Could the Sox get proper value in trading Sale?

[GreenSox]

If the Sox end up being non-contenders then what's the rush?

 

Too many problems to be fixed during the season for a non-contender.

 

That's why I keep saying, patience.

There is no rush. But there are times where a team is desperate and you can get extreme value making the moves at the deadline.

There are other situation where you get no value if you wait (like Shark) or limited (like had we waited on Peavy or if we wait on Alexei)

And then some positions generally have higher value at the deadline than in December, like relief pitchers.

Thus, Shark, Alexei and any relief pitcher should be moved at deadline. No hurry on anyone else, but be open for offers.

[fathom]

I wouldn't trade Sale or Abreu. Why can't Sox do what I've been advocating for a month? Trade everybody not named Sale, Abreu, Avisail? Or at least trade Melky, Shark, Robertson, Lexi, LaRoche, Duke. I guarantee you Hahn could get a ton of players for these guys. Get the right players and we might have something to look forward to next year. I think the Royals actually might take Melky after the Rios fiasco. We get Colon in a deal for Melky and Beckham or Soto and maybe we're off and running.

 

What's your obsession with Christian Colon?

 

Also, you basically want them to trade everyone they acquired this offseason. Why would you then trust them to make a good trade if you believe a lot of the new additions were bad choices?

Edited June 15, 2015 by fathom

[fathom]

They showed no patience last offseason and that's set us back at least a year, maybe more.

 

Maybe my favorite post in a while on here!!

[Jose Abreu]

If we trade Chris Sale, I probably would stop following the White Sox this season. No return is fair. Unless you're getting back proven stars, you don't trade a top five player in baseball on a ridiculously cheap contact.

[caulfield12]

Unfortunately I was one of those converts last winter. I went into the off season expecting another rebuild year and drafting more talent but in the end I bought into the idea of FA and hoping that would enough to keep the Sox in contentention. Sadly, FA has not paid off so far.

 

In the end I think the Sox have little choice but to pull some kind of rabbit out of their hat and likely will be a name people will not want to see go. And that's baseball.

 

I was going to comment on the Q thread but didn't want to derail it with Sale.

 

Call me crazy but if the point is maximum return, you trade Sale and keep Q. Q can pass for a #1 in 2016 with Rodon #2. It's quite possible that Montas, Danish and Fulmer need the 2016 season for their development to have them ready for 2017. If it's a 2016 rebuild season there would be no rush for those three at all, just keep them healthy and building up those innings in the minors, hopefully Charlotte.

 

I still prefer to keep Sale, Q and Rodon intact but I admit some talent might have to be traded to fill some holes at 3B, C, SS? 2B?.

 

I think I'd rather trade Abreu than Sale to be honest.

 

 

And who's going to pay you for 2014 Abreu, one of the top 3-5 hitters in baseball?

 

Unless you have a reason to believe he's going to be "this version" permanently, it's better to deal Quintana (or Sale).

 

Sure, you can move LaRoche to 1B next season and the maybe Avi or Cabrera to DH, but the problem is the extremely limited number of teams looking for a first baseman/DH right now (and they're going to be mostly AL teams, because of his defense). Compare that to the sheer number of teams looking for pitching.

 

For example, the Tigers could definitely use a DH if Victor Martinez isn't expected to return to form and they don't care about eating another bad contract for the following two seasons...but they don't have the talent in their system to trade, even if there was a match, and I don't think many would like the idea of Abreu being paired with Miguel Cabrera for the immediate future.

 

Essentially, then, other teams will value him as "Mark Trumbo +" whereas his intrinsic White Sox value is much higher, because he's far and away the most important hitter for the future of our offense because of his potential ability to put up MVP numbers. How are they going to easily replace those stats? It's not like 2007/2008 and there are a bunch of Carlos Quentin's or undervalued Cubans lying around to be plucked.

Edited June 15, 2015 by caulfield12

[fathom]

If we trade Chris Sale, I probably would stop following the White Sox this season. No return is fair. Unless you're getting back proven stars, you don't trade a top five player in baseball on a ridiculously cheap contact.

 

If Dodgers want to trade Joc, Seager and Urias for him....then I'm fine trading him

[greg775]

What's your obsession with Christian Colon?

 

Also, you basically want them to trade everyone they acquired this offseason. Why would you then trust them to make a good trade if you believe a lot of the new additions were bad choices?

Well, I believe Colon is a natural hitter. My desire to trade everybody the Sox acquired is do-over mode. I feel like this time Hahn might really get some good young Kris Bryant-like talent for the guys I mentioned. Notice I still want the rotation of Sale, Q, Rodon, Danks which is still the foundation. Give Hahn a chance to try again by dealing the guys I mentioned and Sox might be in business. Hahn is not a dummy. Give him another chance and he succeeds IMO! He has the pieces (big names) to work with.

[Jose Abreu]

If Dodgers want to trade Joc, Seager and Urias for him....then I'm fine trading him

Not me. I know Joc is doing well in the majors, but I wouldn't consider any of them "sure thing" prospects... in my opinion, Bryant is/was the only sure thing prospect this year. Anyway, I wouldn't trade a star in Sale for unproven prospects because you never know what can happen to the prospects, while you do know what you're going to get from Sale (and he's doing it on a very team-friendly contract, thus making him more valuable).

[caulfield12]

Well, I believe Colon is a natural hitter. My desire to trade everybody the Sox acquired is do-over mode. I feel like this time Hahn might really get some good young Kris Bryant-like talent for the guys I mentioned. Notice I still want the rotation of Sale, Q, Rodon, Danks which is still the foundation. Give Hahn a chance to try again by dealing the guys I mentioned and Sox might be in business. Hahn is not a dummy. Give him another chance and he succeeds IMO! He has the pieces (big names) to work with.

 

 

John Danks has been terrible 4 of his last 5 starts. He's done, a sunk cost that we probably won't offload until the trade deadline next season.

 

Building around him, you might as well expect 1984-1987 White Sox crowd support.

 

 

Natural hitter? Colon? He's a nice little utility player with decent (but not great) who makes very good contact but not with much pop. Think Eduardo Escobar, more than All-Star caliber.

 

Christian's a 729 OPS hitter in 5 minor league seasons (in two AA seasons he was at 699). He's the final (fourth or fifth) element of a much bigger trade, like the Royals made for Escobar and Cain. Notice the amount of control the acquiring team would have with Sale, versus the contractual status of Greinke at the time of that trade.

 

At a very minimum, you need to get two position players of that level and another starting pitcher back. Then Colon...if you believe he has the ability to be an everyday SS.

Edited June 15, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Not me. I know Joc is doing well in the majors, but I wouldn't consider any of them "sure thing" prospects... in my opinion, Bryant is/was the only sure thing prospect this year. Anyway, I wouldn't trade a star in Sale for unproven prospects because you never know what can happen to the prospects, while you do know what you're going to get from Sale (and he's doing it on a very team-friendly contract, thus making him more valuable).

 

 

Then the closest "others" are probably Buxton, Gallo and Lindor-level players.

 

Something like Buxton, Sano and Berrios.

 

That would be the equivalent of the Dodgers' trade, maybe a tick better if Buxton lives us to his topline potential and can stay healthy.

 

Another problem is we're stuck with Cabrera...that removes a lot of our flexibility.

 

In that scenario, I'd probably move Avi to DH/1B and dump LaRoche. Then Lillian would be able to return to the never-ending search for "platoon proof" LH hitting.

Edited June 15, 2015 by caulfield12

[nickofypres]

No they could not. They're not also getting value out of trading Quintana either so stop asking.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

On The Score today one of the hosts mentioned a Sale trade and said he'd be okay with a package from Houston centered around Correa. Using that basis....

 

I'd give up Sale for SS Carlos Correa, RHP Michael Feliz, OF Brett Phillips, and 2B Tony Kemp.

 

Houston has a loaded system. They are one of the few teams that could do it without blowing out their farm system.

[caulfield12]

On The Score today one of the hosts mentioned a Sale trade and said he'd be okay with a package from Houston centered around Correa. Using that basis....

 

I'd give up Sale for SS Carlos Correa, RHP Michael Feliz, OF Brett Phillips, and 2B Tony Kemp.

 

Houston has a loaded system. They are one of the few teams that could do it without blowing out their farm system.

 

 

I think they'd TRY to do it without giving up Correa, unfortunately.

 

Then the whole trade would be left at a stalemate.

 

 

Of course, they're also injecting another infielder in Bregman, Kyle Tucker, POSSIBLY Cameron's son (Top 5-10 talent) and the pitcher who beat Fulmer last night with Cal State Fullerton.

 

Unless they change the rules where those prospects can be traded before June, 2016, it's going to be difficult to make a trade with the Astros.

 

 

[SCCWS]

 

I still think Sale is a keeper and Q is the one to trade. Sale is a Top 10 pitcher in baseball, one who doesn't come along too often. Q is the next level down ( top 30 in our eyes but maybe we are prejudiced) . I think Q could bring 2 starters and obviously Sale could bring 3+. But I think Q will eventually be our #3 starter or is now and could be replaced. Maybe Fullmer is that guy in a year or two. But I am not sure we could find a number 1 to replace Sale.

[Dick Allen]

The only reason a team would trade Sale was he was going to be ultra expensive and become a free agent fairly soon. Trading him now to fill in holes would be about the dumbest thing Rick Hahn could do.

[Y2Jimmy0]

No they could not. They're not also getting value out of trading Quintana either so stop asking.

 

 

Great post. They won't get equal value for either guy. How do they get better position players? I don't know. Trading Q or Sale wouldn't be how I go about doing it though.

[Y2Jimmy0]

The only reason a team would trade Sale was he was going to be ultra expensive and become a free agent fairly soon. Trading him now to fill in holes would be about the dumbest thing Rick Hahn could do.

 

 

This is true. And there are less than 5 teams in baseball that would be capable of putting a package together and those teams would never trade those players. Boston was always the rumored team. They are so "LOADED". I don't want their overhyped bum ass prospects though. Sale is going nowhere.

[GGajewski18]

On The Score today one of the hosts mentioned a Sale trade and said he'd be okay with a package from Houston centered around Correa. Using that basis....

 

I'd give up Sale for SS Carlos Correa, RHP Michael Feliz, OF Brett Phillips, and 2B Tony Kemp.

 

Houston has a loaded system. They are one of the few teams that could do it without blowing out their farm system.

 

Switch Feliz with Lance McCullers, Phillips with Domingo Santana and Kemp with Mark Appel and maybe I think about it.

[caulfield12]

This is true. And there are less than 5 teams in baseball that would be capable of putting a package together and those teams would never trade those players. Boston was always the rumored team. They are so "LOADED". I don't want their overhyped bum ass prospects though. Sale is going nowhere.

 

 

Betts is already close to being a stud. Bogaerts hasn't quite become the star everyone projected, but he's not Middlebrooks by a longshot.

Then there's Bradley, Jr.

 

Eduardo Rodriguez (came from Baltimore for a certain Yankee LHR) looks like he could be legit. Then there's Swihart (catcher).

 

They've got a lot of pieces but no idea what to do with all of them, like Rusney Castillo.

 

 

 

So you'd ask for Moncada (probably be rejected), fall back to Swihart, Rodriguez or Henry Owens (maybe Brian Johnson), Rusney Castillo and Rafael Devers.

 

Without Moncada, Betts and now Rodriguez....not sure the White Sox would be interested.

 

[Dunt]

Betts is already close to being a stud. Bogaerts hasn't quite become the star everyone projected, but he's not Middlebrooks by a longshot.

Then there's Bradley, Jr.

 

Eduardo Rodriguez (came from Baltimore for a certain Yankee LHR) looks like he could be legit. Then there's Swihart (catcher).

 

They've got a lot of pieces but no idea what to do with all of them, like Rusney Castillo.

 

 

 

So you'd ask for Moncada (probably be rejected), fall back to Swihart, Rodriguez or Henry Owens (maybe Brian Johnson), Rusney Castillo and Rafael Devers.

 

Without Moncada, Betts and now Rodriguez....not sure the White Sox would be interested.

 

Ya that .237/.296/.381 line is truly elite....so stud, much wow.

[caulfield12]

Ya that .237/.296/.381 line is truly elite....so stud, much wow.

 

 

I'm talking about his defense, mostly. His offense has been erratic, sure.

 

Look at the WAR ratings. He'll start to jump out soon enough.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/war/leaders/_/type/...nsive/year/2015

 

He's Top 20 in the majors defensively among all players.

 

Teams are going to pay J. Heyward $100+ million for less offense and a corner instead of CF spot. Same with Alex Gordon.

 

Betts is going to be a very valuable player for them going forward. Not to mention his pittance of a salary compared to Heyward/Gordon, etc.

 

If we're going to laugh or scoff at CFers who put up an OPS around 700 while playing close to elite defense, we might as well give up trying to compete in the new era of baseball because we're going to continue to be terrible offensively AND defensively....at the very worst, if you're not going to score, you should have elite defense and pitching (both starting and relieving) in order to field a competitive team.

Edited June 15, 2015 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Betts is already close to being a stud. Bogaerts hasn't quite become the star everyone projected, but he's not Middlebrooks by a longshot.

Then there's Bradley, Jr.

 

Eduardo Rodriguez (came from Baltimore for a certain Yankee LHR) looks like he could be legit. Then there's Swihart (catcher).

 

They've got a lot of pieces but no idea what to do with all of them, like Rusney Castillo.

 

 

 

So you'd ask for Moncada (probably be rejected), fall back to Swihart, Rodriguez or Henry Owens (maybe Brian Johnson), Rusney Castillo and Rafael Devers.

 

Without Moncada, Betts and now Rodriguez....not sure the White Sox would be interested.

 

I love when you browse team prospect rankings and start talking about teams. lmao

[Dick Allen]

I'm talking about his defense, mostly. His offense has been erratic, sure.

 

Look at the WAR ratings. He'll start to jump out soon enough.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/war/leaders/_/type/...nsive/year/2015

 

He's Top 20 in the majors defensively among all players.

 

Teams are going to pay J. Heyward $100+ million for less offense and a corner instead of CF spot. Same with Alex Gordon.

 

Betts is going to be a very valuable player for them going forward. Not to mention his pittance of a salary compared to Heyward/Gordon, etc.

 

If we're going to laugh or scoff at CFers who put up an OPS around 700 while playing close to elite defense, we might as well give up trying to compete in the new era of baseball because we're going to continue to be terrible offensively AND defensively....at the very worst, if you're not going to score, you should have elite defense and pitching (both starting and relieving) in order to field a competitive team.

Betts is a 1.0 WAR player right now. So is Josh Phegley. Bogaerts is a 1.4, 7th in baseball for SS and he is 22.

[caulfield12]

I love when you browse team prospect rankings and start talking about teams. lmao

 

 

Because I'm sure you know every single team's top 30 prospects and have watched all their videos, lmao. Probably you're going to be following in the footsteps of Kevin Goldstein and Keith Law with your erudition.

 

Maybe we should just have the moderating team and the minor league "reporters" be the only ones at the site "eligible" to make comments on any player.

 

That would be a lot more fun for us to just sit back and learn from the experts.

[caulfield12]

Betts is a 1.0 WAR player right now. So is Josh Phegley. Bogaerts is a 1.4, 7th in baseball for SS and he is 22.

 

 

You just made the case we've already made a terrible trade for Jeff Samardzija...and it will only get worse in the coming years.

 

 

At any rate, Boston isn't going to trade either Betts or Bogaerts.