Veteran Leadership

[caulfield12]

This thread is about veteran leadership, and it is ripping the White Sox and praising the Royals. Yet there is Ventura on the Royals, he of the multiple ejections, a suspension, John Danks' stats, why is that good leadership? People got mad at Sale and Samardjiza for their roles in the fight, so damned if you do, damned if you don't. I just think a lot of people are taking liberties with Robin Ventura's personality, and believing they know exactly what goes down in the clubhouse, and with meetings with Hahn and KW. KW is still there, like him or hate him, one thing he isn't and wouldn't tolerate is being "lax". The White Sox are just playing lousy baseball. Sometimes the reason a team sucks is as simple as that.

 

 

If there's this continuous process of improvement on the part of KW and Rick Hahn...then why hasn't ANYTHING been done about 2B or the catching position? About John Danks? If he wouldn't have wasted all that "small change" money on Keppinger, Downs and Bonifacio, we could just eat that contract and move on.

 

KW once said that he dreamed of going out and winning another World Series...of taking the city away from the Cubs, etc. I'm not sure where you get the idea he's working harder than ever, because some of the complacency (and hubris) that affected Ozzie as manager has got into the bloodstream of Williams as well. He's gotten stale and the game has passed him by, the whole revolution of advanced data and analysis just isn't his thing.

Edited June 16, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Explain the Royals' treasure trove of leaders' terrific job with Yordano Ventura.

 

 

A minute ago you said only talent counted.

 

The only thing that matters is what Ventura does the 30-32 times per season he takes the mound.

 

 

I could give you the links to numerous articles, but you've already made up your mind so there's no point in even trying because I'm sure you wouldn't read them and would continue to make this about the Royals and not the White Sox...which is yet another distraction from the real issue.

[Dick Allen]

If there's this continuous process of improvement on the part of KW and Rick Hahn...then why hasn't ANYTHING been done about 2B or the catching position? About John Danks? If he wouldn't have wasted all that "small change" money on Keppinger, Downs and Bonifacio, we could just eat that contract and move on.

 

KW once said that he dreamed of going out and winning another World Series...of taking the city away from the Cubs, etc. I'm not sure where you get the idea he's working harder than ever, because some of the complacency (and hubris) that affected Ozzie as manager has got into the bloodstream of Williams as well. He's gotten stale and the game has passed him by, the whole revolution of advanced data and analysis just isn't his thing.

I don't like KW, but you again are writing fiction.

 

You may actually want to do some research. KW has been using advanced stats well before you started using the ESPN.com numbers as gospel.

[Dick Allen]

A minute ago you said only talent counted.

 

The only thing that matters is what Ventura does the 30-32 times per season he takes the mound.

 

 

Put all the links on here from the fluff kc.com for everyone to read. You were the one that mentioned the Royals, as you do daily. I could give you the links to numerous articles, but you've already made up your mind so there's no point in even trying because I'm sure you wouldn't read them and would continue to make this about the Royals and not the White Sox...which is yet another distraction from the real issue.

I said performance, it's spelled a little differently and has a different definition but ....And so far Ventura has performed a lot more like John Danks than a talented guy who supposedly has all these terrific leaders doing a great job showing him the way.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

I don't like KW, but you again are writing fiction.

 

You may actually want to do some research. KW has been using advanced stats well before you started using the ESPN.com numbers as gospel.

 

 

Examples?

 

In the last 7-8 years (after the Quentin/Ramirez/Danks/Floyd acquisitions), there have been just a few excellent players added to the organization. There's Chris Sale, Abreu and Rodon kind of fell into their laps.

 

If you can convince anyone that KW used advanced stats to identify either one of those players...well, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Earlier, you asked me how much time I've spent playing sports. How much time has Rick Hahn? I'm not the issue to be solved for the White Sox front office, it's talent identification and development that are on trial here.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

It's the lax attitude on the field and at the plate... the clubhouse - yeah we can't know that for sure.

 

But its not unreasonable for people to see lax play has a lax attitude from the clubhouse.. its only been seen in every major sport.

 

This is said for one reason, and one reason only. The fans on TV don't see someone screaming at someone else. This era of sports is pretty well gone. This stuff is done behind close doors now so that the meatball fans don't make it into some huge deal when it happens.

[SCCWS]

John Farrell is on very thin ice in Boston. Some media think it is a waste to fire him now but he will be gone by end of season. He won a World Series two years ago w some of these same players. Now he has had 2 lousy years. I don't think his personality changed. I don't think leaders like Ortiz, Pedroia and Napoli have changed. Basically the 2013 team performed and the last two years the team w changes has not. Maybe the GM takes a hit as well since they spent a ton and may end up just as bad as the White Sox.

 

The good thing is I think Hahn might be able to scoop some young talent from them since Boston will be desperate for pitching. Hopefully they don't take Hamels and are in market for a young pitcher, Q, in the off-season.

 

Mmaybe we need more of these types:

 

 

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/pr...4da4411660.html

Edited June 16, 2015 by SCCWS

[GreatScott82]

Examples?

 

In the last 7-8 years (after the Quentin/Ramirez/Danks/Floyd acquisitions), there have been just a few excellent players added to the organization. There's Chris Sale, Abreu and Rodon kind of fell into their laps.

 

If you can convince anyone that KW used advanced stats to identify either one of those players...well, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Earlier, you asked me how much time I've spent playing sports. How much time has Rick Hahn? I'm not the issue to be solved for the White Sox front office, it's talent identification and development that are on trial here.

Well said!

[Dick Allen]

Examples?

 

In the last 7-8 years (after the Quentin/Ramirez/Danks/Floyd acquisitions), there have been just a few excellent players added to the organization. There's Chris Sale, Abreu and Rodon kind of fell into their laps.

 

If you can convince anyone that KW used advanced stats to identify either one of those players...well, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Earlier, you asked me how much time I've spent playing sports. How much time has Rick Hahn? I'm not the issue to be solved for the White Sox front office, it's talent identification and development that are on trial here.

I don't know why he would need to prove he used advanced stats to sign Jose Abreu. He was the one that got him. Put here is a guy that has been with the Sox for 27 years who apparently you have never heard of.

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/white-...ball-operations

[caulfield12]

I said performance, it's spelled a little differently and has a different definition but ....And so far Ventura has performed a lot more like John Danks than a talented guy who supposedly has all these terrific leaders doing a great job showing him the way.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/le...ric/order/false

 

29th out of 56 vs. 47th for John Danks.

 

Okay.

 

WHIP. Ventura 31st, Danks 54th out of 56.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/le...ric/order/false

 

29th out of 56 vs. 47th for John Danks.

 

Okay.

 

WHIP. Ventura 31st, Danks 54th out of 56.

4.68 ERA with supposedly the best defense in baseball behind him. Is he living up to his talent level? Where is the leadership?

[caulfield12]

I don't know why he would need to prove he used advanced stats to sign Jose Abreu. He was the one that got him. Put here is a guy that has been with the Sox for 27 years who apparently you have never heard of.

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/white-...ball-operations

 

 

Gee, I've written of posts referring to both him and Jeremy Haber, but apparently you missed those.

 

ONCE AGAIN, YOU'RE SAYING THAT KW IS PROFICIENT WITH ADVANCED METRICS. Where is this coming from?

 

Because every team in baseball now has 2-3 guys in their front office who concentrate on that area...not to mention all the guys hired from Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus, fangraphs, etc.?

 

 

As Balta has pointed out over and over and over again, the pitching isn't the problem over the last decade, it's the hitting. How is KW using advanced metrics to bring better hitters into the organization?

[caulfield12]

4.68 ERA with supposedly the best defense in baseball behind him. Is he living up to his talent level? Where is the leadership?

 

 

I'm giving up on this thread and going to bed because there's really no point.

 

Back to White Sox leadership issues.

[Dick Allen]

Gee, I've written of posts referring to both him and Jeremy Haber, but apparently you missed those.

 

ONCE AGAIN, YOU'RE SAYING THAT KW IS PROFICIENT WITH ADVANCED METRICS. Where is this coming from?

 

Because every team in baseball now has 2-3 guys in their front office who concentrate on that area...not to mention all the guys hired from Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus, fangraphs, etc.?

 

 

As Balta has pointed out over and over and over again, the pitching isn't the problem over the last decade, it's the hitting. How is KW using advanced metrics to bring better hitters into the organization?

KW has had the advanced stats guys there since day 1, you are the one insinuating he has had none, and that none of the things he did, which includes a World Championship team, use advanced numbers, which is total BS.

Balta failed to mention that the years where the White Sox were terrible, which contributed to about 80 games below .500, their pitching was awful. When the won the WS, the thing everyone wants, they were a top pitching team, and middle of the road to below average overall offensively.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Balta failed to mention that the years where the White Sox were terrible, which contributed to about 80 games below .500, their pitching was awful. When the won the WS, the thing everyone wants, they were a top pitching team, and middle of the road to below average overall offensively.

And they were also a solid (not great but above average) fielding team.

 

We don't have a problem with being too good on pitching. We have a problem in that we're terrible everywhere else and we have no resources with which to become non-terrible other than the pitching and no hope of becoming non-terrible in those aspects of the game in the near future unless we use the pitching to do so.

[fathom]

You could have Derek Jeter leading this team with the greatest manager of all time (Bobby Heenan), and they still would suck. When probably 80-90% of your roster is underachieving, you're not going to win a lot of games.

[Balta1701]

You could have Derek Jeter leading this team with the greatest manager of all time (Bobby Heenan), and they still would suck. When probably 80-90% of your roster is underachieving, you're not going to win a lot of games.

Just to point out again...this massive of a failure does not happen randomly over an entire MLB season. If that's the case (and I'm not sure it is), then there is a systematic problem with something other than the talent on the field. That could be leadership, that could be preparation, that could be something else...but that does not happen to an entire roster by chance.

[southsider2k5]

Just to point out again...this massive of a failure does not happen randomly over an entire MLB season. If that's the case (and I'm not sure it is), then there is a systematic problem with something other than the talent on the field. That could be leadership, that could be preparation, that could be something else...but that does not happen to an entire roster by chance.

 

Key point here.

[Balta1701]

Key point here.

Just keep holding out that hope. When its incorrect I'll expect you to join me in calling for much larger changes.

[fathom]

Just to point out again...this massive of a failure does not happen randomly over an entire MLB season. If that's the case (and I'm not sure it is), then there is a systematic problem with something other than the talent on the field. That could be leadership, that could be preparation, that could be something else...but that does not happen to an entire roster by chance.

 

It could if the talent level is mediocre due to age and/or regression. There are legitimately 5 players on the team right now that could easily be DFA'd/demoted based on their performance (Danks, Noesi, Bonifacio, Flowers, Sanchez).

[Balta1701]

It could if the talent level is mediocre due to age and/or regression. There are legitimately 5 players on the team right now that could easily be DFA'd/demoted based on their performance (Danks, Noesi, Bonifacio, Flowers, Sanchez).

If that's the case then they're not "underachieving", they're a terrifically poorly assembled team and a gigantic waste of money and development time.

[fathom]

If that's the case then they're not "underachieving", they're a terrifically poorly assembled team and a gigantic waste of money and development time.

 

This is looking very possible, and again I love your point about how their lack of patience set them back in a big way. I think some of the players have significantly regressed, but they're still underachieving (for example, Alexei not only has lost bat speed and range, but he's making stupid defensive plays as well).

[caulfield12]

Just to point out again...this massive of a failure does not happen randomly over an entire MLB season. If that's the case (and I'm not sure it is), then there is a systematic problem with something other than the talent on the field. That could be leadership, that could be preparation, that could be something else...but that does not happen to an entire roster by chance.

 

It's the curse of any team with a "process" going against the White Sox.

 

The Royals, the Cubs, the Astros...and the Twins with Terry Ryan once again are putting together one of the most impressive collections of young talent in the game.

 

When the Tigers can outspend you by 25-30%, the Twins have you beat on the development front, the Royals with their bullpen/speed/defense combination...you better damn well find a competitive niche somewhere. Heck, the Indians even have their thing, which is their starting rotation depth.

 

For the White Sox, it has been Cubans, Don Cooper, our training/conditioning staff limiting DL time and our propensity to find pots of gold under the rainbows of Chris Sale, Carlos Rodon and now Fulmer (pitchers with questionable mechanics).

[GreatScott82]

And they were also a solid (not great but above average) fielding team.

 

We don't have a problem with being too good on pitching. We have a problem in that we're terrible everywhere else and we have no resources with which to become non-terrible other than the pitching and no hope of becoming non-terrible in those aspects of the game in the near future unless we use the pitching to do so.

Well said!

In 2013 Hahn traded Peavy, Santiago and Reed in attempt to shore up some of our lack of position player depth within the organization.

In 2015, look for Hahn to do the exact thing with Samardzija and possibly even Quintana. Why do we have to keep trading pitching? Because it's the one area this organization has that is not bad and other teams desire.

 

If we look back to 2013, Hahn barely got anything for Rios, couldn't give Dunn away and got marbles for De Aza and Beckham last year. It's pretty sad to realize we have very few position player assets on the MLB roster AND down in the farm. The even more discouraging part about this is it's been this way for a long while now.

[hogan873]

You could have Derek Jeter leading this team with the greatest manager of all time (Bobby Heenan), and they still would suck. When probably 80-90% of your roster is underachieving, you're not going to win a lot of games.

You'd have to have Jimmy "The Mouth of the South" Hart as your bench coach, Paul Bearer as first base coach, Lou Albano at third, and Jim Cornette as the hitting coach.