought guy here, this is a team effort.

 

And this pretty much represents the extent of what we can infer about how the FO runs.

[LDF]

We don't know. Some combination of fate and the collective that runs the White Sox.

 

The good news is that it's only important to us if we insist on having a scapegoat to blame. It really doesn't matter at all. I understand why we, as fans, all WANT to have enough information and insight to make hiring/firing decisions for our favorite team, but the fact is that we just don't and we never will.

 

and this

 

It could be other teams were asking too much for their players. It could be guys they wanted to sign chose other teams. It could be they ran out of budget to fill holes. The It's either a team that should lead the division by 20 games by the end of May or should be rebuilding, is a figment of the chronic whiners' around here collective imaginations. Add the fire someone to show accountability crap, yet they don't want to hold the players, the people most accountable, accountable.

 

are both excellent posts.

[southsider2k5]

That's really the prevailing point too.

 

On one side of this thread you have guys making characterizations (which I think are mischaracterizations) on individuals that are making a narrative to run with. Basically, KW is the worst. It's just fighting for your bias without any information to back it. Kenny Williams would have never suggested Rick Hahn's promotion if they didn't compliment each other well or work well together. Rick Hahn would have never turned down all his interview offers if he expected KW to hamper his career. Now the moves and direction of this team can't be attributable to either by us fans, but be damn sure they're in this together and they're both accountable (relative to a Reinsdorf-ran team). It's not one or the other. They work hand-in-hand.

 

Someone in the organization told me, "Kenny has the juice... Hahn handles the day-to-day stuff and Kenny misses that part of the job, but Kenny is very much in charge." Given his title, I don't know why that would shock anyone. KW is very much immersed in his career and has aspirations, he wouldn't suggest promoting Hahn so he can sit in his office while Hahn does everything.

 

It is kind of like The Beatles. Everything was Lennon–McCartney credited. It wasn't John Lennon on some, and Paul McCartney on others no matter how much was done by an individual on anything.