KW: play is "embarassing" but team can still win ALC

[chitownsportsfan]

i am at work so my response may come and go as this day finishes.

 

but the other point i wanted to add is, for me and than maybe it is me, you don't throw your own people under the bus, or hang them out to dry. what happen to meetings behind close doors.

this was just a bad move on the bosses of the org.

 

Well I don't agree with throwing an individual under the bus I don't really mind if KW says the play of the team has been "embarrassing". I'd prefer if he just declined interviews but I don't have any beef with him calling it as he sees it. The play has been embarrassing a times.

 

As to SouthSider2k's point about how the entire lineup other than Avi is underperforming -- hey, goes back to my argument -- broom the coaching staff because you can't fire 12 position players.

[Dick Allen]

Well I don't agree with throwing an individual under the bus I don't really mind if KW says the play of the team has been "embarrassing". I'd prefer if he just declined interviews but I don't have any beef with him calling it as he sees it. The play has been embarrassing a times.

 

As to SouthSider2k's point about how the entire lineup other than Avi is underperforming -- hey, goes back to my argument -- broom the coaching staff because you can't fire 12 position players.

The problem with that is, you didn't solve the problem. Milwaukee and Miami fired their managers. That probably satisfied some meatheads in their area, but the results remain the same. Firing the coaching staff does not address the problem, and KW thankfully said that and understands that. I agree with him that the players will start playing closer to their norms, which should mean many will do a lot better than usual for a while to get there. And if it doesn't work, they will change some players.

[Special K]

The problem with that is, you didn't solve the problem. Milwaukee and Miami fired their managers. That probably satisfied some meatheads in their area, but the results remain the same. Firing the coaching staff does not address the problem, and KW thankfully said that and understands that. I agree with him that the players will start playing closer to their norms, which should mean many will do a lot better than usual for a while to get there. And if it doesn't work, they will change some players.

 

 

Under what scenario do you ever consider changing the manager and his staff?

[Lemon_44]

The problem with that is, you didn't solve the problem. Milwaukee and Miami fired their managers. That probably satisfied some meatheads in their area, but the results remain the same. Firing the coaching staff does not address the problem, and KW thankfully said that and understands that. I agree with him that the players will start playing closer to their norms, which should mean many will do a lot better than usual for a while to get there. And if it doesn't work, they will change some players.

I agree with you for the most part that it's mostly on the players but the manager and coaching staff have to take some responsibility also. Are they doing what's necessary to put the players in the best position to attain success?

 

I usually agree that a coach/manager is only as good as his players but there are guys that are better managers than others. I don't get into micro-managing every move RV makes like some do. My biggest peeve with Ventura is his reluctance, or stubborn nature, when it comes to making changes in the batting order. I get that players want to settle into their perceived roes but, if something is not working after a while, try something else. I'm not saying overreact and make changes after every mini losing streak but Adam Dunn failed miserably for 3 years in the middle of the order, Melky has batted #2 for about 1/3 of the season with limited success, and it seems no matter how much he struggles, Adam Eaton is going to be in the 1 hole. Just sitting back and waiting for guys to return to norm is, to me, asking for trouble and not being a very pro-active manager.

[LDF]

I agree with you for the most part that it's mostly on the players but the manager and coaching staff have to take some responsibility also. Are they doing what's necessary to put the players in the best position to attain success?

 

I usually agree that a coach/manager is only as good as his players but there are guys that are better managers than others. I don't get into micro-managing every move RV makes like some do. My biggest peeve with Ventura is his reluctance, or stubborn nature, when it comes to making changes in the batting order. I get that players want to settle into their perceived roes but, if something is not working after a while, try something else. I'm not saying overreact and make changes after every mini losing streak but Adam Dunn failed miserably for 3 years in the middle of the order, Melky has batted #2 for about 1/3 of the season with limited success, and it seems no matter how much he struggles, Adam Eaton is going to be in the 1 hole. Just sitting back and waiting for guys to return to norm is, to me, asking for trouble and not being a very pro-active manager.

 

you and Dick Allen made excellent point. i just had a problem of dressing down the team and only the team in the press. the blame needs to be spread across the whole team..

 

but maybe i am the problem here. maybe i am flopping around reacting with my emotion and not with my logic.

[southsider2k5]

I agree with you for the most part that it's mostly on the players but the manager and coaching staff have to take some responsibility also. Are they doing what's necessary to put the players in the best position to attain success?

 

I usually agree that a coach/manager is only as good as his players but there are guys that are better managers than others. I don't get into micro-managing every move RV makes like some do. My biggest peeve with Ventura is his reluctance, or stubborn nature, when it comes to making changes in the batting order. I get that players want to settle into their perceived roes but, if something is not working after a while, try something else. I'm not saying overreact and make changes after every mini losing streak but Adam Dunn failed miserably for 3 years in the middle of the order, Melky has batted #2 for about 1/3 of the season with limited success, and it seems no matter how much he struggles, Adam Eaton is going to be in the 1 hole. Just sitting back and waiting for guys to return to norm is, to me, asking for trouble and not being a very pro-active manager.

 

Eaton rebounded after a bad April.

 

He hit .262/.325/.402/.727 in May. Eaton actually had a league adjusted OPS+ of 104.

[Eminor3rd]

Under what scenario do you ever consider changing the manager and his staff?

 

When you have reason to believe that the staff is failing at their job. Unfortunately, we fans may never have that information, but the front office see what we cannot.

[kitekrazy]

And then everyone would complain that he is either dodging the media, or lifeless.

 

The media then speculates.

 

[kitekrazy]

BTW this isn't the first time Kenny has done this.

[Dick Allen]

Under what scenario do you ever consider changing the manager and his staff?

When your staff is mailing it in, not doing what you expect them to do. These guys watch them every day. We don't. People just assume Robin shows up, gets dressed and sits there bored to tears waiting for the game to end so he can go home. Articles, like this one, speak of the entire staff's work ethic. Stone was talking about the White Sox staff the other day saying they are there to help almost all day long. They come early, stay late, give them extra BP, extra fielding, additional side sessions for pitchers if requested. People love to see other people get fired. That's one reason Trump's show is still on the air. From the bits and pieces we get at the full story, not the little you see on TV and assume, the coaching staff and manager is the least of the White Sox problems.

[Dick Allen]

BTW this isn't the first time Kenny has done this.

Right. His comments were in a thread a couple of weeks ago. Almost a blueprint of a story.

[Eminor3rd]

When your staff is mailing it in, not doing what you expect them to do. These guys watch them every day. We don't. People just assume Robin shows up, gets dressed and sits there bored to tears waiting for the game to end so he can go home. Articles, like this one, speak of the entire staff's work ethic. Stone was talking about the White Sox staff the other day saying they are there to help almost all day long. They come early, stay late, give them extra BP, extra fielding, additional side sessions for pitchers if requested. People love to see other people get fired. That's one reason Trump's show is still on the air. From the bits and pieces we get at the full story, not the little you see on TV and assume, the coaching staff and manager is the least of the White Sox problems.

 

This

[Balta1701]

When your staff is mailing it in, not doing what you expect them to do. These guys watch them every day. We don't. People just assume Robin shows up, gets dressed and sits there bored to tears waiting for the game to end so he can go home. Articles, like this one, speak of the entire staff's work ethic. Stone was talking about the White Sox staff the other day saying they are there to help almost all day long. They come early, stay late, give them extra BP, extra fielding, additional side sessions for pitchers if requested. People love to see other people get fired. That's one reason Trump's show is still on the air. From the bits and pieces we get at the full story, not the little you see on TV and assume, the coaching staff and manager is the least of the White Sox problems.

In that case, the people who chose these players are at the top of the list of White Sox problems.

[Soxfest]

In that case, the people who chose these players are at the top of the list of White Sox problems.

It is a vicious circle where no one is too blame year after year, just ask Sox management.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Soxfest

[LittleHurt05]

In that case, the people who chose these players are at the top of the list of White Sox problems.

 

It's not their fault, it's the players' fault, we have been over this. They always choose the right players, it just doesn't usually work out.

[Dick Allen]

In that case, the people who chose these players are at the top of the list of White Sox problems.

The fact is, one team wins every year. It generally takes more than a year or two to build a champion, and there rarely are champions that remain champions for several consectutive years. Hahn said they weren't where they wanted to be at the beginning of this. They knew they are still short in certain areas, but to say, well you tried to win so either the guy that put your roster together or the guy that manages your team or both are idiots who need to be fired is beyond meatheaded. That would mean there would be a huge turnover every year with almost every team.

[LittleHurt05]

The fact is, one team wins every year. It generally takes more than a year or two to build a champion, and there rarely are champions that remain champions for several consectutive years. Hahn said they weren't where they wanted to be at the beginning of this. They knew they are still short in certain areas, but to say, well you tried to win so either the guy that put your roster together or the guy that manages your team or both are idiots who need to be fired is beyond meatheaded. That would mean there would be a huge turnover every year with almost every team.

 

The fact is, 10 teams make the playoffs every year. (formerly 8) The White Sox haven't been one of those teams in seven years with the same people in the front office.

[Dick Allen]

The fact is, 10 teams make the playoffs every year. (formerly 8) The White Sox haven't been one of those teams in seven years with the same people in the front office.

This is Hahn's 3rd season as the GM. He took over a team whose shelf life expired and was pretty bad. He's done a lot the last 3 years to make things bearable. I still think they will be entertaining this summer.

[Balta1701]

The fact is, one team wins every year. It generally takes more than a year or two to build a champion, and there rarely are champions that remain champions for several consectutive years. Hahn said they weren't where they wanted to be at the beginning of this. They knew they are still short in certain areas, but to say, well you tried to win so either the guy that put your roster together or the guy that manages your team or both are idiots who need to be fired is beyond meatheaded. That would mean there would be a huge turnover every year with almost every team.

Then spending $100 million of additional funds on this roster with veterans over 30 who you expect to gradually get worse and more likely to be injured each year and trading for a major addition with 1 year on his contract was absolutely foolhardy. If your team isn't ready to compete right now, why on Earth are you spending money on free agents? Why on Earth are you trading players for a guy who won't be here in a year?

 

[LDF]

This is Hahn's 3rd season as the GM. He took over a team whose shelf life expired and was pretty bad. He's done a lot the last 3 years to make things bearable. I still think they will be entertaining this summer.

i too believe in this team, until well until they are mathematically out of it.

 

i will not say anymore

[Eminor3rd]

Then spending $100 million of additional funds on this roster with veterans over 30 who you expect to gradually get worse and more likely to be injured each year and trading for a major addition with 1 year on his contract was absolutely foolhardy. If your team isn't ready to compete right now, why on Earth are you spending money on free agents? Why on Earth are you trading players for a guy who won't be here in a year?

 

Because the balls-out/rebuild model is obsolete. Practically every team in baseball is moving to one where they shoot for 85 wins every year now because it makes sense under the current post-season structure.

[LittleHurt05]

This is Hahn's 3rd season as the GM. He took over a team whose shelf life expired and was pretty bad. He's done a lot the last 3 years to make things bearable. I still think they will be entertaining this summer.

 

KW is still a major part of the decision process and he was directly responsible for the team whose shelf life expired and was pretty bad.

[chitownsportsfan]

Then spending $100 million of additional funds on this roster with veterans over 30 who you expect to gradually get worse and more likely to be injured each year and trading for a major addition with 1 year on his contract was absolutely foolhardy. If your team isn't ready to compete right now, why on Earth are you spending money on free agents? Why on Earth are you trading players for a guy who won't be here in a year?

 

Well you do have to fill out a roster and as you said above, 10 teams now make the playoffs. That gives teams that are hovering around 77-80 wins, like the Sox, the incentive to try and get around 83-85 wins (on paper).

 

The problem so far is that all the projections had this team as around 77-80 wins AFTER they signed everyone and what do you know, those projections look accurate

 

However, I will continue to point out the absolute train wreck of a club Hahn took over. Other than Sale and Q there wasn't a single premium talent anywhere in site either in MLB or on the farm. Hahn talked a lot about how the plan was "to compete in 16" but they felt they were close enough to try this year. Well, they were (probably) wrong, but I'm not going to throw up my arms and say they made a bunch of bad moves. The moves looked fine on paper and frankly the contracts do to. There isn't a single guy they couldn't move if they wanted, including La Roche and Melky.

 

I want to emphasize there are no "Adam Dunns" or "Alex Rios" or "Jake Peavy" contracts on this team anymore, guys that are so not worth their deal they clear waivers.

 

If Laroche or Melky was DFA'd today I would bet almost anything they'd be claimed in an instant.

Edited June 2, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[chitownsportsfan]

Because the balls-out/rebuild model is obsolete. Practically every team in baseball is moving to one where they shoot for 85 wins every year now because it makes sense under the current post-season structure.

 

Yep, a point I made as well.

[Dick Allen]

Then spending $100 million of additional funds on this roster with veterans over 30 who you expect to gradually get worse and more likely to be injured each year and trading for a major addition with 1 year on his contract was absolutely foolhardy. If your team isn't ready to compete right now, why on Earth are you spending money on free agents? Why on Earth are you trading players for a guy who won't be here in a year?

You can think what you want, obviously in your world you are either horrible and rebuilding or a World Champion or someone needs to be fired. Baseball isn't as black and white as you seem to think.