Multiple Victims in Charleston SC Church Shooting

[StrangeSox]

How about getting the words at least correct as it isn't 'flying on the state capital', but in a memorial park on capital grounds. it was removed from the capital building a few years ago.

Distinction without a difference.

[EvilMonkey]

Distinction without a difference.

Yeah, because screaming 'Quit flying that flag on top of the state capitall!' sounds just the same as 'remove that flag from your war memorial'.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, because screaming 'Quit flying that flag on top of the state capitall!' sounds just the same as 'remove that flag from your war memorial'.

On how many war memorials does Germany proudly fly the Nazi flag?

 

edit: I do like the portrayal of people who don't want the state to fly the flag of treasonous slaveholders and white supremacists as 'screaming' though.

Edited June 22, 2015 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

I think Islam itself is a whole different ballgame as the religion is also a political structure. The government in regions dominated by it is entirely religious-based, so it is hard for people to separate them. So take the 2 guys that tried to kill Pam Gellar recently. You have a mixture of both. They were most likely acting on their own, using their interpretations of religion as the basis of the actions. But where are they getting those interpretations from? Imans, CAIR, whole governments etc. When they throw people off a roof in Iran for being gay, and a Muslim here does something anti-gay, well. Iran didn't tell him to, but he sure got the idea is was A-OK from somewhere, and it wasn't just from some corner anti-gay Muslim.

 

Where do Christians (and other non-Muslims) who do terrible anti-gay things get their ideas from?

[southsider2k5]

On how many war memorials does Germany proudly fly the Nazi flag?

 

Considering it is illegal, I am going with not many.

[StrangeSox]

Considering it is illegal, I am going with not many.

Right. Germany can have war memorials, 'heritage' and historical understanding without flying Nazi flags. It doesn't completely prevent neo-Nazism but at least it doesn't provide tacit support for it, either.

 

How many Nazi flags fly at WWII memorials period?

[EvilMonkey]

Where do Christians (and other non-Muslims) who do terrible anti-gay things get their ideas from?

Certainly not from our beloved central overlords in government. Which is the point.

[southsider2k5]

Right. Germany can have war memorials, 'heritage' and historical understanding without flying Nazi flags. It doesn't completely prevent neo-Nazism but at least it doesn't provide tacit support for it, either.

 

How many Nazi flags fly at WWII memorials period?

 

The difference being freedom of speech here would actually prevent the banning of it. Considering that Nazi groups still operate in Germany, I think it is clear that banning a flag doesn't change racism.

 

Should SC fly the flag, no. What I don't buy is that somehow the flag is somehow responsible for anything. It is a symbol of hatred, but it does not create hatred. Taking it down won't change any of that, and actually could have the opposite effect of giving a rallying cry for all of the racist idiots in the south. I could see it serving as a great recruiting tool for groups like the Klan by making these groups feel under attack in their demented way.

[StrangeSox]

Certainly not from our beloved central overlords in government. Which is the point.

 

Why make the assumption that Iran must be influencing anti-gay Muslim attitudes, then? Why couldn't it be the same non-governmental source that's influencing non-Muslim anti-gay attitudes?

[Balta1701]

The difference being freedom of speech here would actually prevent the banning of it. Considering that Nazi groups still operate in Germany, I think it is clear that banning a flag doesn't change racism.

 

Should SC fly the flag, no. What I don't buy is that somehow the flag is somehow responsible for anything. It is a symbol of hatred, but it does not create hatred. Taking it down won't change any of that, and actually could have the opposite effect of giving a rallying cry for all of the racist idiots in the south. I could see it serving as a great recruiting tool for groups like the Klan by making these groups feel under attack in their demented way.

The general problem with this logic is that it ignores the ability to create an environment where this stuff is ok. Sure it wasn't the flag on that day that did it, it wasn't any specific time someone called a black person a n***** around him, it wasn't any particular instance...but every one of those little insults, those little statements that African Americans aren't viewed as human in this part of the world...they build up together.

[southsider2k5]

Why make the assumption that Iran must be influencing anti-gay Muslim attitudes, then? Why couldn't it be the same non-governmental source that's influencing non-Muslim anti-gay attitudes?

 

The public executions of gays for being gay?

[StrangeSox]

The difference being freedom of speech here would actually prevent the banning of it. Considering that Nazi groups still operate in Germany, I think it is clear that banning a flag doesn't change racism.

 

Well, right, which is why I don't think anyone is calling for the flag to be banned. Calling for the state not to display and endorse it isn't the same as calling for a ban.

 

Should SC fly the flag, no. What I don't buy is that somehow the flag is somehow responsible for anything. It is a symbol of hatred, but it does not create hatred.

 

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, and I've made that clear a few times previously in this thread. It's a symbol of hatred that is currently embraced by a state government, and people rightly want that to end. That will not eliminate white supremacist and racist thought, but it's at least a clear acknowledgement that that is what that symbol and the confederacy stood for. It's an incremental step in the right direction.

 

Taking it down won't change any of that, and actually could have the opposite effect of giving a rallying cry for all of the racist idiots in the south. I could see it serving as a great recruiting tool for groups like the Klan by making these groups feel under attack in their demented way.

 

Eh, maybe. Those sorts of groups are already mired in their "take back our country from those people" and perceived victimization. You could make the same argument about any action that that sort of person would take affront to. At the very least, if it becomes a clear and explicit marker to anyone and everyone of racist ideology, that's a positive.

[southsider2k5]

Well, right, which is why I don't think anyone is calling for the flag to be banned. Calling for the state not to display and endorse it isn't the same as calling for a ban.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is saying otherwise, and I've made that clear a few times previously in this thread. It's a symbol of hatred that is currently embraced by a state government, and people rightly want that to end. That will not eliminate white supremacist and racist thought, but it's at least a clear acknowledgement that that is what that symbol and the confederacy stood for. It's an incremental step in the right direction.

 

 

 

Eh, maybe. Those sorts of groups are already mired in their "take back our country from those people" and perceived victimization. You could make the same argument about any action that that sort of person would take affront to. At the very least, if it becomes a clear and explicit marker to anyone and everyone of racist ideology, that's a positive.

 

If the last 150 years haven't done that, why would taking down the confederate flag?

[StrangeSox]

The public executions of gays for being gay?

There is that push by ultra-right Christians for the death penalty in Uganda, but I was trying to point out that it doesn't make sense to assume that Muslim anti-gay animus (that was alpha's chosen example) must be coming from Muslim governmental actions when there's plenty of other anti-gay animus in non-Muslim groups. A religious state clearly isn't a necessary condition for that sort of attitude to spread.

[southsider2k5]

There is that push by ultra-right Christians for the death penalty in Uganda, but I was trying to point out that it doesn't make sense to assume that Muslim anti-gay animus (that was alpha's chosen example) must be coming from Muslim governmental actions when there's plenty of other anti-gay animus in non-Muslim groups. A religious state clearly isn't a necessary condition for that sort of attitude to spread.

 

How many influencial non-Muslim groups are there in Iran?

[StrangeSox]

If the last 150 years haven't done that, why would taking down the confederate flag?

For about 100 years after the slaveholders' insurrection/Civil War, the "Lost Cause" historiography held throughout pretty much the entire country. It was portrayed as a gentleman's tragic fight over states rights and tariffs (and still largely is in many places). It's only been in the last several decades that people have rightly recognized what the primary sources make abundantly clear, which is that slavery was the central cause of the war and that white supremacy was the driving force behind the resistance to Reconstruction and the following century of oppression. The traitors' flag didn't even fly at the state capitol until 1961.

 

If the state of South Carolina is willing to recognize what that flag truly means, that sends a message. More and more people are willing to reject the idea that the Confederacy wasn't primarily/solely about the preservation and extension of slavery and that this flag has been used in the name of white supremacist ideology from the start.

[EvilMonkey]

Why make the assumption that Iran must be influencing anti-gay Muslim attitudes, then? Why couldn't it be the same non-governmental source that's influencing non-Muslim anti-gay attitudes?

So what non-governmental source over there would you think could be corrupting those young minds? The Imans? Who work hand in hand with the government? That's all there is there, There is no separation. Religion is political. And it isn't just Iran. Isis, Pakistan, all over the damn place. You just let your liberal blinders keep you from seeing it because it is America that is supposed to be bad, not the poor, oppressed brown people who worship a pedophile and kill gay people.

[StrangeSox]

worship a pedophile

 

 

lol jesus christ

 

edit: I don't know why you think pointing out your argument is flawed is somehow an endorsement of Iran or of Islamic theocratic states, but it isn't.

Edited June 22, 2015 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

For about 100 years after the slaveholders' insurrection/Civil War, the "Lost Cause" historiography held throughout pretty much the entire country. It was portrayed as a gentleman's tragic fight over states rights and tariffs (and still largely is in many places). It's only been in the last several decades that people have rightly recognized what the primary sources make abundantly clear, which is that slavery was the central cause of the war and that white supremacy was the driving force behind the resistance to Reconstruction and the following century of oppression. The traitors' flag didn't even fly at the state capitol until 1961.

 

If the state of South Carolina is willing to recognize what that flag truly means, that sends a message. More and more people are willing to reject the idea that the Confederacy wasn't primarily/solely about the preservation and extension of slavery and that this flag has been used in the name of white supremacist ideology from the start.

 

To the non-racists it sends a message. To the racists it tells them that the Civil War isn't over yet, as the same things are still happening.

[StrangeSox]

How many influencial non-Muslim groups are there in Iran?

Alpha referred to a Muslim here being influenced into anti-gay ideas because of actions of the Iranian government. Leaving aside the distinction between various Muslim sects in the first place, I was just pointing out that his "different because government/religion combo" doesn't make sense in the specific example he picked. There's anti-gay Christian sentiment without there being the equivalent of an Evangelical Iran or Saudi Arabia.

[StrangeSox]

To the non-racists it sends a message. To the racists it tells them that the Civil War isn't over yet, as the same things are still happening.

Right, so you'll no longer have non-racists who may genuinely display the flag or support the state displaying the flag out of misplaced pride or heritage because they just didn't understand what the symbol really meant to many of their fellow Americans before. If it, like the Nazi swastika, becomes the symbol solely of white supremacists, well, at least they're easier to spot now and we don't have state governments flying the same flag.

[StrangeSox]

Good move by Nikki Haley, Republican Governor of SC:

 

South Carolina governor calls for Confederate flag's removal

 

 

The flag that has flown at the State House grounds in Columbia for the past half century became a fresh focus of criticism in recent days after the Charleston church massacre, which federal authorities are investigating as a hate crime and an act of terrorism by accused gunman Dylann Roof, 21, who posed with the flag in photos posted online.

 

"It's time to move the flag from the capital grounds," Haley, a Republican, told a news conference in the state capital, about 100 miles (161 km) from the shooting.

 

"The flag, while an integral part of our past, does not represent the future of our great state."

 

Haley called on lawmakers, whose normal legislative year wraps up this week, to address the issue over the summer and said she would order a special session if they did not.

Several speakers said the flag's presence at the state's capital sent an unappealing message about South Carolina.

 

"Ridding the flag from the front of the State House is a start," said state Senator Marlon Kimpson, who is black. "But let me underscore this: It will not solve the racial divide in South Carolina."

[southsider2k5]

Right, so you'll no longer have non-racists who may genuinely display the flag or support the state displaying the flag out of misplaced pride or heritage because they just didn't understand what the symbol really meant to many of their fellow Americans before. If it, like the Nazi swastika, becomes the symbol solely of white supremacists, well, at least they're easier to spot now and we don't have state governments flying the same flag.

 

In what world do people who don't get that the Confederate flag is racist, actually exit? If they don't get it, they are the type of people who don't want to get it.

[StrangeSox]

In what world do people who don't get that the Confederate flag is racist, actually exit? If they don't get it, they are the type of people who don't want to get it.

"Heritage not hate," blinders caused by political or cultural affiliation. I think this may genuinely have been an eye-opening event for some people who maybe didn't want to get it before and can't help but get it now. Again, at the very least, we will hopefully no longer have South Carolina proudly flying a racist symbol.

[southsider2k5]

"Heritage not hate," blinders caused by political or cultural affiliation. I think this may genuinely have been an eye-opening event for some people who maybe didn't want to get it before and can't help but get it now. Again, at the very least, we will hopefully no longer have South Carolina proudly flying a racist symbol.

 

You don't actually believe that stuff, do you? Please tell me you don't.