KW: play is "embarassing" but team can still win ALC

[Balta1701]

Everyone acts like Kenny is the gm still, and Rick is there to make fans think Kenny is not in charge. So yeah, I can compare the two situations.

Jerry himself has said that Rick would not be here as a figurehead or puppet.

Based on the fact that he's giving interviews sounding like the GM...that everyone includes KW.

[Thad Bosley]

2013 was NOT RH's team. It was holdover from the KW show. RH was "on the clock" beginning with the Peavy trade. That was his clean slate.

 

Also, Thad, it's June 2nd. Let's wait until at LEAST September before we put a wrap on this season.

The 2013 team was more Rick Hahn's than it wasn't. It wasn't like he came from another organization to inherit that mess. As Asst. General Manager, he had influence on every single individual comprising the roster that year. He also had an entire offseason beforehand to make changes to the roster, and he didn't, really, other than adding Keppinger. So I'd say he is as much to blame for that horrific '13 season as his predecessor.

 

It seems a little far fetched to me to suggest that from 2002-2012, when Kenny was GM and Hahn was Asst. GM, that somehow Kenny was solely responsible for baseball decisions made to the team during that timeframe, and that subsequent to 2012, it has all just been "The Rick Hahn Show". I think Kenny's periodic interviews suggest rather strongly that he is still very influential on any baseball decisions made. So as far as I can tell, since 2002, the White Sox have essentially been run by the trio of Reinsdorf, Williams & Hahn, with only a change in titles for the latter two a few years ago, while maintaining a consensus view between the three in terms of strategy and decisions made throughout these past 13 years.

[caulfield12]

Over the last 24-48 hours, we've had both a micromanaging owner and KW describing their team's current level of play as embarassing or pathetic...but nothing from the GM or manager of those two respective SOX organizations.

 

We've also had two dreaded votes of confidence.

 

So who really wears the pants?

 

It seems to me that KW is speaking for Reinsdorf.

[caulfield12]

The 2013 team was more Rick Hahn's than it wasn't. It wasn't like he came from another organization to inherit that mess. As Asst. General Manager, he had influence on every single individual comprising the roster that year. He also had an entire offseason beforehand to make changes to the roster, and he didn't, really, other than adding Keppinger. So I'd say he is as much to blame for that horrific '13 season as his predecessor.

 

It seems a little far fetched to me to suggest that from 2002-2012, when Kenny was GM and Hahn was Asst. GM, that somehow Kenny was solely responsible for baseball decisions made to the team during that timeframe, and that subsequent to 2012, it has all just been "The Rick Hahn Show". I think Kenny's periodic interviews suggest rather strongly that he is still very influential on any baseball decisions made. So as far as I can tell, since 2002, the White Sox have essentially been run by the trio of Reinsdorf, Williams & Hahn, with only a change in titles for the latter two a few years ago, while maintaining a consensus view between the three in terms of strategy and decisions made throughout these past 13 years.

 

And, if anything, the push to sign Abreu came mostly from Williams and Paddy on the scouting/talent evaluation side vs. Hahn's contracts/ROI/financial obligations expertise.

 

I would love to know who pushed the most for Melky Cabrera, in particular. And who among KW, Hahn and Ventura most actively supported keeping Flowers as the starting catcher.

[caulfield12]

The 2013 team was more Rick Hahn's than it wasn't. It wasn't like he came from another organization to inherit that mess. As Asst. General Manager, he had influence on every single individual comprising the roster that year. He also had an entire offseason beforehand to make changes to the roster, and he didn't, really, other than adding Keppinger. So I'd say he is as much to blame for that horrific '13 season as his predecessor.

 

It seems a little far fetched to me to suggest that from 2002-2012, when Kenny was GM and Hahn was Asst. GM, that somehow Kenny was solely responsible for baseball decisions made to the team during that timeframe, and that subsequent to 2012, it has all just been "The Rick Hahn Show". I think Kenny's periodic interviews suggest rather strongly that he is still very influential on any baseball decisions made. So as far as I can tell, since 2002, the White Sox have essentially been run by the trio of Reinsdorf, Williams & Hahn, with only a change in titles for the latter two a few years ago, while maintaining a consensus view between the three in terms of strategy and decisions made throughout these past 13 years.

 

And, if anything, the push to sign Abreu came mostly from Williams and Paddy on the scouting/talent evaluation side vs. Hahn's contracts/ROI/financial obligations expertise.

 

I would love to know who pushed the most for Melky Cabrera, in particular. And who among KW, Hahn and Ventura most actively supported keeping Flowers as the starting catcher.

[SCCWS]

The 2013 team was more Rick Hahn's than it wasn't. It wasn't like he came from another organization to inherit that mess. As Asst. General Manager, he had influence on every single individual comprising the roster that year. He also had an entire offseason beforehand to make changes to the roster, and he didn't, really, other than adding Keppinger. So I'd say he is as much to blame for that horrific '13 season as his predecessor.

 

It seems a little far fetched to me to suggest that from 2002-2012, when Kenny was GM and Hahn was Asst. GM, that somehow Kenny was solely responsible for baseball decisions made to the team during that timeframe, and that subsequent to 2012, it has all just been "The Rick Hahn Show". I think Kenny's periodic interviews suggest rather strongly that he is still very influential on any baseball decisions made. So as far as I can tell, since 2002, the White Sox have essentially been run by the trio of Reinsdorf, Williams & Hahn, with only a change in titles for the latter two a few years ago, while maintaining a consensus view between the three in terms of strategy and decisions made throughout these past 13 years.

 

I think you missed something.I would agree when Kenny was GM and Hahn AGM " it was far fetched that Kenny made all the decisions". But now Hahn is GM and Haber is AGM. So now should we not conclude it is Reisdorf, Williams, Hahn & Haber making the decisions.

Maybe Haber wanted Melky...............................

 

[Dunt]

I wonder how KW is feeling about this team after a 15-2 drubbing

[Y2Jimmy0]

I wonder how KW is feeling about this team after a 15-2 drubbing

 

 

Probably similar to how he felt before? Why would 1 bad loss sway any opinions that greatly?

[Eminor3rd]

The 2013 team was more Rick Hahn's than it wasn't. It wasn't like he came from another organization to inherit that mess. As Asst. General Manager, he had influence on every single individual comprising the roster that year. He also had an entire offseason beforehand to make changes to the roster, and he didn't, really, other than adding Keppinger. So I'd say he is as much to blame for that horrific '13 season as his predecessor.

 

It seems a little far fetched to me to suggest that from 2002-2012, when Kenny was GM and Hahn was Asst. GM, that somehow Kenny was solely responsible for baseball decisions made to the team during that timeframe, and that subsequent to 2012, it has all just been "The Rick Hahn Show". I think Kenny's periodic interviews suggest rather strongly that he is still very influential on any baseball decisions made. So as far as I can tell, since 2002, the White Sox have essentially been run by the trio of Reinsdorf, Williams & Hahn, with only a change in titles for the latter two a few years ago, while maintaining a consensus view between the three in terms of strategy and decisions made throughout these past 13 years.

 

Whichever name you want to assign to each era is fine, but there was a clear strategic shift that occurred beginning with the trade deadline in 2013, and the team is associating that with Rick Hahn's move to the primary executive role for day-to-day operations. I have no doubt that they're all involved, but the Sox have NOT conducted themselves the same way the past couple years. The most recent thread of action is the one we should be judging when considering the effect of Sox leadership currently.

[chitownsportsfan]

Solid stuff from Jim over at SSS this morning:

 

It was reported that Ventura was asked to be more hands-on with certain players but Williams said "there was a conversation that could be turned around to say that was the directive but it was more the line of question to see just how accountable we were making everyone. Each player, each coach. It’s self-evaluation.

 

"We asked Robin and the coaches, ‘What can we do in management in terms of more information, analytics in regards to positioning, lineups, personnel. What can we do to make us better? To single out one aspect misses the whole of the conversation.’’

 

 

That's a more reasonable and healthy spin on it, although when looking back at Bruce Levine's original report, it's still something that the Sox' play was so uninspiring and unsettling that it required three days of meetings. I don't have the access to know which account is closer to the unvarnished truth, but I can say this season has a strange tension to it that could result in all sorts of conflicting reports before it's over.

 

More at the link:

 

http://www.southsidesox.com/2015/6/3/87175...holding-pattern

Edited June 3, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[LDF]

Solid stuff from Jim over at SSS this morning:

 

 

 

More at the link:

 

http://www.southsidesox.com/2015/6/3/87175...holding-pattern

 

nice stuff.

 

i am looking at that i came away with 2 opinions.

 

1. the sox brass knows that RV is not getting it done and trying to help him along the way.

 

3. the sox wants to provide all they can to see which player is not getting it done, while trying to salvage this season or to decide which player to trade.

[chitownsportsfan]

The whole "meeting with RV about how to do things better" begs the f***ing question: WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG?

 

I mean, shouldn't you be going over this s*** in the spring? WTF were they doing down in Camelback anyways? It clearly didn't prepare them to start the season in any of the areas KW mentioned. There's a general aura of sloppiness around the team and it really shouldn't take a poor start to jump start people into action.

 

 

[Balta1701]

We should have just paid LaRussa or whoever the best manager available was most of our payroll to be our manager. They would have gotten drastically different results from the same players.

Then it's time to change the identity of the people making personnel decisions because we're dramatically underperforming other teams at similar payroll levels.

[Iwritecode]

I think you missed something.I would agree when Kenny was GM and Hahn AGM " it was far fetched that Kenny made all the decisions". But now Hahn is GM and Haber is AGM. So now should we not conclude it is Reisdorf, Williams, Hahn & Haber making the decisions.

Maybe Haber wanted Melky...............................

 

I was just about to ask if anyone knew who the current assistant GM was. I had no idea.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Iwritecode

[Balta1701]

Yesterday you said he should only be making public comments every couple months or so (which he is) and I asked you if you had seen anything to the contrary. You did not respond but you're still running with this narrative that he shouldn't be talking so much.

If he wants to give the impression that he's the one in control and Rick Hahn isn't, this interview did a fine job of it.

[Balta1701]

No evidence on your Kenny narrative so it's the personnel now? It seems like you're just broadening your scope so you can complain aimlessly without having to provide any substantive backing.

 

Where is this idea coming from that teams play exactly to their level of payroll? How about the teams directly above us in the payroll rank? The Reds, Mariners, Blue Jays and the Philies are all having great years, right?

The White Sox's front office: comparable in quality to the Phillies.

 

Not exactly the strongest case.

[LDF]

And, if anything, the push to sign Abreu came mostly from Williams and Paddy on the scouting/talent evaluation side vs. Hahn's contracts/ROI/financial obligations expertise.

 

I would love to know who pushed the most for Melky Cabrera, in particular. And who among KW, Hahn and Ventura most actively supported keeping Flowers as the starting catcher.

 

re Jose A. i thought i read an article provided by someone on this site, that it was Williams that was so enthuse on Jose, but he called JR and told him the good news.

 

now it was JR who came up in the contract neg.

 

i don't remember anything on Paddy. was he involve, if so why no mention of him in this article.

[Balta1701]

Yeah, I hate when Obama does that to Biden. It's like c'mon Barack, let Biden do his thing.

So Kenny Williams is the one in charge and you think he's the most important one to remove to solve this roster construction debacle.

 

I'm ok with that.

[southsider2k5]

I was just about to ask if anyone knew who the current assistant GM was. I had no idea.

 

He was promoted to the position during the off season IIRC.

[Dick Allen]

So Kenny Williams is the one in charge and you think he's the most important one to remove to solve this roster construction debacle.

 

I'm ok with that.

This guy should get fired, that guy should get fired. The Red Sox fired their pitching coach so at least their fans got that. Since you think everyone should be fired, who should be hired? What players should be acquired? Since you seem to always think you have all the answers, why don't you let us in on a few?

[Balta1701]

Nice strawman. You brought up payroll ranks. Let's try to keep our exchanges copacetic instead of jumping ship every time you find some new way to complain about the Sox.

"There are a couple teams at our payroll level slightly worse than us and one of them gave out Ryan Howard's contract" is not under any stretch of the imagination something we should be bragging about.

 

If teams at our payroll level, or even lower, can find ways to at least be competitive for several years in a row, or at least move back and forth between competitive and uncompetitive every few years, then it shouldn't be too much to ask for us to appear in the playoffs at some point again.

 

If the only defense we have for this org's failures is "see look, the worst teams in baseball are slightly worse"...well that places us among the worst run franchises in baseball too.

[Balta1701]

This guy should get fired, that guy should get fired. The Red Sox fired their pitching coach so at least their fans got that. Since you think everyone should be fired, who should be hired? What players should be acquired? Since you seem to always think you have all the answers, why don't you let us in on a few?

Can I undo the mistakes that were done last offseason? Because otherwise I have to do this with no money.

 

Since I can't do that and give this roster a chance to actually grow, clear out the garbage. Anyone who can be moved from this roster, I'm ok moving. Everyone other than Rodon. I mean that.

 

Just start over. We're going to lose for several years anyway, we may as well do so while being cheap and while building up something that can compete in the future.

[Dick Allen]

Can I undo the mistakes that were done last offseason? Because otherwise I have to do this with no money.

 

Since I can't do that and give this roster a chance to actually grow, clear out the garbage. Anyone who can be moved from this roster, I'm ok moving. Everyone other than Rodon. I mean that.

 

Just start over. We're going to lose for several years anyway, we may as well do so while being cheap and while building up something that can compete in the future.

 

The other thing, your total access to White Sox finances. Yeah they should go cheap and totally rebuild. Lose 95 games a year. I know one guy who will be around complaining the entire ride.

[Eminor3rd]

Can I undo the mistakes that were done last offseason? Because otherwise I have to do this with no money.

 

Since I can't do that and give this roster a chance to actually grow, clear out the garbage. Anyone who can be moved from this roster, I'm ok moving. Everyone other than Rodon. I mean that.

 

Just start over. We're going to lose for several years anyway, we may as well do so while being cheap and while building up something that can compete in the future.

 

We haven't even finished this LAST "start-over!" At some point, you have got to stay the course. Balta, it hasn't even been a HALF of a season yet. Melky Cabrera is not a 54 wRC+ hitter. Adam Eaton is not a 77 wRC+ hitter. Jeff Samardzija is not a 4.68 ERA pitcher. You haven't even given this roster a HALF SEASON and you're ready to clean the entire organization out.

[Balta1701]

The other thing, your total access to White Sox finances. Yeah they should go cheap and totally rebuild. Lose 95 games a year. I know one guy who will be around complaining the entire ride.

See here's the thing, when we're already losing 99, 89, and on pace for 87 games a year..."wow it would be terrible to lose 95 games a year" isn't scary at all. We're doing that.