Veteran Leadership

[DashFan]

A lot was made this offseason about acquiring not only talented baseball players, but also veteran leadership. Despite this, Eaton seems to have emerged as sort of the defacto spokesman for the players. I expected more from the likes of LaRoche and Cabrera. Unfortunately the only comment I saw from either regarding the slow start was LaRoche basically rehashing the company line of "it's still early." I also remember him saying something regarding the postseason to the effect of "if the team is good enough at the end of the season, we'll be there." Which seems fine for a statistician to say, but I was extremely disappointed to hear that kind of disconnected approach from a player. These guys are supposed to provide the TWTW, not sit back and see what happens.

 

Something stinks with this team, and it's not it's the stat lines, it's the attitude of the whole org and I don't see anyone in it, including the vets we brought in, interested in changing it.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Everything is lax, or it seems that way.

[Dunt]

A lot was made this offseason about acquiring not only talented baseball players, but also veteran leadership. Despite this, Eaton seems to have emerged as sort of the defacto spokesman for the players. I expected more from the likes of LaRoche and Cabrera. Unfortunately the only comment I saw from either regarding the slow start was LaRoche basically rehashing the company line of "it's still early." I also remember him saying something regarding the postseason to the effect of "if the team is good enough at the end of the season, we'll be there." Which seems fine for a statistician to say, but I was extremely disappointed to hear that kind of disconnected approach from a player. These guys are supposed to provide the TWTW, not sit back and see what happens.

 

Something stinks with this team, and it's not it's the stat lines, it's the attitude of the whole org and I don't see anyone in it, including the vets we brought in, interested in changing it.

 

LaRoche has supposedly been pretty good in the clubhouse so far. This is Chris Sale's team though, he is the leader and a good one at that IMO. This team is just in a miserable funk and this organization as a whole just sucks. It really gets hammered home when you see how an organization like the Blackhawks is run. They seem fine with trotting out a mediocre product year after year because they are smart enough business people to always make a profit. The White Sox are comfortable because they are safe.

[DashFan]

When you watch the top teams in the league, you see a lot more energy and a sense of urgency each at-bat. It's non-existent with this team.

 

The Royals play every game as though they are still in the WS. It's a long season and I understand the argument that you have to pace yourself. I wasn't sure the Royals could maintain that over the course of the season, but here we are in June and our team taking it easy looks way more worn-down and finished than the Royals do playing high-octane every day.

[caulfield12]

I think the reason it's working pretty well (despite the loss of James Shields) for the Royals is that you do have a pretty much perfect mixture of youth and veterans.

 

Obviously, Infante's not playing very well (probably the worst overall 2B in the AL), but each clique of players has a ringleader, like we saw in 2005.

 

With the Latin players, it's Salvador Perez and now Kendrys Morales policing Escobar and especially Yordano Ventura.

 

As much as Hosmer and Moustakas are hated by many, there's the steadying presence of Alex Gordon who arrived as a regular 2-3 years earlier and gets respect as the "veteran" of the group, the vanguard of that first wave of prospects. Gordon, from all reports, work as hard as Juan Pierre on his game, always the first to arrive and the last to leave and never satisfied with all the elements of his game.

 

Then you have Lorenzo Cain doing his own thing and bringing a certain amount of swagger and confidence (just like Torii Hunter in his prime years with the Twins, but even this season again) to the entire organization with his bold style of play.

 

So just in their starting line-up, they have four really strong leaders, and that's not even counting Hosmer and Moustakas, who have big and arrogant/confident personalities as well.

 

 

What players in our starting line-up match that? Eaton? Abreu is about as bland as Ventura. Expecting Alexei to be a leader? We might as well watch paint dry. Avi kind of has that playful, big teddy bear personality, is a jokester and prankster, but there just aren't enough position players who can be counted on right now. Catcher is perhaps the most important position on the field and we have Tyler Flowers...who is having a hard enough time for the last two years holding his position to be considered a leader. Beckham has a personality, but he's failed so many times offensively he can't be the leader except in granting interview requests, and Conor is even more boring and vanilla than both Ventura and Abreu somehow. Last year it was cute, this year it's symptomatic of the overall team malaise.

 

Then there's the growing disappointment with Samardzija's performance as well as his leadership abilities (so far). Very little out of LaRoche and Cabrera's almost non-existent.

Edited June 16, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I think the reason it's working pretty well (despite the loss of James Shields) for the Royals is that you do have a pretty much perfect mixture of youth and veterans.

 

Obviously, Infante's not playing very well (probably the worst overall 2B in the AL), but each clique of players has a ringleader, like we saw in 2005.

 

With the Latin players, it's Salvador Perez and now Kendrys Morales policing Escobar and especially Yordano Ventura.

 

As much as Hosmer and Moustakas are hated by many, there's the steadying presence of Alex Gordon who arrived as a regular 2-3 years earlier and gets respect as the "veteran" of the group, the vanguard of that first wave of prospects. Gordon, from all reports, work as hard as Juan Pierre on his game, always the first to arrive and the last to leave and never satisfied with all the elements of his game.

 

Then you have Lorenzo Cain doing his own thing and bringing a certain amount of swagger and confidence (just like Torii Hunter in his prime years with the Twins, but even this season again) to the entire organization with his bold style of play.

 

So just in their starting line-up, they have four really strong leaders, and that's not even counting Hosmer and Moustakas, who have big and arrogant/confident personalities as well.

 

 

What players in our starting line-up match that? Eaton? Abreu is about as bland as Ventura. Expecting Alexei to be a leader? We might as well watch paint dry. Avi kind of has that playful, big teddy bear personality, is a jokester and prankster, but there just aren't enough position players who can be counted on right now. Catcher is perhaps the most important position on the field and we have Tyler Flowers...who is having a hard enough time for the last two years holding his position to be considered a leader. Beckham has a personality, but he's failed so many times offensively he can't be the leader except in granting interview requests, and Conor is even more boring and vanilla than both Ventura and Abreu somehow. Last year it was cute, this year it's symptomatic of the overall team malaise.

 

Then there's the growing disappointment with Samardzija's performance as well as his leadership abilities (so far). Very little out of LaRoche and Cabrera's almost non-existent.

 

This is all a bunch of BS. You don't know the leadership structure of either the White Sox or Royals. Abreu bland, Kendrys Morales policing everyone? LMAO. Get real.

 

[caulfield12]

This is all a bunch of BS. You don't know the leadership structure of either the White Sox or Royals. Abreu bland, Kendrys Morales policing everyone? LMAO. Get real.

 

 

Once again, obfuscation. Obfuscation. Obfuscation.

 

Why don't you address the question, then...which is that there APPEARS to be a lack of immediacy or sense of urgency from this team.

 

How do you explain this team getting absolutely hammered by opponents in the early innings?

 

If it's not leadership, it's not preparation, it's not coaching...then what is it? All the White Sox players are "mentally weak" and the front office doesn't know how to put together a cohesive and proverbial "sum of all the parts is greater than the individual numbers" team?

 

 

With Ventura, I should also add Mark Guthrie...who always serves as his "unofficial" translator for post-game interviews.

Edited June 16, 2015 by caulfield12

[JoshPR]

LOL

[JoshPR]

I think you meant jeremy guthrie

[Dick Allen]

Once again, obfuscation. Obfuscation. Obfuscation.

 

Why don't you address the question, then...which is that there APPEARS to be a lack of immediacy or sense of urgency from this team.

 

How do you explain this team getting absolutely hammered by opponents in the early innings?

 

If it's not leadership, it's not preparation, it's not coaching...then what is it? All the White Sox players are "mentally weak" and the front office doesn't know how to put together a cohesive and proverbial "sum of all the parts is greater than the individual numbers" team?

 

 

With Ventura, I should also add Mark Guthrie...who always serves as his "unofficial" translator for post-game interviews.

How do you know there is a lack of urgency? Did you read it on a message board? The fact is, your favorite team and model organization hasn't been all that great the last couple of months. I guess their leadership or coaching or something must be lacking. The leadership crap is just like the chemistry argument. Konerko was a great leader in 2005. When the team is bad in 2013, where is the leadership. You can have great leaders, that doesn't mean you will win more games than you lose. Have you ever even played a baseball game or any game for that matter? Does the team with the best coach usually win? Or is it the team with the best leaders? Or is it the team with the best players? Or is it the team with the best performers? I'll go with the last one.

[ChiSox59]

Everything is lax, or it seems that way.

 

This is sorta my thoughts. At what point do the Sox need someone who will light a fire under their collective asses when they don't show up??

[Dick Allen]

Didn't Eaton get into it with Parent the other day? Yeah, totally lax.

[flavum]

I don't know what the hell is going on in the clubhouse, but hopefully after this season they can take a long look at what they've been doing wrong for 7-8 years, and make some really aggressive moves with front office people, the coaching staff, and players on the team. This organization is a joke from top to bottom right now.

[DashFan]

We don't get to see everything that goes on behind the scenes. We get glimpses through comments in the media and a brief view into the personalities of the players and how they behave in the dugout. The lack of urgency and overall malaise this team has matches the personalities and even some of the comments the players have made to the media.

 

Dick, you don't think performance is tied to intangibles, and it's your right to believe that. I would argue that it does and it's visible not just with the Royals but with other teams throughout the league who are doing well. I don't think that difference in overall energy starts with performance, I think it starts with the mentality of the team and it may be too late to change that this season with this particular cast of characters.

Edited June 16, 2015 by DashFan

[harkness99]

The entire coaching staff needs to be rebooted...

 

If the players are just as garbage after the reboot.... then we will know its all on the players and can move on from there.

 

But something drastic needs to be done soon... or its going to be too late to matter.

 

 

To me I honestly see the players doing the same mistakes over and over...

 

Giving away at bats... not being professional hitters or fielders.

 

I can't say who is to blame for sure- but there are ways to find out.

Edited June 16, 2015 by harkness

[Dick Allen]

We don't get to see everything that goes on behind the scenes. We get glimpses through comments in the media and a brief view into the personalities of the players and how they behave in the dugout. The lack of urgency and overall malaise this team has matches the personalities and even some of the comments the players have made to the media.

 

Dick, you don't think performance is tied to intangibles, and it's your right to believe that. I would argue that it does and it's visible not just with the Royals but with other teams throughout the league who are doing well. I don't think that difference in overall energy starts with performance, I think it starts with the mentality of the team and it may be too late to change that this season with this particular cast of characters.

Sure there are some, but one thing is we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. When you want to believe Robin is totally lax, you ignore the shouting matches reported with Sale. You ignore the dust up Parent had with Eaton just the other day. The team is deflated. There is no question about that. Tampa was a disaster. Last night was a disaster. Before that, they seemed to be coming around a bit. Of course this has happened several times before. The lax part just isn't true. The Royals were losing more games than they were winning. Again, I think leaders are leaders. If the exact same dynamic was occurring in the clubhouse if the Sox were 10 games over as is occurring now, these guys would be considered great leaders. We don't know what goes on in any clubhouse, and the snippets we do get suggest it is far from the lax country club atmosphere apparently someone wants to make basing it on a W-L record and a manager that doesn't scream at players in the dugout.

[harkness99]

Sure there are some, but one thing is we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. When you want to believe Robin is totally lax, you ignore the shouting matches reported with Sale. You ignore the dust up Parent had with Eaton just the other day. The team is deflated. There is no question about that. Tampa was a disaster. Last night was a disaster. Before that, they seemed to be coming around a bit. Of course this has happened several times before. The lax part just isn't true. The Royals were losing more games than they were winning. Again, I think leaders are leaders. If the exact same dynamic was occurring in the clubhouse if the Sox were 10 games over as is occurring now, these guys would be considered great leaders. We don't know what goes on in any clubhouse, and the snippets we do get suggest it is far from the lax country club atmosphere apparently someone wants to make basing it on a W-L record and a manager that doesn't scream at players in the dugout.

 

It's the lax attitude on the field and at the plate... the clubhouse - yeah we can't know that for sure.

 

But its not unreasonable for people to see lax play has a lax attitude from the clubhouse.. its only been seen in every major sport.

[hogan873]

You can always tell when the season is not going well when every thread devolves into arguing. This one is no exception. But I think we can all agree that something is broken. There does not seem to be any fire in this team. Eaton reportedly getting into it with Parent is not the fire the team needs. The team as a whole needs a wake-up call.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that the Royals play each game lilke it's the World Series, and I agree. You see the fire and the passion. I found myself hating the Royals this year because of their attitude, but now I'm starting to realize that maybe attitude is what the Sox need. Right now they have no attitude except that they roll over.

 

Something has to change...and soon.

[DashFan]

Dick, you make some valid points but I also think that pointing to the argument with Eaton and one earlier in the season with Sale is really cherry picking. You could just as easily pick moments that I identified that represented a lack of urgency. I don't think that's what we are looking for. Eaton being upset over playing time is one thing. I want to see guys a little more upset over the season going down the tubes. I want Eaton to say that playing time has to be earned. If everybody on this team wants to play so bad I want the coaching staff to remind them they need to earn that playing time a little more often too. I was kind of bothered that Eaton was so outspoken and whiny about being benched.

Edited June 16, 2015 by DashFan

[harkness99]

I disagree with nearly everything about Eaton... to me its symptomatic of how done this staff is..

 

Eaton has made some mistakes and hasn't hit as well as last year.

 

But to me is one of the FEW guys that actually plays like he cares.

 

So you have 20 zombies but the coaches go after the one guy with a pulse.

 

It's a joke.

[Kyyle23]

You can always tell when the season is not going well when every thread devolves into arguing. This one is no exception. But I think we can all agree that something is broken. There does not seem to be any fire in this team. Eaton reportedly getting into it with Parent is not the fire the team needs. The team as a whole needs a wake-up call.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that the Royals play each game lilke it's the World Series, and I agree. You see the fire and the passion. I found myself hating the Royals this year because of their attitude, but now I'm starting to realize that maybe attitude is what the Sox need. Right now they have no attitude except that they roll over.

 

Something has to change...and soon.

 

yea, but the same thing happened in 05. What it comes down to is that we all love to argue

[GreatScott82]

This team needs a complete overhaul from the coaching staff, scouting department and front office. This team has been bad for 7 years now. The farm is not that good and other than Abreu and Garcia, this offense is pathetic. The 3b, 2b and C positions have been a nightmare for awhile now and I'm tired of accepting a horse crap product. They say White Sox fans will not tolerate a 3 year losing window or "rebuild", I think that is also crap. If management lays out an actual plan or direction for this team, I'd say most fans would definitely embrace a full out rebuild. Theo and the Cubs made it clear that they were essentially losing on purpose to build a team full of young talent that will be loaded with prospects. Although most thought it was a pathetic approach, it's kind of hard to ignore how impactful their young talent has been on the field this year. The fact of the matter is, they went on a full blown rebuild and it has paid off. They lost on purpose for 4 straight seasons under Epstein. I'm thinking for the White Sox, they can probably do a successful rebuild in 3 seasons:

2015- sell off veterans and acquire the best prospects possible. Earn another high draft pick. Fire Robin and staff at seasons end. Overhaul scouting departments. Hire a quality manager and staff outside the organization. Consider trading assets if you can get a load of talent back.

2016- give some prospects a chance to play, continue to sell off veterans for prospects, earn more top draft picks.

2017- give prospects more playing time, start seeing progress within minors and major league squad. Obtain yet another high draft pick.

2018- the white sox are back! Fans see direction, are happy and you actually have a chance at sustained success. Turn into buyers and actually start competing annually with a tremendous core of young talent.

[Dick Allen]

Dick, you make some valid points but I also think that pointing to the argument with Eaton and one earlier in the season with Sale is really cherry picking. You could just as easily pick moments that I identified that represented a lack of urgency. I don't think that's what we are looking for. Eaton being upset over playing time is one thing. I want to see guys a little more upset over the season going down the tubes. I want Eaton to say that playing time has to be earned. If everybody on this team wants to play so bad I want the coaching staff to remind them they need to earn that playing time a little more often too. I was kind of bothered that Eaton was so outspoken and whiny about being benched.

This thread is about veteran leadership, and it is ripping the White Sox and praising the Royals. Yet there is Ventura on the Royals, he of the multiple ejections, a suspension, John Danks' stats, why is that good leadership? People got mad at Sale and Samardjiza for their roles in the fight, so damned if you do, damned if you don't. I just think a lot of people are taking liberties with Robin Ventura's personality, and believing they know exactly what goes down in the clubhouse, and with meetings with Hahn and KW. KW is still there, like him or hate him, one thing he isn't and wouldn't tolerate is being "lax". The White Sox are just playing lousy baseball. Sometimes the reason a team sucks is as simple as that.

[caulfield12]

How do you know there is a lack of urgency? Did you read it on a message board? The fact is, your favorite team and model organization hasn't been all that great the last couple of months. I guess their leadership or coaching or something must be lacking. The leadership crap is just like the chemistry argument. Konerko was a great leader in 2005. When the team is bad in 2013, where is the leadership. You can have great leaders, that doesn't mean you will win more games than you lose. Have you ever even played a baseball game or any game for that matter? Does the team with the best coach usually win? Or is it the team with the best leaders? Or is it the team with the best players? Or is it the team with the best performers? I'll go with the last one.

 

 

Gee, no, I've never played sports before, lmao.

 

Many White Sox insiders have noted time and time again that the team was never quite the same after the losses of Rowand, Everett and eventually Juan Uribe and Mark Buehrle.

 

 

Yes, we've heard time and time as well that the 1970's Yankees players hated most of their teammates but they came together and won because they had the most talent, blah blah blah.

 

Well, the fact of the matter is that there's a TON of parity in MLB today...and when the margin of talent differentiation is lowered, leadership becomes a more important factor in a team's success.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Gee, no, I've never played sports before, lmao.

 

Many White Sox insiders have noted time and time again that the team was never quite the same after the losses of Rowand, Everett and eventually Juan Uribe and Mark Buehrle.

 

 

Yes, we've heard time and time as well that the 1970's Yankees players hated most of their teammates but they came together and won because they had the most talent, blah blah blah.

 

Well, the fact of the matter is that there's a TON of parity in MLB today...and when the margin of talent differentiation is lowered, leadership becomes a more important factor in a team's success.

Explain the Royals' treasure trove of leaders' terrific job with Yordano Ventura.