Multiple Victims in Charleston SC Church Shooting

[caulfield12]

http://news.yahoo.com/white-supremacist-do...--election.html

 

White Charleston "awareness" group donated to a slew of GOP members.

Edited June 22, 2015 by caulfield12

[Buehrle>Wood]

Why don't all African-American just join the NRA and carry guns....reverse psychology way to get to gun control?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/10/us/guns-race/index.html

nra is accepting of blacks to join them these days. They're biggest pr piece is black so they're trying to go after that crowd. Well see if it works.

 

[Quin]

Why don't all African-American just join the NRA and carry guns....reverse psychology way to get to gun control?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/10/us/guns-race/index.html

 

If everyone had guns, no one would die.

[NorthSideSox72]

I notice you didn't paste in the pic of him burning the American flag. Would that have made him seem a slight bit less conservative in your mind? I men, what self respecting teabagger would burn an American flag! He is evil, cloaked in racism. I would almost be happy if the police car transporting him to trial broke down in the middle of gang territory and the cops were forced to abandon the car.

Just curious, because I see this from a number of places (not just your post)... if this guy is evil, using some variety of racism/white power/KKK as a mask or banner to hide behind... would you say the same about extremist Islamic terrorists? That it isn't about religion, but about evil individuals?

 

I personally don't draw the sort of society-wide conclusions from this shooting that others seem to. Racist loser kills a bunch of people. It's awful, it's sad. He'll be tried and either put to death or put in jail forever. Whether you want to point to the racism or the homicidal lunacy, both were there with this guy. Both are bad. Both aren't going to go away suddenly.

 

I saw dueling opinion pieces from one of the Psychology magazines recently, that I think both captured it well, if you do want to make this societal. One said the problem was about anti-intellectualism, the other said it was about lack of empathy. I agree with both.

 

One other thing people forget when these tragedies occur - rates of deadly crime in this country have, nearly across the board, been on a downward trend for a couple decades now. Some places saw a tick up the past few years, which is economic in basis. But overall, crime is headed down. It just seems there may be more of a certain KIND of crime, combined with the fact that we hear more about it now because of technology. Yet people jump to the conclusion that there is some sort of trend here - there isn't.

 

[Jake]

Reading his little "manifesto" makes it relatively clear to me that he is not insane. His self-described ideology is more or less logically coherent, just based on what are obviously false premises (he holds misconceptions about the prevalence of black on white crime and the lived experiences of slaves, among other things). It doesn't read all that differently than some of the stuff that was influential in Nazi Germany or was getting published in American academic journals in the early 1900s. Roof basically felt that American society was being especially harmed by the presence of black people who he thinks are biologically/genetically inferior beings and he is disappointed that the white power movement is just a bunch of people talking on the internet, so he didn't want to stand idly by as society crumbled, in his opinion.

 

Misguided? Of course. Evil? Absolutely. Crazy? I'm not so sure. Only if we just say that anyone who kills a person is insane which of course absolves everyone of responsibility for everything they do.

[Balta1701]

One other thing people forget when these tragedies occur - rates of deadly crime in this country have, nearly across the board, been on a downward trend for a couple decades now. Some places saw a tick up the past few years, which is economic in basis. But overall, crime is headed down. It just seems there may be more of a certain KIND of crime, combined with the fact that we hear more about it now because of technology. Yet people jump to the conclusion that there is some sort of trend here - there isn't.

Several studies have come out in recent years arguing that the rate of "Mass shootings" classified typically as 4 or more people shot in a single event is actually going up and in some cases fairly rapidly.

[Jenksismyhero]

Several studies have come out in recent years arguing that the rate of "Mass shootings" classified typically as 4 or more people shot in a single event is actually going up and in some cases fairly rapidly.

 

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/09/why-y...oting-rise.html

 

The conclusion: not by much, and it still amounts to less than 1% of the murders every year.

[StrangeSox]

So again, what's your solution? Great we got rid of a dumb flag. You think that's stopping this guy from his hate? Should we start up some thought police? Keep tabs on anyone that has posted terrible things on the internet?

 

Just wanted to point out that, for better or worse, this is literally what the FBI does (as well as keeping tabs on people who engage in certain types of political activity).

[Jenksismyhero]

Just wanted to point out that, for better or worse, this is literally what the FBI does (as well as keeping tabs on people who engage in certain types of political activity).

 

They don't have the man power nor the legal authority to do anything about it though.

[EvilMonkey]

Just curious, because I see this from a number of places (not just your post)... if this guy is evil, using some variety of racism/white power/KKK as a mask or banner to hide behind... would you say the same about extremist Islamic terrorists? That it isn't about religion, but about evil individuals?

I would ask the same question of our more liberal posters. Every time a Muslim commits an evil act we are constantly reminded by media, politicians and so on how this was a 'lone wolf' and in no way represents Islam. However EVERY TIME a white guy does something, and double if he even remotely appears to be conservative, Republicans and conservatives are bombarded to distance themselves from him, apologize and so on. I have zero in common with this Dylan asshole other than he shares the same skin color as me. I feel no kinship or empathy with him because he happens to be white like me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

<!--quoteo(post=3184779:date=Jun 22, 2015 -> 11:27 AM:name=NorthSideSox72)-->

<!--quotec-->Just curious, because I see this from a number of places (not just your post)... if this guy is evil, using some variety of racism/white power/KKK as a mask or banner to hide behind... would you say the same about extremist Islamic terrorists? That it isn't about religion, but about evil individuals?

I would ask the same question of our more liberal posters. Every time a Muslim commits an evil act we are constantly reminded by media, politicians and so on how this was a 'lone wolf' and in no way represents Islam. However EVERY TIME a white guy does something, and double if he even remotely appears to be conservative, Republicans and conservatives are bombarded to distance themselves from him, apologize and so on. I have zero in common with this Dylan asshole other than he shares the same skin color as me. I feel no kinship or empathy with him because he happens to be white like me.

The best way to change stereotypes is to perform the stereotypical act. Good job young black males of baltimore.

Because there's the exact same standard being applied.

[StrangeSox]

They don't have the man power nor the legal authority to do anything about it though.

This is false. I have first-hand experience.

[Jenksismyhero]

This is false. I have first-hand experience.

 

Was an actual threat made? Did it deal with "terrorism?" I don't see how it's illegal for someone to be arrested for writing a racist manifesto on the internet.

[StrangeSox]

Was an actual threat made? Did it deal with "terrorism?" I don't see how it's illegal for someone to be arrested for writing a racist manifesto on the internet.

A building was burnt down. I was questioned because a high school friend of mine who's a (non-violent) animal rights activist was a person of interest. He got on the FBI's radar because he organized some door-to-door pamphleting at one point.

 

The FBI has kept tabs on and broken up other right-wing militia, white supremacist and left-wing environmentalist plots in the past. They do this frequently for Islamic terrorism. This isn't necessarily an endorsement of their methods in general or in any particular case, but they absolutely keep tabs on people who write terrible things on the internet.

[NorthSideSox72]

Several studies have come out in recent years arguing that the rate of "Mass shootings" classified typically as 4 or more people shot in a single event is actually going up and in some cases fairly rapidly.

 

 

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/09/why-y...oting-rise.html

 

The conclusion: not by much, and it still amounts to less than 1% of the murders every year.

 

Those two just re-illustrate my point. Crime is generally down for some time now, though it is possible certain groupings or types within that are going up. Point is, this isn't some new trend.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

<!--quoteo(post=3184779:date=Jun 22, 2015 -> 11:27 AM:name=NorthSideSox72)-->

<!--quotec-->Just curious, because I see this from a number of places (not just your post)... if this guy is evil, using some variety of racism/white power/KKK as a mask or banner to hide behind... would you say the same about extremist Islamic terrorists? That it isn't about religion, but about evil individuals?

I would ask the same question of our more liberal posters. Every time a Muslim commits an evil act we are constantly reminded by media, politicians and so on how this was a 'lone wolf' and in no way represents Islam. However EVERY TIME a white guy does something, and double if he even remotely appears to be conservative, Republicans and conservatives are bombarded to distance themselves from him, apologize and so on. I have zero in common with this Dylan asshole other than he shares the same skin color as me. I feel no kinship or empathy with him because he happens to be white like me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that happens both ways. Was more curious what YOU thought. I could care less what columnists at Salon or Daily Beast think.

 

[EvilMonkey]

I think that happens both ways. Was more curious what YOU thought. I could care less what columnists at Salon or Daily Beast think.

I think Islam itself is a whole different ballgame as the religion is also a political structure. The government in regions dominated by it is entirely religious-based, so it is hard for people to separate them. So take the 2 guys that tried to kill Pam Gellar recently. You have a mixture of both. They were most likely acting on their own, using their interpretations of religion as the basis of the actions. But where are they getting those interpretations from? Imans, CAIR, whole governments etc. When they throw people off a roof in Iran for being gay, and a Muslim here does something anti-gay, well. Iran didn't tell him to, but he sure got the idea is was A-OK from somewhere, and it wasn't just from some corner anti-gay Muslim.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think Islam itself is a whole different ballgame as the religion is also a political structure. The government in regions dominated by it is entirely religious-based, so it is hard for people to separate them. So take the 2 guys that tried to kill Pam Gellar recently. You have a mixture of both. They were most likely acting on their own, using their interpretations of religion as the basis of the actions. But where are they getting those interpretations from? Imans, CAIR, whole governments etc. When they throw people off a roof in Iran for being gay, and a Muslim here does something anti-gay, well. Iran didn't tell him to, but he sure got the idea is was A-OK from somewhere, and it wasn't just from some corner anti-gay Muslim.

I do agree that the institutionalized religion into government is a key difference. The KKK isn't running a government or writing books required in school. However, I do think you need to separate the interpretation here. I am NOT an expert, but from what I have read in a few books on the topic, I don't get the impression the Quran is any more (or less) leaning towards violence than the Bible. Its how the religion is taught and implemented.

 

Anyway that's an aside. I think we agree that the key here is, dude did something evil and that's bad. He was racist and that's bad.

 

[EvilMonkey]

I do agree that the institutionalized religion into government is a key difference. The KKK isn't running a government or writing books required in school. However, I do think you need to separate the interpretation here. I am NOT an expert, but from what I have read in a few books on the topic, I don't get the impression the Quran is any more (or less) leaning towards violence than the Bible. Its how the religion is taught and implemented.

 

Anyway that's an aside. I think we agree that the key here is, dude did something evil and that's bad. He was racist and that's bad.

Yes, at least on the second part. Not entirely sure on the first.

[StrangeSox]

I do agree that the institutionalized religion into government is a key difference.

 

What about the institutionalized racial supremacy that flying a confederate flag on a state capitol represents?

[EvilMonkey]

What about the institutionalized racial supremacy that flying a confederate flag on a state capitol represents?

How about getting the words at least correct as it isn't 'flying on the state capital', but in a memorial park on capital grounds. it was removed from the capital building a few years ago.

[Quin]

I think Islam itself is a whole different ballgame as the religion is also a political structure. The government in regions dominated by it is entirely religious-based, so it is hard for people to separate them. So take the 2 guys that tried to kill Pam Gellar recently. You have a mixture of both. They were most likely acting on their own, using their interpretations of religion as the basis of the actions. But where are they getting those interpretations from? Imans, CAIR, whole governments etc. When they throw people off a roof in Iran for being gay, and a Muslim here does something anti-gay, well. Iran didn't tell him to, but he sure got the idea is was A-OK from somewhere, and it wasn't just from some corner anti-gay Muslim.

 

So Christianity doesn't influence the US government?

[EvilMonkey]

So Christianity doesn't influence the US government?

Big difference between influence and control. People were worried that Kennedy would be controlled once in office by his Catholic faith. Liberals constantly worry that any right winger will let his Christian faith guide him in decision making. Influencing isn't always a bad thing. Controlling is another. Islam IS the government. There is no separation.

[NorthSideSox72]

What about the institutionalized racial supremacy that flying a confederate flag on a state capitol represents?

 

How about getting the words at least correct as it isn't 'flying on the state capital', but in a memorial park on capital grounds. it was removed from the capital building a few years ago.

 

Correct. But I do applaud that they are taking them down. That said, it has next to nothing to do with this shooting in my mind, other than the fact that they both involve racism. That's a stretch of a connection for me.

 

Big difference between influence and control. People were worried that Kennedy would be controlled once in office by his Catholic faith. Liberals constantly worry that any right winger will let his Christian faith guide him in decision making. Influencing isn't always a bad thing. Controlling is another. Islam IS the government. There is no separation.

 

Agree here too.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Correct. But I do applaud that they are taking them down. That said, it has next to nothing to do with this shooting in my mind, other than the fact that they both involve racism. That's a stretch of a connection for me.

 

Dylan Roof embraced that flag and the ideology it has conveyed from when it was first used in the name of the preservation and expansion of slavery to resisting the civil rights movement of the 20th century to modern-day white supremacy.