Multiple Victims in Charleston SC Church Shooting

[StrangeSox]

The assumption that calling this a distraction means you want to see the flag fly is insulting.

 

Insisting that people who want to see symbols of white supremacy removed from government buildings are only talking about distractions and don't care about "real issues" is insulting.

[southsider2k5]

Insisting that people who want to see symbols of white supremacy removed from government buildings are only talking about distractions and don't care about "real issues" is insulting.

 

So what is being done?

[StrangeSox]

Pretending the flag is the problem

 

I don't know how many ways it can be said that nobody believes that. The flag is a symbol, and people want to see a symbol of hatred expunged. Nobody is under the delusion that this will somehow magically solve racism.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think it would be monumentally stupid to completely ignore the reasons that people do things, the ideologies that drive them and the sources of those ideologies and just chalk it all up to 'crazy'.

 

Nobody "made" it a story about race except the guy who killed nine black people because of their race and his racist beliefs. You cannot separate that from the story, and you cannot separate the legacy of white supremacist violence in this country.

 

That's where you and I differ. You're not talking this guy out of his hate. You're not re-educating him. He's not a logical person, clearly. But if you want to keep on with that pipe dream, go ahead. Just know he felt compelled to act because no one else has. He wanted to make an example to start a race war. Maybe if he knew that this sort of act would never get any coverage, he wouldn't have done it.

[Jenksismyhero]

Insisting that people who want to see symbols of white supremacy removed from government buildings are only talking about distractions and don't care about "real issues" is insulting.

 

Then stop talking about it.

 

Pray tell, SS, what should the focus be here? How are you going to prevent this type of crime going forward? What sort of education would you give this young man to prevent the conclusions he's come to in his life?

[StrangeSox]

So what is being done?

Southern Poverty Law Center has been advocating against radical white supremacist groups for years and continues to do so now. Groups like #BlackLivesMatter have formed over recent events and will continue to advocate. The NAACP continues to advocate.

 

What is it that isn't being "done" that you think would or could be if people weren't trying to get a symbol of white supremacy taken down?

[StrangeSox]

That's where you and I differ. You're not talking this guy out of his hate. You're not re-educating him. He's not a logical person, clearly. But if you want to keep on with that pipe dream, go ahead. Just know he felt compelled to act because no one else has. He wanted to make an example to start a race war. Maybe if he knew that this sort of act would never get any coverage, he wouldn't have done it.

Nobody is specifically concerned about one individual. It is obviously larger than that, and it's about the climates and cultures that breed the Dylan Storms and how to work to end those. Pretending that they don't exist, don't matter and cant' influence anyone isn't the way to address them.

[StrangeSox]

Then stop talking about it.

 

The removal of white supremacist symbols from government buildings is part of the "real issue."

 

Pray tell, SS, what should the focus be here? How are you going to prevent this type of crime going forward? What sort of education would you give this young man to prevent the conclusions he's come to in his life?

 

No, you're the ones claiming it's all just a big distraction here. You tell us what we're all being distracted from.

[Jenksismyhero]

Nobody is specifically concerned about one individual. It is obviously larger than that, and it's about the climates and cultures that breed the Dylan Storms and how to work to end those. Pretending that they don't exist, don't matter and cant' influence anyone isn't the way to address them.

 

What climate and culture exists that make people think it's ok or even logical to kill 9 innocent black people? He thought black people were inferior. He though black men were raping white women to such a degree he needed to act. I mean, the guy's not insane, but he's not exactly with it either. Even a town like Charleston that flies a s***ty flag is not THAT bad in 2015.

 

I don't pretend they don't exist. But i also don't pretend that normal people can change their minds.

[Jenksismyhero]

The removal of white supremacist symbols from government buildings is part of the "real issue."

 

So again it plays a part in this and his somehow, in someway, to blame. Which takes some of the heat off this guy, even if its just a little bit.

 

No, you're the ones claiming it's all just a big distraction here. You tell us what we're all being distracted from.

 

The actual victims? The church? The community? I'd say the national news coverage is about a 10:1 ratio in flag controversy to actual victim reporting so far.

[StrangeSox]

So again it plays a part in this and his somehow, in someway, to blame. Which takes some of the heat off this guy, even if its just a little bit.

 

How does it remove any of his culpability beyond recognizing that culture and other peoples' ideas influence us all? The flag isn't "to blame," but it is a symbol of the ideology that led him to do this.

 

The actual victims? The church? The community? I'd say the national news coverage is about a 10:1 ratio in flag controversy to actual victim reporting so far.

 

But that there is even a "controversy" in taking down white supremacist symbols from state buildings is indicative of the problem in the first place. People rightly want the flag taken down. Should the media not report on that? Should they just tell black activists "that's not important, talk about something else"?

[bmags]

Unless you are trying to tell me that the confederate flag motivated him to kill, over everything else, then yes, this is not the thing we should be talking about.

 

Gun Control at least makes sense to discuss, because that at least had the potential to stop this. The rebel flag? Not so much.

 

Think about it, with police brutality, we actually talked about police tactics. Man goes and kills a bunch of black people, shouldn't we be talking about race relation, instead of symbology? Nah, this will distract people from the real issues because no one is comfortable with actually talking about race relations in this country because some one will get offended.

 

That you don't think a state government flying a flag that represents white supremacy is dealing with race relations I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Jenksismyhero]

How does it remove any of his culpability beyond recognizing that culture and other peoples' ideas influence us all? The flag isn't "to blame," but it is a symbol of the ideology that led him to do this.

 

Because it's providing some excuse, like maybe he wouldn't think like he does/did if he didn't live in a town that used a racist flag proudly. It's akin to people clamoring to remove Penthouse or something from print after a terrible rape or sexual assault because it's a mysogonist and sexist magazine. One has nothing to do with the other unless you're willing to say that it contributed to it in some way. It "fostered" the view.

 

But that there is even a "controversy" in taking down white supremacist symbols from state buildings is indicative of the problem in the first place. People rightly want the flag taken down. Should the media not report on that? Should they just tell black activists "that's not important, talk about something else"?

 

I don't think there is a controversy. Seems to me nearly everyone is behind taking it down. The only controversial part is why we're talking about it as we are, as if it's somehow connected to what happened, and the fakeness of companies trying to gain some PR points.

[StrangeSox]

Because it's providing some excuse, like maybe he wouldn't think like he does/did if he didn't live in a town that used a racist flag proudly. It's akin to people clamoring to remove Penthouse or something from print after a terrible rape or sexual assault because it's a mysogonist and sexist magazine. One has nothing to do with the other unless you're willing to say that it contributed to it in some way. It "fostered" the view.

 

"Maybe white supremacy would be slightly less widespread if we stopped publicly endorsing symbols of it" doesn't seem like much of a stretch. When white supremacist history is coddled and soft-peddled, it's going to foster white supremacist views. The analogy to Penthouse doesn't work because Penthouse isn't a symbol of pro-rape ideology, wasn't central to the rapists' self-proclaimed motivations and isn't proudly displayed by the state government where the atrocity happened.

 

I don't think there is a controversy. Seems to me nearly everyone is behind taking it down.

 

Some are, now, after a pretty rapid shift (Haley's first reaction was that she didn't see a problem with it). As recently as last year, a big majority of SCer's supported flying it. Many still try to downplay its legacy.

 

The only controversial part is why we're talking about it as we are, as if it's somehow connected to what happened,

 

Probably because it was a white supremacist terrorist attack on a black church, he openly embraced the flag and the ideology it represents, and it looked particularly awful for the flag representing his ideology to still be flying at full mast while the US and state flags were at half-mast directly behind Haley when she gave her first press conference.

 

and the fakeness of companies trying to gain some PR points.

 

I don't disagree with that, but really I don't care so much what their motivations are if their end-result of their actions are good. I think those moves are far less important than ending state endorsement of the symbol, though.

Edited June 23, 2015 by StrangeSox

[Iwritecode]

I don't think there is a controversy. Seems to me nearly everyone is behind taking it down.

 

If that were the case, it would've been taken down a long time ago.

[Balta1701]

You can't say that a single use of the word N**** was what turned this guy into a murderer.

 

That is not a justification for using the word.

 

You guys know better than this. You guys know the kind of environment this person grew up in. Hell I got plenty of it in Northwestern Indiana, let alone when I was in the South. The community looks the other way, they rant about how the (insert racist word) are ruining things, how they're just not good enough or smart enough, and eventually something clicks.

 

Yes it's just one. Yes it's just getting rid of one flag. It's only 1 step along the lines of "neutralizing this kind of hateful environment". But at some point you do have to tell them no. You do have to tell a person it's not ok to fly a racist symbol. You do have to tell someone that it's not ok to rant about the (insert racist words). And when no one has the decency to do those things, then this environment festers, smolders, until it gets some air and erupts again.

 

That's why you do the right thing.

[Y2HH]

Yes it's just one. Yes it's just getting rid of one flag. It's only 1 step along the lines of "neutralizing this kind of hateful environment". But at some point you do have to tell them no. You do have to tell a person it's not ok to fly a racist symbol. You do have to tell someone that it's not ok to rant about the (insert racist words). And when no one has the decency to do those things, then this environment festers, smolders, until it gets some air and erupts again.

 

That's why you do the right thing.

 

I agree on doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do...NOT because it's "all of a sudden" the right thing to do since people are paying attention for a few minutes.

 

Where I disagree is that this made a difference. No, it didn't. All this did was become the scapegoat to sweep a grizzly story under the rug, and for the majority of America, that's exactly what has happened. We pointed at a flag and raised arms to get it taken down (which hasn't even happened yet) and if/when the flag gets taken down, this story will die down or have already been forgotten, and everyone will take their short attention spans and move on to the next big thing.

 

That is, until the another grizzly scene unfolds and we look for a new "flag" to point at as a symbol for what occurred.

 

This starts and ends IN THE f***ING HOME, not on a flag pole. Until parents STOP passively or actively teaching their kids to become racists, this will continue to occur no matter how many flags you remove.

[EvilMonkey]

I agree on doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do...NOT because it's "all of a sudden" the right thing to do since people are paying attention for a few minutes.

 

Where I disagree is that this made a difference. No, it didn't. All this did was become the scapegoat to sweep a grizzly story under the rug, and for the majority of America, that's exactly what has happened. We pointed at a flag and raised arms to get it taken down (which hasn't even happened yet) and if/when the flag gets taken down, this story will die down or have already been forgotten, and everyone will take their short attention spans and move on to the next big thing.

 

That is, until the another grizzly scene unfolds and we look for a new "flag" to point at as a symbol for what occurred.

 

This starts and ends IN THE f***ING HOME, not on a flag pole. Until parents STOP passively or actively teaching their kids to become racists, this will continue to occur no matter how many flags you remove.

Yes.

[Balta1701]

This starts and ends IN THE f***ING HOME, not on a flag pole. Until parents STOP passively or actively teaching their kids to become racists, this will continue to occur no matter how many flags you remove.

What exactly do you think displaying the Confederate flag is?

[Y2HH]

What exactly do you think displaying the Confederate flag is?

 

If it's in the home, and you tell your kids it's because you love slavery or hate black people you'd have a point, but I don't think the majority use that flag as that anymore. I don't even view it as racist so much as a symbol of the south, so it's not doing a very good job of teaching racism.

 

Bottom line is a racist can point at a TV and use it as a symbol for passively teaching racism.

 

The point of my previous post stands. Keep taking down flags... They'll find more.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Y2HH

[Balta1701]

If it's in the home, and you tell your kids it's because you love slavery or hate black people you'd have a point, but I don't think the majority use that flag as that anymore. I don't even view it as racist so much as a symbol of the south, so it's not doing a very good job of teaching racism.

And that's part of the problem. The Symbol of the South is a racist symbol. Flying it as a symbol of the south is being passively racist at best, if not actively. It needs to not be.

[StrangeSox]

If it's in the home, and you tell your kids it's because you love slavery or hate black people you'd have a point, but I don't think the majority use that flag as that anymore. I don't even view it as racist so much as a symbol of the south, so it's not doing a very good job of teaching racism.

It is literally the symbol of a white supremacist, slave-owning and then apartheid south. Romanticizing that history provides excuses for it. That's the reason South Carolina started flying it in 1961. It's the reason George Wallace adopted it in his presidential campaign. It's the reason it saw a big resurgence starting in the 1950's. Continuing to embrace that symbol is at best passively excusing the evil it has stood for throughout its existence.

Edited June 23, 2015 by StrangeSox

[Y2HH]

And that's part of the problem. The Symbol of the South is a racist symbol. Flying it as a symbol of the south is being passively racist at best, if not actively. It needs to not be.

 

Yes. Sorry I don't fit the old mold and view it as a racist symbol, even if that was its historic use. Today, it's just a symbol of the south. It doesn't make me want to hate black people.

[StrangeSox]

Yes. Sorry I don't fit the old mold and view it as a racist symbol, even if that was its historic use. Today, it's just a symbol of the south. It doesn't make me want to hate black people.

 

Well, the white south, anyway.

 

[Y2HH]

Well, the white south, anyway.

 

If that's how you wish to view it, sure.

 

It's just a flag.

 

And now it's just a distraction from the real conversation.