My view on managers in general- RV in particular

[gosox41]

I'll try to keep this short and to the point.

 

Most managers are hired to be fired. Unless you have one of the top 3-4 managers in the game, it's basically a crap shoot on hiring and firing these guys. It is almost impossible to quantify a manager's effect on a team. Making the baseball decisions is the easy part. Who bats first, when do you pinch hit. There are no guarantees in it so you just play the odds with the occasional hunch and hope for the best. In this day and age, a computer can be programmed with the various variables to make the in game decisions.

 

A manager's biggest job is handling the personnel and having them ready and motivated to play. Whether it's working on defense before every game or stressing certain aspects of the game that need attention. They also need to keep the players focused and ready to go. Sure, it's the players job to be ready, but managers definitely serve a purpose in the MAN part of managing.

 

Since every season the personnel changes, injuries happen, and managers are hired in to situations where they have an old team in decline or a young team on the upswing it is impossible to quantify their effect on how many wins or losses they add.

 

But there are signs a manager isn't doing his job:

1. When the players look flat.

2. If the personnel changes turns over a lot and the team is still showing the same flaws (ie poor defense, no patience at the plate, etc.)

3. If management has to come in and ask the manager to be more involved in the day to day player activity and be more hands on.

4. When the talent level on the team is clearly improved but to no avail.

5. When you see the same results year in and year out.

 

 

That being said, it's time for Robin to go. I don't give a crap if he shows expressions during a game or not. I do care about the 5 points I mentioned above.

 

And to take this one step further, I don't blame Hahn. We all know KW has power and is Rick's boss and Robin's indirect boss. We also all know that KW hired RV. And who came out and was his biggest defender last month? KW again. I don't know what test Robin scored so high on to be a "leader of men" but it ain't working. The Sox need to now go the opposite direction and bring in more of a butt kicker. Preferable someone from outside the organization. That's the problem when you hire a former player who the fans love. You get lots of leeway. It also makes it that much harder for management to fire you.

 

Do I have any suggestions on who the next manager should be? No. Someone respected (like a Torborg) who is also a bit of a butt kicker and isn't going to tolerate lackidasical play. Right about now (realistically not being sarcastic and saying bring in average Joe Fan) I don't care who they bring in because it can't get any worse then this. Get someone in here to shake things up.

 

This goes back to why, if I were a team owner, I'd hire proven managers with track records of winning. If I were going to go cheap and inexperienced, I'd give them 2-3 years and the ship them out of I am still seeing the 5 points I mentioned above. Maybe I am oversimplifying, but what is going on this season is unacceptable. Fan favorite or not, Robin needs to go. Even if it's for the logic of you can't fire 25 players so fire the manager. Whatever rationalization works as long as change is made.

 

Until this happens, we'll be having a lot more threads about the top 10 pick we'll have in the draft next year.

 

I'd fire Robin tonight. We know that's not going to happen. If the Sox look like they're playing corpseball tomorrow, I don't see how they can bring Robin back here at all. But we all no that it's not going to happen. We'll have loyalty and stubborness shoved up our kiesters by JR and KW. If they cared about winning they'd do something NOW.

 

 

Bob

 

 

[caulfield12]

I'll try to keep this short and to the point.

 

Most managers are hired to be fired. Unless you have one of the top 3-4 managers in the game, it's basically a crap shoot on hiring and firing these guys. It is almost impossible to quantify a manager's effect on a team. Making the baseball decisions is the easy part. Who bats first, when do you pinch hit. There are no guarantees in it so you just play the odds with the occasional hunch and hope for the best. In this day and age, a computer can be programmed with the various variables to make the in game decisions.

 

A manager's biggest job is handling the personnel and having them ready and motivated to play. Whether it's working on defense before every game or stressing certain aspects of the game that need attention. They also need to keep the players focused and ready to go. Sure, it's the players job to be ready, but managers definitely serve a purpose in the MAN part of managing.

 

Since every season the personnel changes, injuries happen, and managers are hired in to situations where they have an old team in decline or a young team on the upswing it is impossible to quantify their effect on how many wins or losses they add.

 

But there are signs a manager isn't doing his job:

1. When the players look flat.

2. If the personnel changes turns over a lot and the team is still showing the same flaws (ie poor defense, no patience at the plate, etc.)

3. If management has to come in and ask the manager to be more involved in the day to day player activity and be more hands on.

4. When the talent level on the team is clearly improved but to no avail.

5. When you see the same results year in and year out.

 

 

That being said, it's time for Robin to go. I don't give a crap if he shows expressions during a game or not. I do care about the 5 points I mentioned above.

 

And to take this one step further, I don't blame Hahn. We all know KW has power and is Rick's boss and Robin's indirect boss. We also all know that KW hired RV. And who came out and was his biggest defender last month? KW again. I don't know what test Robin scored so high on to be a "leader of men" but it ain't working. The Sox need to now go the opposite direction and bring in more of a butt kicker. Preferable someone from outside the organization. That's the problem when you hire a former player who the fans love. You get lots of leeway. It also makes it that much harder for management to fire you.

 

Do I have any suggestions on who the next manager should be? No. Someone respected (like a Torborg) who is also a bit of a butt kicker and isn't going to tolerate lackidasical play. Right about now (realistically not being sarcastic and saying bring in average Joe Fan) I don't care who they bring in because it can't get any worse then this. Get someone in here to shake things up.

 

This goes back to why, if I were a team owner, I'd hire proven managers with track records of winning. If I were going to go cheap and inexperienced, I'd give them 2-3 years and the ship them out of I am still seeing the 5 points I mentioned above. Maybe I am oversimplifying, but what is going on this season is unacceptable. Fan favorite or not, Robin needs to go. Even if it's for the logic of you can't fire 25 players so fire the manager. Whatever rationalization works as long as change is made.

 

Until this happens, we'll be having a lot more threads about the top 10 pick we'll have in the draft next year.

 

I'd fire Robin tonight. We know that's not going to happen. If the Sox look like they're playing corpseball tomorrow, I don't see how they can bring Robin back here at all. But we all no that it's not going to happen. We'll have loyalty and stubborness shoved up our kiesters by JR and KW. If they cared about winning they'd do something NOW.

 

 

Bob

 

 

There are LOTS of White Sox fans out there like yourself "lying dormant" but who still care deeply and passionately about their favorite team and are upset/frustrated/bordering on furious with the current direction of things.

 

Good post. Obviously there are some who will make the case that managers don't matter, hitting coaches, etc., they'll say look at the record of the the Brewers or the Marlins or whatever team that hasn't magically gone on a playoff run.

 

To that, I'll just say why did the 2012 White Sox, with basically the same or lesser personnel as 2011 and with over 10 rookie pitchers (half of them nowhere near a MLB roster right now) play so well for 5 months, when the only difference was changing from Guillen to Ventura?

 

Finally, how did the 2013 and 2014 and 2015 defense/s go from being one of the best in the AL in 2012 to the worst?

 

Why did the 2012 defense play so much better? Why did all those guys like Viciedo, DeAza and Ramirez regress in the seasons since?

 

In 2015, how can every single player on the entire roster be worse (in the case of Eaton and Alexei, the two best defenders last year...FAR WORSE) or regressing from a defensive standpoint? The only two decent defensive players right now are Beckham and Sanchez, and they're also in the biggest offensive slumps, and, at best, are limited offensively.

 

 

 

“Whether they are trying too hard or not, maybe you try harder,” Ventura said.

 

 

But White Sox manager Robin Ventura is positive it’s not for a lack of preparedness.

 

“No, they’re ready,” Ventura said. “They’re ready. When they come in the game, they’re ready to go. You can sit there, bounce around, have them throw more pitches, they’re ready to go when they go in the game. It’s just a phenomenon that needs to stop. It was a fluke until we started leading the league in it. So something has to stop and we have to have guys get better when they get in there in the first inning.”

 

“I don’t know if there is an answer to it,” Ventura said. “Obviously these guys don’t want to do that, but when they come in and any time pitchers ease into a game it’s a bit easier for the offense. First impressions are always hard to get away from. That first inning of setting the tone is there and you want to get away from that because it’s negative."

 

 

I feel pretty confident the answers aren't there, but whatever. It comes down to "trying harder" and pitchers have to set the tone early (at home) so that the offense can relax a bit more. Nothing about fielding/baserunning/lack of execution/mental mistakes.

 

www.csnchicago.com

Edited June 17, 2015 by caulfield12

[harkness99]

You win or you don't.

 

When you are a coach and you lose... magnified x100 in professional sports.

 

You lose your job.

 

No one really cares about excuses (real or imagined).

 

It's reality.

Edited June 17, 2015 by harkness

[greg775]

Bob, I liked your post a lot. My counter is the Sox have very bad hitters on the team and horrible defenders. There's not much Robin can do about that. But I do agree he doesn't have "it" and thus should be shown the door after the season. Unless somebody besides Buddy Bell takes over. Then I'd fire him now.

[kitekrazy]

I have a theory the reason why Ventura was hired is that any experienced manager would not want the job considering the future is bleak. I believe Ozzie knew that and wanted out. I would think an experienced manager would like his team tailored to to the way he thinks they can win. That is not the White Sox way.

[BigEdWalsh]

Bob, I liked your post a lot. My counter is the Sox have very bad hitters on the team and horrible defenders. There's not much Robin can do about that. But I do agree he doesn't have "it" and thus should be shown the door after the season. Unless somebody besides Buddy Bell takes over. Then I'd fire him now.

Bob nailed it. That was a great post.

[SCCWS]

Bob nailed it. That was a great post.

 

When Robin was hired, I thought it was a bad move because he had no experience. But a lot of posters here differed saying a manager in baseball had a minor impact. At this point, I would not fire Robin unless JR thinks the next manager is on staff. Instead I would fire Hahn and/or Williams and bring in a new GM. Let that person then pick his own manager next year where the field of candidates is larger. I think Hahn/Williams has assembled a roster that is flawed and is being coached by a manager that is also flawed.

 

[caulfield12]

When Robin was hired, I thought it was a bad move because he had no experience. But a lot of posters here differed saying a manager in baseball had a minor impact. At this point, I would not fire Robin unless JR thinks the next manager is on staff. Instead I would fire Hahn and/or Williams and bring in a new GM. Let that person then pick his own manager next year where the field of candidates is larger. I think Hahn/Williams has assembled a roster that is flawed and is being coached by a manager that is also flawed.

 

If they make Buddy Bell the interim guy (some would prefer McEwing), then it would certainly give them another "fall guy" to push out at the end of the season if the team doesn't respond any more than they have to Ventura this year. Joel Skinner would be another option, like the Padres just went with, their AAA manager.

 

Greg might have a conniption fit for the next 3 months, though.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I have a theory the reason why Ventura was hired is that any experienced manager would not want the job considering the future is bleak. I believe Ozzie knew that and wanted out. I would think an experienced manager would like his team tailored to to the way he thinks they can win. That is not the White Sox way.

 

 

This is just not true. There are 32 managerial jobs in the majors. Guys aren't turning them down when offered. For whatever reason, they wanted to hire Ventura.

[caulfield12]

This is just not true. There are 32 managerial jobs in the majors. Guys aren't turning them down when offered. For whatever reason, they wanted to hire Ventura.

 

 

30, but the point is that it's harder to get this job than even being a U.S. Senator, statistically.

 

They might not get the ideal or perfect candidate, but plenty of managers would be interested in a team with a solid young foundation of Chris Sale, Jose Abreu, Carlos Rodon, Jose Quintana, Fulmer, Eaton, Avi Garcia and David Robertson....with a middle teens farm system now.

[Dick Allen]

There are LOTS of White Sox fans out there like yourself "lying dormant" but who still care deeply and passionately about their favorite team and are upset/frustrated/bordering on furious with the current direction of things.

 

Good post. Obviously there are some who will make the case that managers don't matter, hitting coaches, etc., they'll say look at the record of the the Brewers or the Marlins or whatever team that hasn't magically gone on a playoff run.

 

To that, I'll just say why did the 2012 White Sox, with basically the same or lesser personnel as 2011 and with over 10 rookie pitchers (half of them nowhere near a MLB roster right now) play so well for 5 months, when the only difference was changing from Guillen to Ventura?

 

Finally, how did the 2013 and 2014 and 2015 defense/s go from being one of the best in the AL in 2012 to the worst?

 

Why did the 2012 defense play so much better? Why did all those guys like Viciedo, DeAza and Ramirez regress in the seasons since?

 

In 2015, how can every single player on the entire roster be worse (in the case of Eaton and Alexei, the two best defenders last year...FAR WORSE) or regressing from a defensive standpoint? The only two decent defensive players right now are Beckham and Sanchez, and they're also in the biggest offensive slumps, and, at best, are limited offensively.

 

 

 

“Whether they are trying too hard or not, maybe you try harder,” Ventura said.

 

 

But White Sox manager Robin Ventura is positive it’s not for a lack of preparedness.

 

“No, they’re ready,” Ventura said. “They’re ready. When they come in the game, they’re ready to go. You can sit there, bounce around, have them throw more pitches, they’re ready to go when they go in the game. It’s just a phenomenon that needs to stop. It was a fluke until we started leading the league in it. So something has to stop and we have to have guys get better when they get in there in the first inning.”

 

“I don’t know if there is an answer to it,” Ventura said. “Obviously these guys don’t want to do that, but when they come in and any time pitchers ease into a game it’s a bit easier for the offense. First impressions are always hard to get away from. That first inning of setting the tone is there and you want to get away from that because it’s negative."

 

 

I feel pretty confident the answers aren't there, but whatever. It comes down to "trying harder" and pitchers have to set the tone early (at home) so that the offense can relax a bit more. Nothing about fielding/baserunning/lack of execution/mental mistakes.

 

www.csnchicago.com

Is Robin saying something wrong here? Isn't the job having the pitchers ready for the 1st inning on Don Cooper? He is the one with them in the bullpen. He is the self proclaimed manager of the pitching staff.

 

 

[elrockinMT]

Is Robin saying something wrong here? Isn't the job having the pitchers ready for the 1st inning on Don Cooper? He is the one with them in the bullpen. He is the self proclaimed manager of the pitching staff.

 

 

Robin said the right things.

[kitekrazy]

Is Robin saying something wrong here? Isn't the job having the pitchers ready for the 1st inning on Don Cooper? He is the one with them in the bullpen. He is the self proclaimed manager of the pitching staff.

 

Some of that also has to be on the pitcher and catcher. They are suppose to know the scouting reports on hitters.

 

[LDF]

 

you know what i wish for this past week, esp when the article came out and talked about the sox and the mess.

 

well, i wish the fans had a ear in that front office and hear the discussions of what is being talked about esp from this site.

[chitownsportsfan]

In today's game I almost think it's a requirement that your manager be an ex catcher. Relying on Cooper and Flowers to call the balls and strikes and RV to know when to start the running game and when not doesn't seem to be working very well.

 

The whole thing with how Parent handled Eaton rubbed me the wrong way as well and is indicative of a fractured clubhouse imo. Yea Eaton needs to grow up, play better, and not say dumb s*** like "stir the drink" but how about standing behind the guy you just committed 25 million dollars to instead of having the acting f***ing manager bench him for a career AAAA player?

 

The whole org is a mess right now and the stench goes much deeper than just RV, unfortunately.

[LDF]

In today's game I almost think it's a requirement that your manager be an ex catcher. Relying on Cooper and Flowers to call the balls and strikes and RV to know when to start the running game and when not doesn't seem to be working very well.

 

The whole thing with how Parent handled Eaton rubbed me the wrong way as well and is indicative of a fractured clubhouse imo. Yea Eaton needs to grow up, play better, and not say dumb s*** like "stir the drink" but how about standing behind the guy you just committed 25 million dollars to instead of having the acting f***ing manager bench him for a career AAAA player?

 

The whole org is a mess right now and the stench goes much deeper than just RV, unfortunately.

 

i want someone like a young coop, someone who knows pitchers and someone who won't take crap and puts it out there.

 

now this is leading me to say someone like Mike Maddux - pit coach for Atl who has been looking for a mlb managers job.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

In today's game I almost think it's a requirement that your manager be an ex catcher. Relying on Cooper and Flowers to call the balls and strikes and RV to know when to start the running game and when not doesn't seem to be working very well.

 

The whole thing with how Parent handled Eaton rubbed me the wrong way as well and is indicative of a fractured clubhouse imo. Yea Eaton needs to grow up, play better, and not say dumb s*** like "stir the drink" but how about standing behind the guy you just committed 25 million dollars to instead of having the acting f***ing manager bench him for a career AAAA player?

 

The whole org is a mess right now and the stench goes much deeper than just RV, unfortunately.

This is hysterical in a couple of ways. First off, Parent is an ex-catcher, so that should make you happy. And secondly, earlier in the year, you were ripping Robin for what you thought was being too buddy buddy with....Eaton, when Robin said Eaton was his leadoff man.

[SCCWS]

In today's game I almost think it's a requirement that your manager be an ex catcher. Relying on Cooper and Flowers to call the balls and strikes and RV to know when to start the running game and when not doesn't seem to be working very well.

 

The whole thing with how Parent handled Eaton rubbed me the wrong way as well and is indicative of a fractured clubhouse imo. Yea Eaton needs to grow up, play better, and not say dumb s*** like "stir the drink" but how about standing behind the guy you just committed 25 million dollars to instead of having the acting f***ing manager bench him for a career AAAA player?

 

The whole org is a mess right now and the stench goes much deeper than just RV, unfortunately.

 

You don't play a guy solely because of his salary. The manager should bench any player in order to send a message or to incent them to perform better. Sometimes a player needs to re-focus and sitting them for a game or two may light a fire. Again, we as fans have no idea how much effort a player is expending. I saw a piece recently where the Boston media were complaining about Hanley Ramirez putting in minimum work in the outfield during pre-game warm-ups. He is learning and struggling to play LF in Fenway. Typically that is not something the average fan would know.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

You don't play a guy solely because of his salary. The manager should bench any player in order to send a message or to incent them to perform better. Sometimes a player needs to re-focus and sitting them for a game or two may light a fire. Again, we as fans have no idea how much effort a player is expending. I saw a piece recently where the Boston media were complaining about Hanley Ramirez putting in minimum work in the outfield during pre-game warm-ups. He is learning and struggling to play LF in Fenway. Typically that is not something the average fan would know.

 

I agree but the message isn't consistent and believe me, players see it and don't like it. If I'm a Sox pitcher struggling for a job (Noesi, Carroll, hell even Rodon) John Danks should have been DFA last summer, instead, he's the de-facto 4th starter on a "contending team" because why? Oh, his salary. If I'm Adam Eaton I'm wondering why I'm the guy to make an example of when the new FA signing next to him has been not just one of the worst 50 players in MLB (like Eaton) but one of the 10 worst?

 

Don't even get me started on Tyler Flowers, who because he's Chris Sale's butt buddy, has a lifetime pass to hit 200 and give us his usual .5 fWAR in 120 games, if that. This team is too beholden to something that doesn't produce wins. What that something is I'm not exactly sure but it's time to switch everything up.

[LDF]

I agree but the message isn't consistent and believe me, players see it and don't like it. If I'm a Sox pitcher struggling for a job (Noesi, Carroll, hell even Rodon) John Danks should have been DFA last summer, instead, he's the de-facto 4th starter on a "contending team" because why? Oh, his salary. If I'm Adam Eaton I'm wondering why I'm the guy to make an example of when the new FA signing next to him has been not just one of the worst 50 players in MLB (like Eaton) but one of the 10 worst?

 

Don't even get me started on Tyler Flowers, who because he's Chris Sale's butt buddy, has a lifetime pass to hit 200 and give us his usual .5 fWAR in 120 games, if that. This team is too beholden to something that doesn't produce wins. What that something is I'm not exactly sure but it's time to switch everything up.

 

so in other words the players are giving up b/c the problem lies in the upper management.

 

this whole discussion on this board has now gone full circle.

[chitownsportsfan]

so in other words the players are giving up b/c the problem lies in the upper management.

 

this whole discussion on this board has now gone full circle.

 

I don't care about any meta analysis of a the arguments on a fan message board ("gone full circle") but the bolded part is 100% true. What's the evidence? It's on the surface -- check the record in the last 7 years -- they've sucked.

 

When you suck for 7 years straight you usually get fired, of course this is a JR run show.

[southsider2k5]

In today's game I almost think it's a requirement that your manager be an ex catcher. Relying on Cooper and Flowers to call the balls and strikes and RV to know when to start the running game and when not doesn't seem to be working very well.

 

The whole thing with how Parent handled Eaton rubbed me the wrong way as well and is indicative of a fractured clubhouse imo. Yea Eaton needs to grow up, play better, and not say dumb s*** like "stir the drink" but how about standing behind the guy you just committed 25 million dollars to instead of having the acting f***ing manager bench him for a career AAAA player?

 

The whole org is a mess right now and the stench goes much deeper than just RV, unfortunately.

 

THEY NEED TO SHOW SIGNS OF LIFE

 

[player shows sign of life]

 

HE NEEDS TO CUT THAT s*** OUT!

[LDF]

I don't care about any meta analysis of a the arguments on a fan message board ("gone full circle") but the bolded part is 100% true. What's the evidence? It's on the surface -- check the record in the last 7 years -- they've sucked.

 

When you suck for 7 years straight you usually get fired, of course this is a JR run show.

 

nice.....

 

but it has to be said and it has a bases for this is a process of going around in circles. that in itself is the strange inconsistency of fans voicing their frustration. this is was the msg board is used sometimes to vent.

 

that is way, everyone is right and no one is wrong.

[harkness99]

If I were a player I'd love to play for Ventura and Cooper.

 

However when a team makes a bunch of constant mental errors and plays messy (in any sport) it reflects on the coach.

 

Is it fair? In some cases maybe not - but in most cases it's fair.

 

 

Some on this message board really seem to believe there is nothing wrong with our coaching staff.

 

And you think the rest of us are being reactionary, unreasonable, ect.

 

To think that the coaching staff is not to blame in anyway...

 

To me that's any bit or more irrational of an attitude.

[SCCWS]

If I were a player I'd love to play for Ventura and Cooper.

 

So you like being a loser!!!!! I am assuming you did not play any competitive sports. I doubt any players are happy playing on this team at this point.