Could the Sox get proper value in trading Sale?

[Balta1701]

I can't understand the reality behind this. This is player who always gives you a better chance of winning. Seriously I can't find logic in this.

What's the point of having Chris Sale win a ton of games in the next few seasons for a team that is going to be older, more expensive, and weaker than the disastrous 2015 team?

 

Why is it so important for us to get to 72 wins?

 

Explain to me how this team has a path to being competitive with multiple bad contracts for players who will be aging and virtually nothing available in the minors to help over the next couple years and you'll convince me to hold onto Sale. I was in exactly your position last year saying "oh we can still wait even until 2016 with him and grow as a roster rather than trading him." Now I'm looking at this team as facing even more years of rebuilding after the 2015 disaster with virtually no hope for reinforcements over the next several years.

 

Give me a path that actually could work over the next couple years and I'll get your point. Right now I don't see it. Minor league system is bare except for a couple starting pitchers, 5 positions in the lineup are disasters, even the talented guys we have in the OF in Eaton and Garcia are struggling.

[southsider2k5]

You're the one advocating, by admission, a sub-optimal move. The burden of proof isn't on me to tell you why it's a bad idea and give an alternative, but my alternative would start with not trading Sale.

 

To the bolded, if you have a debacle, there's are all kinds of value in not turning it into a worse debacle.

 

We are supposed to believe that a franchise which can't develop position players would be better by trading a cost controlled ace pitcher for a bunch of position player prospects? Yeah, I can't do that. That is just begging for disaster.

[Balta1701]

Exactly, and trading Sale for prospects could easily turn this into a worse debacle.

 

As a comment I saw on reddit stated: "I'd rather have a guaranteed yearly Cy Young candidate than gamble on 5 top prospects - which could yield f***-all and could realistically end up yielding a group that develops into a decent position player, a 4th starter, a solid reliever and a 4th OF - a nice package but hardly worth a guy like Sale."

How is it going to be worse?

 

Is losing 95 games a year really that much worse than losing 90?

[LDF]

What's the point of having Chris Sale win a ton of games in the next few seasons for a team that is going to be older, more expensive, and weaker than the disastrous 2015 team?

 

Why is it so important for us to get to 72 wins?

 

Explain to me how this team has a path to being competitive with multiple bad contracts for players who will be aging and virtually nothing available in the minors to help over the next couple years and you'll convince me to hold onto Sale. I was in exactly your position last year saying "oh we can still wait even until 2016 with him and grow as a roster rather than trading him." Now I'm looking at this team as facing even more years of rebuilding after the 2015 disaster with virtually no hope for reinforcements over the next several years.

 

Give me a path that actually could work over the next couple years and I'll get your point. Right now I don't see it. Minor league system is bare except for a couple starting pitchers, 5 positions in the lineup are disasters, even the talented guys we have in the OF in Eaton and Garcia are struggling.

and who is to say that the sox can improve on 72 wins.... but the sox still have Sale... wow

 

[OmarComing25]

What's the point of having Chris Sale win a ton of games in the next few seasons for a team that is going to be older, more expensive, and weaker than the disastrous 2015 team?

 

Why is it so important for us to get to 72 wins?

 

Explain to me how this team has a path to being competitive with multiple bad contracts for players who will be aging and virtually nothing available in the minors to help over the next couple years and you'll convince me to hold onto Sale. I was in exactly your position last year saying "oh we can still wait even until 2016 with him and grow as a roster rather than trading him." Now I'm looking at this team as facing even more years of rebuilding after the 2015 disaster with virtually no hope for reinforcements over the next several years.

 

Give me a path that actually could work over the next couple years and I'll get your point. Right now I don't see it. Minor league system is bare except for a couple starting pitchers, 5 positions in the lineup are disasters, even the talented guys we have in the OF in Eaton and Garcia are struggling.

Who are the bad contracts? Alexei is up after this year and LaRoche and Danks are gone after next year. Even Melky is only 3 years. Robertson is a bit high but I wouldn't necessarily call it a bad contract. For next year it might make things a bit difficult but after 2016 I don't see anything that will hamper the franchise.

Edited June 18, 2015 by OmarComing25

[flavum]

Who are the bad contracts? Alexei is up after this year and LaRoche and Danks are gone after next year. Even Melky is only 3 years. Robertson is a bit high but I wouldn't necessarily call it a bad contract. For next year it might make things a bit difficult but after 2016 I don't see anything that will hamper the franchise.

 

You just made my day. Didn't realize he has a 1 mil buyout. See ya, Alexei.

[Kyyle23]

How is it going to be worse?

 

Is losing 95 games a year really that much worse than losing 90?

 

You have to think the Marlins dont really feel they got much bang for their buck out of Miggy. I feel like that is worse

[Balta1701]

Who are the bad contracts? Alexei is up after this year and LaRoche and Danks are gone after next year. Even Melky is only 3 years. Robertson is a bit high but I wouldn't necessarily call it a bad contract. For next year it might make things a bit difficult but after 2016 I don't see anything that will hamper the franchise.

Danks and Melky is enough. That's 25% of our payroll for 2016 already down the drain. How much have we complained about Danks's contract being in the way the last 2 years? We now have 2 of those for 2016.

 

Meanwhile...the guys we have who are currently "really cheap" start being less cheap. We start feeling that next year as Sale, Quintana, Abreu, get more expensive. In 2017 that trend continues. We've already got $70 million committed for 2017.

[Chisoxfn]

Danks and Melky is enough. That's 25% of our payroll for 2016 already down the drain. How much have we complained about Danks's contract being in the way the last 2 years? We now have 2 of those for 2016.

 

Meanwhile...the guys we have who are currently "really cheap" start being less cheap. We start feeling that next year as Sale, Quintana, Abreu, get more expensive. In 2017 that trend continues. We've already got $70 million committed for 2017.

But you can't just look at that side. We have Sale / Q / Abreu in 2016 who more then off-set that based upon their production. And 2016 is 1 year, I'd be concerned if we had 3 to 4 years or something like that. We are 1 year from that being removed and when you are 1 year away it is also easier to move at least a portion of that burden to another club (maybe not much, but 10% is possible). And like I've said, I can't fully put Melky in Danks range. Danks is a pure sunk cost. Melky is 2.5 months into the season and has gotten awful luck. Not saying he should be hitting .300 and being great, but his performance is better then the stats indicate and I would be stunned if these past 2 months were the player we will get the next 3 years. Not saying he'll ultimately be worth the contract but he isn't going to accumulate this negative WAR the entire contract. At least not at this stage in the process can I personally assess / come to that conclusion.

[Balta1701]

But you can't just look at that side. We have Sale / Q / Abreu in 2016 who more then off-set that based upon their production. And 2016 is 1 year, I'd be concerned if we had 3 to 4 years or something like that. We are 1 year from that being removed and when you are 1 year away it is also easier to move at least a portion of that burden to another club (maybe not much, but 10% is possible). And like I've said, I can't fully put Melky in Danks range. Danks is a pure sunk cost. Melky is 2.5 months into the season and has gotten awful luck. Not saying he should be hitting .300 and being great, but his performance is better then the stats indicate and I would be stunned if these past 2 months were the player we will get the next 3 years. Not saying he'll ultimately be worth the contract but he isn't going to accumulate this negative WAR the entire contract. At least not at this stage in the process can I personally assess / come to that conclusion.

The other side though is the number of needs we have. Assume Garcia and Eaton are decent enough players...we still are staring at needing to fill 6 different lineup positions in 2017 with, to my eyes, 0 players in the minor leagues on pace to be ready to fill those as of right now. A 2017 opening day arrival even seems early for Anderson with how he's performing at AA unless everyone is ok with 2017 being another rebuilding year.

 

The money alone wouldn't be as bad if we were holding a bunch of players who could fill those roles. We're not. That makes this a looming disaster. Business as usual for the White Sox will turn this into a completely lost decade.

[Eminor3rd]

Under normal circumstances (i.e. 2014) I would totally agree with Shys.

 

It's no longer normal circumstances. We're now staring over an abyss, that makes more drastic responses something we need to consider.

 

No we're not, lol. We're already IN a rebuild. Just because a bunch of guys are having s***ty years doesn't mean you blow up again. Samardzija will be traded or QO'd for a pick, Melky will bounce back to some degree, and Robertson and LaRoche (though the latter has been slumping recently) are fine. Eaton will bounce back.

 

Should be another eventful offseason. Fortunately it looks like Rodon is here to stay, so our top three starters are affordable and locked up. Danks has another year so that is what it is. We go into the offseason searching for a #4 starter, 3B, and C. We'll still have a bunch of strong bullpen pieces in place. Danks remains the only albatross and he's only got one more year.

[Balta1701]

No we're not, lol. We're already IN a rebuild. Just because a bunch of guys are having s***ty years doesn't mean you blow up again. Samardzija will be traded or QO'd for a pick, Melky will bounce back to some degree, and Robertson and LaRoche (though the latter has been slumping recently) are fine. Eaton will bounce back.

 

Should be another eventful offseason. Fortunately it looks like Rodon is here to stay, so our top three starters are affordable and locked up. Danks has another year so that is what it is. We go into the offseason searching for a #4 starter, 3B, and C. We'll still have a bunch of strong bullpen pieces in place. Danks remains the only albatross and he's only got one more year.

So...we've got $120 million in payroll already committed next season, more than we spent this year already, we need a new catcher, 3b, and SS (you left that out), we also need our 2b candidates to successfully develop and we need one of the worst hitters in baseball to re-find the things that made him a decent hitter that totally weren't injected. And we need to do that without being able to really add payroll because we've already got so much committed.

 

That's the path I see to a lost decade.

 

[harfman77]

We are supposed to believe that a franchise which can't develop position players would be better by trading a cost controlled ace pitcher for a bunch of position player prospects? Yeah, I can't do that. That is just begging for disaster.

 

You would need to trade him for ML or ML ready players. You can't trade Sale for A ball prospects. Thats why a team like the Red Sox would make sense with Bogaerts, Castillo, Swihart, JBJ, Betts, Cecchini, Rodriguez, Owens, and Marrero to choose from. You can make a deal work with some of those parts and also minimize the amount of projection/development required. The Dodgers are similarly situated, the Rangers could put a deal if they wanted to build around Gallo.

 

This would be akin to the Felix Hernandez trade that was discussed at the deadline in 2009 - http://nesn.com/2009/08/report-red-sox-off...elix-hernandez/

 

[LDF]

So...we've got $120 million in payroll already committed next season, more than we spent this year already, we need a new catcher, 3b, and SS (you left that out), we also need our 2b candidates to successfully develop and we need one of the worst hitters in baseball to re-find the things that made him a decent hitter that totally weren't injected. And we need to do that without being able to really add payroll because we've already got so much committed.

 

That's the path I see to a lost decade.

 

that is 120 - Aelxia salary for next yr = 110. +/-

 

btw, there is no replacement in the minors for the ss position, and i am not counting Anderson unless the sox say so.

 

 

[LDF]

No we're not, lol. We're already IN a rebuild. Just because a bunch of guys are having s***ty years doesn't mean you blow up again. Samardzija will be traded or QO'd for a pick, Melky will bounce back to some degree, and Robertson and LaRoche (though the latter has been slumping recently) are fine. Eaton will bounce back.

 

Should be another eventful offseason. Fortunately it looks like Rodon is here to stay, so our top three starters are affordable and locked up. Danks has another year so that is what it is. We go into the offseason searching for a #4 starter, 3B, and C. We'll still have a bunch of strong bullpen pieces in place. Danks remains the only albatross and he's only got one more year.

 

so that is a #4 sp and Danks being #5.

 

i still would get 2 more sp's to help. just in case of the unexpected.

[Balta1701]

so that is a #4 sp and Danks being #5.

 

i still would get 2 more sp's to help. just in case of the unexpected.

I'd imagine that Fulmer will be one of those 2 starting pitcher spots next year, at least for part of the year.

 

Also wonder if Johnson/Beck won't at least get a shot to see if they can fill a back of the rotation spot after Samardzija is gone and Rodon is shut down this year.

[caulfield12]

that is 120 - Aelxia salary for next yr = 110. +/-

 

btw, there is no replacement in the minors for the ss position, and i am not counting Anderson unless the sox say so.

 

Sounds like a new Alzheimer's drug....if only there was such a medication to erase the first two months and reboot.

 

[harfman77]

You have to think the Marlins dont really feel they got much bang for their buck out of Miggy. I feel like that is worse

 

They sure made out alright on Josh Beckett though. The package for Miggy wasn't that bad given that he was heading to arbitration at a number they couldn't afford after the season and the Marlins had no chance to re-sign him once he hit free agency. Maybin is starting to play up to his potential, Miller is now an elite level RP, and Badenhop is a serviceable big leaguer. They also were able to dump Willis' bad contract off their books. That trade was more about payroll and less about re-building.

 

 

[LDF]

Sounds like a new Alzheimer's drug....if only there was such a medication to erase the first two months and reboot.

hahaha

 

and as bad as my english is, they would be better than spelling than I....

 

damn.

[Balta1701]

They sure made out alright on Josh Beckett though. The package for Miggy wasn't that bad given that he was heading to arbitration at a number they couldn't afford after the season and the Marlins had no chance to re-sign him once he hit free agency. Maybin is starting to play up to his potential, Miller is now an elite level RP, and Badenhop is a serviceable big leaguer. They also were able to dump Willis' bad contract off their books. That trade was more about payroll and less about re-building.

So we package Sale with Melky and Danks?

[caulfield12]

So we package Sale with Melky and Danks?

 

 

Let's hope it turns out better than the Teahen/Edwin Jackson return...the last time we tried to do something like that.

[OmarComing25]

http://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/...for_chris_sale/

 

Some perspective from fans of other teams.

[shysocks]

You would need to trade him for ML or ML ready players. You can't trade Sale for A ball prospects. Thats why a team like the Red Sox would make sense with Bogaerts, Castillo, Swihart, JBJ, Betts, Cecchini, Rodriguez, Owens, and Marrero to choose from. You can make a deal work with some of those parts and also minimize the amount of projection/development required. The Dodgers are similarly situated, the Rangers could put a deal if they wanted to build around Gallo.

 

This would be akin to the Felix Hernandez trade that was discussed at the deadline in 2009 - http://nesn.com/2009/08/report-red-sox-off...elix-hernandez/

The Mariners correctly turned that trade down. Masterson and Reddick are the only guys on that list who were ever worth anything. If that's the type of package we're looking at in a Sale deal, we would NOT be better off trading him to plug all our holes. You take the best five of that list and you're barely plugging anything - your franchise is worse off. You've traded a YES! for a bunch of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

 

Add the fact that right now, Sale has performed just as well as Felix had in 2010, and has a more attractive contract than what was in place for Felix. Can we all see why this will never happen?

 

My god, it's ****ing ridiculous...

[Doc Edwards Shot]

This thread is moronic. There is NO WAY the Sox brass are going to trade Sale, arguably the best Sox pitcher in franchise history and with a cheap contract to boot. He's now the face of the franchise.

 

What they're paying for Sale is what Sox fans dream about when we haven't had an ace pitcher and needed to get one. Now that we have a Sale, we're going to trade him away just because we're down in the dumps at the moment? Give me a break.

 

I'll have to see him shopped and traded to believe it's possible.

[OmarComing25]

The Mariners correctly turned that trade down. Masterson and Reddick are the only guys on that list who were ever worth anything. If that's the type of package we're looking at in a Sale deal, we would NOT be better off trading him to plug all our holes. You take the best five of that list and you're barely plugging anything - your franchise is worse off. You've traded a YES! for a bunch of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

 

Add the fact that right now, Sale has performed just as well as Felix had in 2010, and has a more attractive contract than what was in place for Felix. Can we all see why this will never happen?

 

My god, it's ****ing ridiculous...

Yep, seeing that list made my feelings go from NO to f*** NO.