Multiple Victims in Charleston SC Church Shooting

[StrangeSox]

Everything I wrote, that you responded too, was the exact opposite of everything you just said.

 

I explicitly said I at least understand people wanting them to remove it from the state/city in an official capacity. I was speaking specifically as to how far they're actually taking this now. Everyone's getting on board just so people will look at them.

 

Free publicity for WalMart and Ebay, Mitt Romney, etc...

 

This is opportunistic.

 

But thanks for actually reading.

 

Mitt's actually talked about this for years, apparently, and good for him for doing so.

 

WalMart, eBay, yeah probably opportunistic but the end result is good so.

[Y2HH]

Yeah, it's a shame that the flag wasn't torn from the pole and burned as part of Haley's first speech as it should have been. It's sad that so much effort has to be put into just taking down a symbol of white supremacy let alone actually fighting against white supremacy.

 

I'm sure all the white supremacists in the world will now reform their wayward ways and become good people since they lost their icon.

[StrangeSox]

Shoot, this is some good PR. Walmart, Ebay, and now Amazon. The white supremcy flag was fine last week, but "Oh! A national story?! We're not cool with it now either!"

 

The fact that it still works on the American people really saddens me.

The fact that so many Americans seem to have more of an objection to calls for taking the flag of white supremacists off of state capitols than to the flag itself is pretty pathetic.

Edited June 23, 2015 by StrangeSox

[Y2HH]

The fact that so many Americans seem to have more of an objection to calls for taking the flag of white supremacists off of state capitols than to the flag itself is pretty pathetic.

 

See, this I have no issue with...I get this.

 

It's that it's being taken further than that, and it feels downright cheap now.

[StrangeSox]

I'm sure all the white supremacists in the world will now reform their wayward ways and become good people since they lost their icon.

 

Can I post a few more times and a few more quotes from people explicitly saying that this isn't some magic bullet that will solve everything and that nobody believes it is?

 

At the very least, the states of South Carolina and Mississippi will be reforming their ways and will stop flying a symbol of white supremacy. It's an incremental step, but it's a step in the right direction.

[southsider2k5]

White supremacist kills black people for upteenth time in southern history, people ask to remove symbols promoting white supremacy.

 

Seems pretty relevant. It's only irrelevant to those who seem to not believe that this man was not motivated by what he explicitly said he was motivated by.

 

Unless you are trying to tell me that the confederate flag motivated him to kill, over everything else, then yes, this is not the thing we should be talking about.

 

Gun Control at least makes sense to discuss, because that at least had the potential to stop this. The rebel flag? Not so much.

 

Think about it, with police brutality, we actually talked about police tactics. Man goes and kills a bunch of black people, shouldn't we be talking about race relation, instead of symbology? Nah, this will distract people from the real issues because no one is comfortable with actually talking about race relations in this country because some one will get offended.

[StrangeSox]

See, this I have no issue with...I get this.

 

It's that it's being taken further than that, and it feels downright cheap now.

 

I haven't seen many activists calling for WalMart etc. to stop selling this merchandise. I understand that it seems opportunistic, but I still accept that crass commercial motivations or not, it's a positive good if a symbol of white supremacy becomes unacceptable to display prominently and to sell for profit.

[Y2HH]

Unless you are trying to tell me that the confederate flag motivated him to kill, over everything else, then yes, this is not the thing we should be talking about.

 

Gun Control at least makes sense to discuss, because that at least had the potential to stop this. The rebel flag? Not so much.

 

Think about it, with police brutality, we actually talked about police tactics. Man goes and kills a bunch of black people, shouldn't we be talking about race relation, instead of symbology? Nah, this will distract people from the real issues because no one is comfortable with actually talking about race relations in this country because some one will get offended.

 

Pretty much sums up my feelings at this point.

 

Well said.

 

The Wal-Mart's and eBays have made this "removal of a symbol" feel shallow and fake, because you know they did it for the publicity...not because they actually care.

[southsider2k5]

I haven't seen many activists calling for WalMart etc. to stop selling this merchandise. I understand that it seems opportunistic, but I still accept that crass commercial motivations or not, it's a positive good if a symbol of white supremacy becomes unacceptable to display prominently and to sell for profit.

 

Nah, now you just pushed sales underground and made it more profitable.

[StrangeSox]

Unless you are trying to tell me that the confederate flag motivated him to kill, over everything else, then yes, this is not the thing we should be talking about.

 

Gun Control at least makes sense to discuss, because that at least had the potential to stop this. The rebel flag? Not so much.

 

Think about it, with police brutality, we actually talked about police tactics. Man goes and kills a bunch of black people, shouldn't we be talking about race relation, instead of symbology? Nah, this will distract people from the real issues because no one is comfortable with actually talking about race relations in this country because some one will get offended.

 

That state governments still fly a symbol of white supremacy and that so many try to make excuses for it is emblematic of race relations. If it's this damn hard to get a symbol taken down over objections, why do you think the people who oppose removing white supremacist symbols are at all interested in "actually talking about race relations"?

[StrangeSox]

Nah, now you just pushed sales underground and made it more profitable.

Great argument for WalMart selling Waffen SS gear and Nazi paraphernalia.

[southsider2k5]

That state governments still fly a symbol of white supremacy and that so many try to make excuses for it is emblematic of race relations. If it's this damn hard to get a symbol taken down over objections, why do you think the people who oppose removing white supremacist symbols are at all interested in "actually talking about race relations"?

s

Who cares what they think. You aren't fixing stupid. What you can do is work on fixing racial problems in this country because of ill-formed perspectives on both sides of the aisle. Instead the real issue get punted in favor of a symbolic one. Then the next time this happens, everyone wonders again why it is happening. The true opportunities are being missed while targeting the trees instead of the forest.

[StrangeSox]

Lost in all of this "who cares, symbols are meaningless" protestation about taking down the flag is an argument that taking down the flags somehow precludes anything else.

 

I don't see why state governments displaying symbols of white supremacy isn't a "real issue." I don't see why removing symbols of white supremacy from government displays isn't a step in the right direction. I don't see how removing those symbols harms further advances in any way.

 

Why shouldn't we care what people who support flying white supremacist symbols think? They're every bit a part of the "real issue" as anyone else, and in states like South Carolina, they represent a majority (in 2014, 61% of South Carolinians felt the flag should still fly and 42% felt 'strongly'). Denial of our history and our legacy is central to those ill-formed perspectives, and coddling Lost Cause nostalgia and ongoing Confederate celebration only adds to that.

Edited June 23, 2015 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

The fact that so many Americans seem to have more of an objection to calls for taking the flag of white supremacists off of state capitols than to the flag itself is pretty pathetic.

 

No one with a brain objects to that, it's the distraction that I have an issue with.

[southsider2k5]

Lost in all of this "who cares, symbols are meaningless" protestation about taking down the flag is an argument that taking down the flags somehow precludes anything else.

 

I don't see why state governments displaying symbols of white supremacy isn't a "real issue." I don't see why removing symbols of white supremacy from government displays isn't a step in the right direction. I don't see how removing those symbols harms further advances in any way.

 

So what else is being done? I am not seeing anything of value. Did our President have a big discussion about race relations that I missed? Did the governments of MS and SC bring sides to the table to address the extremist points of view?

 

Everything I see has guys taking down the flag, calling it a victory, and walking away.

[Jenksismyhero]

Lost in all of this "who cares, symbols are meaningless" protestation about taking down the flag is an argument that taking down the flags somehow precludes anything else.

 

I don't see why state governments displaying symbols of white supremacy isn't a "real issue." I don't see why removing symbols of white supremacy from government displays isn't a step in the right direction. I don't see how removing those symbols harms further advances in any way.

 

Why shouldn't we care what people who support flying white supremacist symbols think? They're every bit a part of the "real issue" as anyone else, and in states like South Carolina, they represent a majority (in 2014, 61% of South Carolinians felt the flag should still fly and 42% felt 'strongly').

 

Seriously? Have you been hiding under a rock the last 30 years? The nation has the patience of a 2 year old with stuff like this. As soon as another story hits in a day or two, this thing will be forgotten. How's that Baltimore police story coming along? Lots of movement there i'm sure.

[StrangeSox]

No one with a brain objects to that, it's the distraction that I have an issue with.

A majority of Carolinians object to it. I think people who keep insisting it's a "distraction" have an issue with the desire to see it taken down. What is it a distraction from and why aren't you advocating for that?

Edited June 23, 2015 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

Seriously? Have you been hiding under a rock the last 30 years? The nation has the patience of a 2 year old with stuff like this. As soon as another story hits in a day or two, this thing will be forgotten. How's that Baltimore police story coming along? Lots of movement there i'm sure.

So let's say instead nobody said a word about the flag and we just talked in platitudes about "race relations" and "this psychotic lone wolf." What are we left with when this thing is 'forgotten'?

[StrangeSox]

So what else is being done? I am not seeing anything of value. Did our President have a big discussion about race relations that I missed? Did the governments of MS and SC bring sides to the table to address the extremist points of view?

 

Everything I see has guys taking down the flag, calling it a victory, and walking away.

 

What would you like to see "done?" What would it even mean to "bring sides to the table to address the extremist points of view?" Sit down with some white supremacist militia groups and discuss ideology with them over a cup of tea?

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

So let's say instead nobody said a word about the flag and we just talked in platitudes about "race relations" and "this psychotic lone wolf." What are we left with when this thing is 'forgotten'?

 

I think it would be far healthier for this country to ignore this s***. Don't give this guy the time of day. Don't show his picture, don't spread his name, don't cite to his website, etc. It's a tragedy, the survivors deserve some recognition, but leave it at that. Making it a story, in particular a story about race relations or a stupid flag, only emboldens these crazies to commit these acts for publicity.

[Y2HH]

So let's say instead nobody said a word about the flag and we just talked in platitudes about "race relations" and "this psychotic lone wolf." What are we left with when this thing is 'forgotten'?

 

So in either case, no progress gets made...so what did this actually accomplish other than get people talking about Walmart?

[StrangeSox]

I think it would be far healthier for this country to ignore this s***. Don't give this guy the time of day. Don't show his picture, don't spread his name, don't cite to his website, etc. It's a tragedy, the survivors deserve some recognition, but leave it at that. Making it a story, in particular a story about race relations or a stupid flag, only emboldens these crazies to commit these acts for publicity.

 

I think it would be monumentally stupid to completely ignore the reasons that people do things, the ideologies that drive them and the sources of those ideologies and just chalk it all up to 'crazy'.

 

Nobody "made" it a story about race except the guy who killed nine black people because of their race and his racist beliefs. You cannot separate that from the story, and you cannot separate the legacy of white supremacist violence in this country.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

A majority of Carolinians object to it. I think people who keep insisting it's a "distraction" have an issue with the desire to see it taken down. What is it a distraction from and why aren't you advocating for that?

 

The assumption that calling this a distraction means you want to see the flag fly is insulting. That flag could never fly again, and I would be thrilled. The flag isn't the root of the problem. It is a symptom. It is a leaf on an old oak tree. Picking a leaf off the tree keeps the tree just as strong as ever.

[StrangeSox]

So in either case, no progress gets made...so what did this actually accomplish other than get people talking about Walmart?

A symbol of white supremacy gets taken off of government buildings and becomes more universally recognized for what it symbolizes. I'd say that's at least a small amount of progress.

[southsider2k5]

I think it would be monumentally stupid to completely ignore the reasons that people do things, the ideologies that drive them and the sources of those ideologies and just chalk it all up to 'crazy'.

 

Nobody "made" it a story about race except the guy who killed nine black people because of their race and his racist beliefs. You cannot separate that from the story, and you cannot separate the legacy of white supremacist violence in this country.

 

Pretending the flag is the problem is ignoring all of the rest of the bolded.