Multiple Victims in Charleston SC Church Shooting

[StrangeSox]

Nope, still think eliminating state endorsement of white supremacist symbols is part of the "real conversation." Saying "it's just a flag" is telling us to ignore the entire history of that flag and the rotten ideas it represents. There's no good reason to turn a blind eye to that or to tell people who (correctly) perceive it as a symbol of a deeply racist legacy in the south to pretend that it doesn't mean that. That's what it stood for in the 1860's, that what it stood for in the 1960's and that's what it still stands for.

 

I'll again go back to the Germany analogy. The Waffen SS symbol is just some letters. Why can't it just be viewed as a symbol of Germany, no strings attached? Why not fly Nazi flags from government buildings as a symbol of their heritage, not their hate?

 

edit: It's not how "I" choose to view it. It's how, historically and presently, it's been used. It is virtually exclusively white people that endorse that symbol.

Edited June 23, 2015 by StrangeSox

[Y2HH]

Nope, still think eliminating state endorsement of white supremacist symbols is part of the "real conversation." Saying "it's just a flag" is telling us to ignore the entire history of that flag and the rotten ideas it represents. There's no good reason to turn a blind eye to that or to tell people who (correctly) perceive it as a symbol of a deeply racist legacy in the south to pretend that it doesn't mean that. That's what it stood for in the 1860's, that what it stood for in the 1960's and that's what it still stands for.

 

I'll again go back to the Germany analogy. The Waffen SS symbol is just some letters. Why can't it just be viewed as a symbol of Germany, no strings attached? Why not fly Nazi flags from government buildings as a symbol of their heritage, not their hate?

 

edit: It's not how "I" choose to view it. It's how, historically and presently, it's been used. It is virtually exclusively white people that endorse that symbol.

 

I'm sure racism in the south has been solved by the removal of that flag.

 

Again, that's NOT the conversation. The conversation starts AND ends in the home. You can remove ALL the historic symbols of racism from the world right now and those that were programmed to be racists will invent NEW symbols or hijack other historical symbols as their new symbol.

 

That flag wasn't flying in the present day as a symbol of racism regardless of what it was once symbolic of. Taking it down will solve NOTHING, and whether you accept that or not is irrelevant.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Y2HH

[southsider2k5]

Nope, still think eliminating state endorsement of white supremacist symbols is part of the "real conversation." Saying "it's just a flag" is telling us to ignore the entire history of that flag and the rotten ideas it represents. There's no good reason to turn a blind eye to that or to tell people who (correctly) perceive it as a symbol of a deeply racist legacy in the south to pretend that it doesn't mean that. That's what it stood for in the 1860's, that what it stood for in the 1960's and that's what it still stands for.

 

I'll again go back to the Germany analogy. The Waffen SS symbol is just some letters. Why can't it just be viewed as a symbol of Germany, no strings attached? Why not fly Nazi flags from government buildings as a symbol of their heritage, not their hate?

 

edit: It's not how "I" choose to view it. It's how, historically and presently, it's been used. It is virtually exclusively white people that endorse that symbol.

 

And yet still SS backed parties and groups still exist in Germany. Some even get elected to office. You are just reinforcing the point that taking down a flag, or even banning a flag, isn't fixing the actual problem.

[Balta1701]

I'm sure racism in the south has been solved by the removal of that flag.

 

Again, that's NOT the conversation. The conversation starts AND ends in the home. You can remove ALL the historic symbols of racism from the world right now and those that were programmed to be racists will invent NEW symbols or hijack other historical symbols as their new symbol.

 

That flag wasn't flying in the present day as a symbol of racism regardless of what it was once symbolic of. Taking it down will solve NOTHING, and whether you accept that or not is irrelevant.

I'm sure racism in the south is not solved as long as people think it's ok to fly that flag.

[Y2HH]

I'm sure racism in the south is not solved as long as people think it's ok to fly that flag.

 

Those same people will just replace that symbol with another...and once again the problem remains.

[StrangeSox]

I'm sure racism in the south has been solved by the removal of that flag.

 

Again, that's NOT the conversation.

 

I know that's not the conversation, but you and a couple of others keep weirdly pretending that anyone, anywhere is saying that. I'm glad you can finally agree to stop pretending that anyone thinks this or is trying to claim this.

 

The conversation starts AND ends in the home. You can remove ALL the historic symbols of racism from the world right now and those that were programmed to be racists will invent NEW symbols or hijack other historical symbols as their new symbol.

 

That does not mean that we will suddenly have the state government proudly displaying these symbols. And it doesn't end "at home" because people are influenced by many things both inside and outside of the home. While they definitely influence, parents do not and cannot control what their children will come to believe or even what sources of information they'll come into contact with.

 

Blaming it all on Roof's parents just excuses the passive acceptance of white supremacist symbols and ideas and the white supremacist culture prevalent in some places (both in the real world and online).

 

That flag wasn't flying in the present day as a symbol of racism regardless of what it'l was once symbolic of.

 

I don't know why you think you can confidently assert that. Y2HH does not get to declare how others use and others perceive symbols with long and proud white supremacist history or the "heritage not hate" apologia papering over the evils of the confederacy and the apartheid south that comes along with it.

 

How and when did the flag with 100+ years of white supremacist history and usage suddenly get cleansed of its racist past? When did the south give up its "Lost Cause"/"War of Northern Aggression" confederate apologia, which I'm pretty sure is still widely taught?

 

Taking it down will solve NOTHING, and whether you accept that or not is irrelevant.

 

I don't think your declaration here actually means anything, but worst-case, a symbol of white supremacy is no longer flying at the SC capitol or as a part of the Mississippi state flag. Even if it leads to nothing else, that's better than the status quo ante.

[StrangeSox]

And yet still SS backed parties and groups still exist in Germany. Some even get elected to office. You are just reinforcing the point that taking down a flag, or even banning a flag, isn't fixing the actual problem.

There is no single solution, but removing state endorsement of white supremacist symbols is a step in the right direction.

 

I'll ask you again, what do you think removal of a symbol of white supremacy from state endorsement is preventing that would fix the "actual problem" of the prevalence and pervasiveness of racist ideology?

[Y2HH]

There is no single solution, but removing state endorsement of white supremacist symbols is a step in the right direction.

 

I'll ask you again, what do you think removal of a symbol of white supremacy from state endorsement is preventing that would fix the "actual problem" of the prevalence and pervasiveness of racist ideology?

 

We didn't say it would prevent anything, we are simply saying it also didn't solve anything, and it didn't.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Y2HH

[Balta1701]

We didn't say it would prevent anything, we are simply saying it also didn't solve anything, and it won't.

Then let's get rid of it and move on to bigger issues, agreed?

[Y2HH]

Then let's get rid of it and move on to bigger issues, agreed?

 

See, that's where we differ. You are interested in these little things that accomplish nothing, whereas I would much prefer to face the actual issue. If you fix the root of the issue the rest of the tree heals and these "false gods" and "symbols" will all disappear on their own.

 

In the end we want the same result.

[StrangeSox]

We didn't say it would prevent anything, we are simply saying it also didn't solve anything, and it didn't.

It solves the problem of government endorsement of white supremacist symbols.

 

But so far all of the useless distraction seems to be coming from the people insisting on telling everyone why the symbol isn't racist or why taking it down won't solve racism. So why not just stop, let the flag be taken down, and then advocate for the causes you think will help.

[StrangeSox]

See, that's where we differ. You are interested in these little things that accomplish nothing, whereas I would much prefer to face the actual issue. If you fix the root of the issue the rest of the tree heals and these "false gods" and "symbols" will all disappear on their own.

 

In the end we want the same result.

But if you guys didn't keep whining about people calling for the flag to come down it would have amounted to a handful of posts and you guys could be talking about these unspecified real issues you keep mentioning.

[Y2HH]

It solves the problem of government endorsement of white supremacist symbols.

 

But so far all of the useless distraction seems to be coming from the people insisting on telling everyone why the symbol isn't racist or why taking it down won't solve racism. So why not just stop, let the flag be taken down, and then advocate for the causes you think will help.

 

The only thing that will solve that is to stop electing racists. Simply removing the symbol but leaving the racists in power solves nothing.

[Y2HH]

But if you guys didn't keep whining about people calling for the flag to come down it would have amounted to a handful of posts and you guys could be talking about these unspecified real issues you keep mentioning.

 

I clearly mentioned that racism is a learned trait, and it starts in the home. Of course you can't control your kids at some point and some will fall through the cracks, but this begins at a young age and grows from there. You can't blame parents 100%, but to pretend they aren't a large contribution is nothing more than excuse making.

 

So unspecified my ass.

[StrangeSox]

That isn't really saying much of anything or providing any sort of solution or change though.

[Y2HH]

That isn't really saying much of anything or providing any sort of solution or change though.

 

I'm not going to pretend I have the answer for all society to solve racism.

 

I can, however, do my part to raise my own kids to understand that people should be judged on their content of character, not their skin color. That's how you solve it, one family at a time. I also can't guarantee what I tell them sticks, but I sure as hell can try...and if we all did this...they'll grow up smart enough to NOT elect racists, that hire other racists, that hire even more.

 

That is my small contribution.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, asking for a policy plan to solve racism would be ridiculous.

 

And it's great that you are trying to raise your children right, but this isn't an individual issue, it's a societal problem. It won't be solved if people don't look at wider cultural influences and where this sort of ideology comes from in the first place. How can you rely on better parents to root out racism in areas where it's entrenched and many of the parents are themselves racist?

 

Look at homophobia. Has that been greatly improved by ignoring it on aa societal level and hoping for the best? Or has it gotten better pretty quickly because publicly acceptable and government endorsed homophobia has been challenged? It's changed much more quickly than "parents raise better kids" can account for, including many parents themselves changing their minds.

Edited June 23, 2015 by StrangeSox

[EvilMonkey]

Look at this blatant use of the confederate 'flag' for promotional use. Funny.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HILLARY-CLINTON-TR...=item1a01f226d5

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HILLARY-CLINTON-20...=item1a01f1f1dc

[StrangeSox]

Cool

[EvilMonkey]

Cool

So you're cool with HIllary supporters being racists. Got it.

[StrangeSox]

That seems like the appropriate conclusion to draw!

[StrangeSox]

Well, Democrats are taking the opportunity to push something more substantive than taking down the flags. Senator Patrick Leahy and Congressman John Lewis are introducing legislation to rebuild the Voting Rights Act that was gutted by a Supreme Court ruling two years ago.

[EvilMonkey]

So, now that the war on a flag is done, what's next? Renaming military bases named after confederate generals? Public buildings? Whistling Dixie going to be the new 'dog whistle'?

[StrangeSox]

So now that whining about taking down the flag of white supremacists is done, what's next? Whining about no longer honoring white supremacist terrorists by naming schools and streets after them?

[EvilMonkey]

So now that whining about taking down the flag of white supremacists is done, what's next? Whining about no longer honoring white supremacist terrorists by naming schools and streets after them?

Hey, Democrats have terrorists as professors and best buddies of Presidents (Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn), so why do you begrudge a few street names?