OmarComing25 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:18 PM) "We want to invest in a full rebuild..." "No, we can't do that because the players we bring up suck (and will be worse than our current players), our minor league preparation sucks, we can't do anything but identify pitchers and Cubans in the first place." "Guess we have to keep investing in aging and expensive free agents and wait for their contracts to become albatrosses...to the point where we have to sell them off for 50 cents on the dollar." "Hmmm...." "Well, we've got Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Abreu, Robertson, Eaton, Garcia, Fulmer...how can you possibly blow up that core when you've got two superstars and possibly another along with two future All-Stars???" "Must be something missing from the equation. Gee, what could it be?" "Let's just ride things out with Flowers, Alexei, Danks, Sanchez, Cabrera....they can't be THIS bad forever. Look at the back of their baseball cards, those numbers mean something." "Look at our winning percentage and attendance since our annual second half collapse in 2010. That means something as well." Crickets. Cue soundtrack to "The Wheels on the Bus Go Round and Round" So what is the solution then? I don't envy Hahn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 05:18 PM) "We want to invest in a full rebuild..." "No, we can't do that because the players we bring up suck (and will be worse than our current players), our minor league preparation sucks, we can't do anything but identify pitchers and Cubans in the first place." "Guess we have to keep investing in aging and expensive free agents and wait for their contracts to become albatrosses...to the point where we have to sell them off for 50 cents on the dollar." "Hmmm...." "Well, we've got Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Abreu, Robertson, Eaton, Garcia, Fulmer...how can you possibly blow up that core when you've got two superstars and possibly another along with two future All-Stars???" "Must be something missing from the equation. Gee, what could it be?" "Let's just ride things out with Flowers, Alexei, Danks, Sanchez, Cabrera....they can't be THIS bad forever. Look at the back of their baseball cards, those numbers mean something." "Look at our winning percentage and attendance since our annual second half collapse in 2010. That means something as well." Crickets. Cue soundtrack to "The Wheels on the Bus Go Round and Round" that is funny. very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:25 PM) So what is the solution then? I don't envy Hahn. Haven't you read his posts? Be like the Royals, and get into the Wild Card once every 30 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:28 PM) Haven't you read his posts? Be like the Royals, and get into the Wild Card once every 30 years. That's hard to ignore. For years we heard how great their farm system was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:28 AM) Haven't you read his posts? Be like the Royals, and get into the Wild Card once every 30 years. Well, the Astros, Nationals, Rays, Rangers, Cubs and Twins all have the wrong idea, too. Must really suck for their fans to be playing better than expected and in the playoff hunt. What do all those teams have in common? Well, they all have (or recently had) exceptional farm systems that develop competent and well-prepared players ready to contribute when called upon when players get hurt on the major league roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:11 PM) That's hard to ignore. For years we heard how great their farm system was. There is ONE valuable lesson to be learned from the Royals. They didn't give up on their players....Alex Gordon went through a position change and banishment to AAA (which had to hurt even more because he was born, raised and had collegiate success there)...but he came out even stronger. A lot of teams would have given up. Cain couldn't stay healthy to save his life but they didn't trade him. Moustakas and Hosmer were described as busts or disappointing for going on 2-3 years. The point is that they didn't panic. Those players were open to instruction (Gordon with Rusty Kuntz, improving every day in the OF, Moustakas learning how to hit to the opposite field, Hosmer learning how to drive the ball, etc.) Of course, they had other players like Sal Perez and Escobar who made immediate impacts and hit the ground running...all things considered. The White Sox are NEVER patient with their young position players...you can look at the Borchard/Anderson/Josh Fields era, or the more recent disappointments like Beckham, Viciedo, Morel, Semien, Micah Johnson, Sanchez, etc. So why are other teams patient with their young players? How did we get away from that same patience we showed with the likes of Crede and Aaron Rowand? Oh, it's because White Sox fans are the only ones in the majors who get impatient and can't stand rebuilding and won't get behind a complete teardown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 01:22 PM) There is ONE valuable lesson to be learned from the Royals. They didn't give up on their players....Alex Gordon went through a position change and banishment to AAA (which had to hurt even more because he was born, raised and had collegiate success there)...but he came out even stronger. A lot of teams would have given up. Cain couldn't stay healthy to save his life but they didn't trade him. Moustakas and Hosmer were described as busts or disappointing for going on 2-3 years. The point is that they didn't panic. Those players were open to instruction (Gordon with Rusty Kuntz, improving every day in the OF, Moustakas learning how to hit to the opposite field, Hosmer learning how to drive the ball, etc.) Of course, they had other players like Sal Perez and Escobar who made immediate impacts and hit the ground running...all things considered. The White Sox are NEVER patient with their young position players...you can look at the Borchard/Anderson/Josh Fields era, or the more recent disappointments like Beckham, Viciedo, Morel, Semien, Micah Johnson, Sanchez, etc. So why are other teams patient with their young players? How did we get away from that same patience we showed with the likes of Crede and Aaron Rowand? Oh, it's because White Sox fans are the only ones in the majors who get impatient and can't stand rebuilding and won't get behind a complete teardown. The White Sox have been way more patient with their young players than Soxtalk would like. Beckham? Viciedo? Seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:31 AM) The White Sox have been way more patient with their young players than Soxtalk would like. Beckham? Viciedo? Seriously? Interestingly enough, they have not been very patient with their young 2B this year. I don't know how they could have handed the 2B job to Micah without understanding the defensive mistakes he'd make and growing pains that would come. I presume the answer probably lies with, they thought they could overcome that in other areas and didn't realize how many other guys would stink, etc, that they had to make the panic move and that was the only panic move they could even try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 02:31 PM) The White Sox have been way more patient with their young players than Soxtalk would like. Beckham? Viciedo? Seriously? They were patient with Viciedo? When they called him up from AA during his 2nd year to sit on the bench? When he got a starting job after a decent but 1/2 season stint at Charlotte? When they moved him from 3b to 1b to 3b to RF to LF within a 3 year stint? They were patient with Beckham when he got 259 minor league PAs before being called up to the bigs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 01:36 PM) They were patient with Viciedo? When they called him up from AA during his 2nd year to sit on the bench? When he got a starting job after a decent but 1/2 season stint at Charlotte? When they moved him from 3b to 1b to 3b to RF to LF within a 3 year stint? Beckham conquered AAA and was not in over his head when he was called up. They were patient with Beckham when he got 259 minor league PAs before being called up to the bigs? Beckham got about 2800 PA before they pulled the plug. Viciedo about 1800. Were you upset when they were no longer with the team, thinking the patience wasn't what it should have been? Edited June 18, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 07:36 PM) They were patient with Viciedo? When they called him up from AA during his 2nd year to sit on the bench? When he got a starting job after a decent but 1/2 season stint at Charlotte? When they moved him from 3b to 1b to 3b to RF to LF within a 3 year stint? They were patient with Beckham when he got 259 minor league PAs before being called up to the bigs? and that is the draw back of rushing players.... esp if the owners group want some instant rtn on their investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 To say they rushed Beckham is also funny. He was the Sporting News Rookie of the Year in 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 07:39 PM) Beckham got about 2800 PA before they pulled the plug. Viciedo about 1800. Were you upset when they were no longer with the team, thinking the patience wasn't what it should have been? and with that explanation i can see your point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 02:42 PM) To say they rushed Beckham is also funny. He was the Sporting News Rookie of the Year in 2009. Yes, this one is using 20/20 hindsight...but when what we actually did with him completely fails...figuring out what we did wrong seems like a reasonable step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 07:42 PM) To say they rushed Beckham is also funny. He was the Sporting News Rookie of the Year in 2009. that still didn't really mean anything. how else would you explain how he took a tumble. remember in every excuse you come up with, i will say, well SN had him rookie of the yr... Edited June 18, 2015 by LDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 First of all, Beckham was actually FIFTH in the REAL voting that everyone considers most important. Beckham was moved from SS to 3B to 2B. Viciedo went through, let's see, five position changes by my count (3B, 1B, LF, RF, DH). To think that moving those two guys are all over the place didn't affect their eventual development at all...I'm not buying it. We also did the same thing with Marcus Semien (2B, SS, 3B). So we're either bringing in incredibly limited players defensively (also, Micah and Anderson) or we don't know how to improve them. There's a long article about Nick Castellanos and all of the things the Detroit coaching staff has done (since the beginning of the offseason last year) to get him to major league average or a notch above...I'd have to hunt it down again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 03:08 PM) There's a long article about Nick Castellanos and all of the things the Detroit coaching staff has done (since the beginning of the offseason last year) to get him to major league average or a notch above...I'd have to hunt it down again. HIs .600 OPS this season doesn't suggest they're working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 01:10 PM) HIs .600 OPS this season doesn't suggest they're working. Haha...he's spent so much time working on his defense that he has forgotten how to hit. Sounds like the history of the White Sox 3B position (other than Crede) for the last 20 years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 02:08 PM) First of all, Beckham was actually FIFTH in the REAL voting that everyone considers most important. Beckham was moved from SS to 3B to 2B. Viciedo went through, let's see, five position changes by my count (3B, 1B, LF, RF, DH). To think that moving those two guys are all over the place didn't affect their eventual development at all...I'm not buying it. We also did the same thing with Marcus Semien (2B, SS, 3B). So we're either bringing in incredibly limited players defensively (also, Micah and Anderson) or we don't know how to improve them. There's a long article about Nick Castellanos and all of the things the Detroit coaching staff has done (since the beginning of the offseason last year) to get him to major league average or a notch above...I'd have to hunt it down again. Beckham being 5th was due to his in season call up. After 2010 Viciedo was done as a 3B. He played RF and LF, something hundreds upon hundreds have players have done, and got some 1B last year. It wasn't the position changes, it wasn't impatience. In fact, most here thought they were too patient. As for the Tigers, Castellanos sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 01:14 PM) Beckham being 5th was due to his in season call up. After 2010 Viciedo was done as a 3B. He played RF and LF, something hundreds upon hundreds have players have done, and got some 1B last year. It wasn't the position changes, it wasn't impatience. In fact, most here thought they were too patient. As for the Tigers, Castellanos sucks. You're right, Castellanos sucks, he's even 0.25 OPS points behind Gordon somehow. Edited June 18, 2015 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 03:09 PM) You're right, Castellanos sucks, he's even 0.25 OPS points behind Gordon somehow. I don't know what that has to do with it. But have fun praising other teams' crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 02:13 PM) I don't know what that has to do with it. But have fun praising other teams' crap. The point is that it IS POSSIBLE for other teams to help their players improve defensively once they've reached the major league level. Instead, most of the White Sox players have been getting worse, by defensive ratings and/or the eye test. Explain what has been done by the staff to address that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 07:43 PM) The point is that it IS POSSIBLE for other teams to help their players improve defensively once they've reached the major league level. Instead, most of the White Sox players have been getting worse, by defensive ratings and/or the eye test. Explain what has been done by the staff to address that. Castellanos is still a negative defender and offensive player. Sorry. Some guys get better, but it is no lock. I am sure the White Sox work with all of their players. Edited June 19, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 07:21 PM) Castellanos is still a negative defender and offensive player. Sorry. Missing the point, which is why the White Sox can't help their players improve defensively at either the minor or major league level? As you've pointed out over 100 times now, look at how many errors Marcus Semien has... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 07:43 PM) The point is that it IS POSSIBLE for other teams to help their players improve defensively once they've reached the major league level. Instead, most of the White Sox players have been getting worse, by defensive ratings and/or the eye test. Explain what has been done by the staff to address that. Explain how you know nothing is done. It is really a ridiculous assumption. I thought you said you interned for a baseball team. Edited June 19, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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