Multiple Victims in Charleston SC Church Shooting

[Y2HH]

...and now Google has followed suit. Baby thrown out with the bath water.

[Y2HH]

I read somewhere this morning that you can still but nazi stuff on amazon but not anything with a confederate flag. Not a surprise. Gotta jump on that bandwagon while you can.

 

It was eBay, and true. Also of note, there ARE legit collectors of WW2 and Civil War memorabilia, from the allies and enemies/the north and the south that can no longer use these services for what was legitimate business. Just more collateral damage due to obvious overstep.

[caulfield12]

http://news.yahoo.com/vandals-target-confe...-053121976.html

 

I might even have to agree with y2hh on this...it's one thing if it's Nathan Bedford Forrest-related, who was close to brilliant but as savage as it gets in terms of military tactics, but quite another with some of these generic monuments.

 

How far do we go, not teaching anything about the Civil war for fear of offending someone?

 

Do Iraqi americans have the right to deface Gulf War/Operation Enduring Freedom statues if their relatives were accidentally killed by a drone strike? Can't Vietnamese whose daughters were raped at My Lai justifiably deface that sacred Washington monument? Heck, shouldn't the Jefferson Memorial also be attacked, and Mount Vernon, where George Washington kept slaves? What about Arlington National Cemetery....the Lee/Custis family owned that land until it was taken by the North when Robert E. Lee decided he couldn't fight against his home state and chose to lead the Army of Northern Virginia.

[cabiness42]

This flag offends me. It should be banned.

 

 

 

[EvilMonkey]

This flag offends me. It should be banned.

 

Don't worry, we'll get there soon enough.

[Balta1701]

Do we get to pick and choose which slippery slope we slide down? Because I want to slide down the one that takes us from fewer racist symbols to fewer racists in general.

[Jenksismyhero]

Do we get to pick and choose which slippery slope we slide down? Because I want to slide down the one that takes us from fewer racist symbols to fewer racists in general.

 

Ends always justify the means, no matter the collateral damage, amiright? 'Merica.

[StrangeSox]

The means of "asking for state governments to stop flying the flag" seems pretty reasonable.

[Balta1701]

Ends always justify the means, no matter the collateral damage, amiright? 'Merica.

Why else would "Google and Amazon are no longer selling confederate flag merchandise this is a slippery slope to something awful!" be used as an argument?

 

The ends are bad therefore the means, getting rid of a racist symbol over a state house, must also be bad, based on your logic right?

[Jenksismyhero]

The means of "asking for state governments to stop flying the flag" seems pretty reasonable.

 

Absolutely. But we all know the next step is removing monuments, renaming streets, etc. And that's part of it.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I'm fine with some of that, too. Why do you want to continue to honor racist slave owning traitors to the county

[Jenksismyhero]

Why else would "Google and Amazon are no longer selling confederate flag merchandise this is a slippery slope to something awful!" be used as an argument?

 

The ends are bad therefore the means, getting rid of a racist symbol over a state house, must also be bad, based on your logic right?

 

Depends on how far you want to take the ends. Seems to me you guys would be thrilled at a completely sanitized society where nothing potentially or remotely offensive is allowed to exist. This isn't specific to just racist flags either, but a variety of issues over the years.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm fine with some of that, too. Why do you want to continue to honor racist slave owning traitors to the county

 

Because I don't believe in whitewashing our past sins. It's better to leave them and use them as an example of what not to do. When you start erasing history then you just end up forgetting it.

 

edit: not to mention, again, where do you draw the line? When are the means not justified? If you're going to be legit about it, let's rid ourselves of the vast majority of monuments in Washington. Let's get rid of Mount Rushmore. I'm sure you could find a basis for getting rid of just about every monument out there if you really wanted to argue that its offensive to someone.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

Because I don't believe in whitewashing our past sins. It's better to leave them and use them as an example of what not to do. When you start erasing history then you just end up forgetting it.

 

edit: not to mention, again, where do you draw the line? When are the means not justified? If you're going to be legit about it, let's rid ourselves of the vast majority of monuments in Washington. Let's get rid of Mount Rushmore. I'm sure you could find a basis for getting rid of just about every monument out there if you really wanted to argue that its offensive to someone.

You know the amazing thing? We're human beings, we're allowed to apply judgment to these things. That's of course why the slippery slope argument is silly, but it would still be nice if we could slippery slope our way to generally more equitable treatment of african americans and others generally.

[Jenksismyhero]

You know the amazing thing? We're human beings, we're allowed to apply judgment to these things. That's of course why the slippery slope argument is silly, but it would still be nice if we could slippery slope our way to generally more equitable treatment of african americans and others generally.

 

Not really, because if you argue against it you're called a supporter of racist white supremacists.

[Balta1701]

Not really, because if you argue against it you're called a supporter of racist white supremacists.

It is my judgment that literally anyone who flies that flag is accurately described by that phrase. Even the "southern pride" explanation is BS because its deliberately excluding the part of the south that would never fly that flag...who have their own southern heritage that is being excluded.

 

I can similarly look upon Thomas Jefferson and simultaneously believe that he was an important President, that he wrote some of the most powerful words ever penned by a human "All men are created equal", and then recognize that he did not himself live up to those words. If it is the judgment of a future time that his failings become more important to remember than his work...that is one I would disagree with but doing so is a moral, human, emotional decision and those sorts of things can change over time.

[Jenksismyhero]

It is my judgment that literally anyone who flies that flag is accurately described by that phrase. Even the "southern pride" explanation is BS because its deliberately excluding the part of the south that would never fly that flag...who have their own southern heritage that is being excluded.

 

I can similarly look upon Thomas Jefferson and simultaneously believe that he was an important President, that he wrote some of the most powerful words ever penned by a human "All men are created equal", and then recognize that he did not himself live up to those words. If it is the judgment of a future time that his failings become more important to remember than his work...that is one I would disagree with but doing so is a moral, human, emotional decision and those sorts of things can change over time.

 

Ok, so it's cool to honor someone who was an actual slave owning white supremacist that raped his "wife" slave because he also did good things? Just trying to find the line here.

 

What about this guy?

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/lake...0625-story.html

 

Historian or evil white supremacist supporter?

[Balta1701]

Ok, so it's cool to honor someone who was an actual slave owning white supremacist that raped his "wife" slave because he also did good things? Just trying to find the line here.

 

What about this guy?

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/lake...0625-story.html

 

Historian or evil white supremacist supporter?

Even the greatest people in history are flawed in many ways. They're people. Accepting that does not diminish the good they did.

[Y2HH]

I'm fine with some of that, too. Why do you want to continue to honor racist slave owning traitors to the county

 

May as well burn the f***ing constitution in that case.

[cabiness42]

Because I don't believe in whitewashing our past sins. It's better to leave them and use them as an example of what not to do. When you start erasing history then you just end up forgetting it.

 

edit: not to mention, again, where do you draw the line? When are the means not justified? If you're going to be legit about it, let's rid ourselves of the vast majority of monuments in Washington. Let's get rid of Mount Rushmore. I'm sure you could find a basis for getting rid of just about every monument out there if you really wanted to argue that its offensive to someone.

 

I think there's a fine line here. A statue in a public building is interpreted by the general public as honoring the person, not as a figure in history who may have done really good or really bad things. Clearly these people need to remain a part of our public conscience within the context of the study of history, but putting a statue of them up in a public place goes beyond that.

 

I do find it very ironic that Washington and Jefferson get free passes though. Somehow owning slaves in 1790 isn't as bad as owning slaves in 1860. A few years back I went to Charlottesville for a week for training, and one of the co-workers who went with me is black. He was not in a very good mood after the trip to and tour of Monticello, and I don't blame him.

[Jenksismyhero]

Shoot, we still give passes today. Like with this asshole:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd

 

Proud KKK member and Obama had to, i'm sure out of professional obligation only, eulogize him. I remember all those long stories and op-eds about him. Oh wait, no he was a democrat.

[Kyyle23]

Shoot, we still give passes today. Like with this asshole:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd

 

Proud KKK member and Obama had to, i'm sure out of professional obligation only, eulogize him. I remember all those long stories and op-eds about him. Oh wait, no he was a democrat.

 

In 1946, Byrd wrote a letter to a Grand Wizard stating, "The Klan is needed today as never before, and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia and in every state in the nation."[20] However, when running for the United States House of Representatives in 1952, he announced "After about a year, I became disinterested, quit paying my dues, and dropped my membership in the organization. During the nine years that have followed, I have never been interested in the Klan." He said he had joined the Klan because he felt it offered excitement and was anti-communist.[12]

 

In 1997, Byrd told an interviewer he would encourage young people to become involved in politics but also warned, "Be sure you avoid the Ku Klux Klan. Don't get that albatross around your neck. Once you've made that mistake, you inhibit your operations in the political arena."[21] In his last autobiography, Byrd explained that he was a KKK member because he "was sorely afflicted with tunnel vision — a jejune and immature outlook — seeing only what I wanted to see because I thought the Klan could provide an outlet for my talents and ambitions."[22] Byrd also said, in 2005, "I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. I apologized a thousand times ... and I don't mind apologizing over and over again. I can't erase what happened."[12]

 

 

Seems like he recognized how wrong he was and at least attempted to rectify it. He also acknowledged that he made a bad choice and would have to live with it his whole life

[Jenksismyhero]

Seems like he recognized how wrong he was and at least attempted to rectify it. He also acknowledged that he made a bad choice and would have to live with it his whole life

 

Yeah I never bought that. It became opportunistic for him to learn that black people like their children just as much as white people (his actual epiphany). How do you come from a place where you truly believe blacks are inferior and unequal and shouldn't be in the same room as you to the complete opposite? He was in his 20 and 30's too. It's not like he was a brain washed 8 year old growing up in a racist house.

 

[Kyyle23]

Yeah I never bought that. It became opportunistic for him to learn that black people like their children just as much as white people (his actual epiphany). How do you come from a place where you truly believe blacks are inferior and unequal and shouldn't be in the same room as you to the complete opposite? He was in his 20 and 30's too. It's not like he was a brain washed 8 year old growing up in a racist house.

 

People change. Neither you or me will ever know if he ever really felt that way, but i can tell you right now that I certainly dont think now at my age(37) the same way I did at 20.

 

You dont buy it, thats fine. But you are presenting Byrd as an unabashed unapologetic racist who never repented, and Obama went and eulogized him

[southsider2k5]

You know the amazing thing? We're human beings, we're allowed to apply judgment to these things. That's of course why the slippery slope argument is silly, but it would still be nice if we could slippery slope our way to generally more equitable treatment of african americans and others generally.

 

Except where the government applies it for us...