Multiple Victims in Charleston SC Church Shooting

[bmags]

I would be willing to believe southerners DID become more states rights/anti-fed centric after the civil war in which they took up arms against their own country and lost, and then for 15 years were basically not allowed representation in the federal government.

 

Of course, it should have been a lot longer, and reconstruction should have been fully seen through, but it did not, because people like Jenks would look back and say "well, they just wanted freedom to govern themselves' rather then "wow these people took up arms against the country to create a white supremacist empire, we should probably take control until that stops"

[StrangeSox]

"well, they just wanted freedom to govern themselves'

 

Usually when people talk about what "The South" wanted to do, they're talking about a minority comprised of wealthy slaveowners who controlled their state and local governments. But it's worth pointing out that South Carolina's population was just over 40% black in 1860. Combine that with a minority of whites who did not favor slavery and you're not even looking at a majority of people in South Carolina wanting this.

[Jenksismyhero]

I would be willing to believe southerners DID become more states rights/anti-fed centric after the civil war in which they took up arms against their own country and lost, and then for 15 years were basically not allowed representation in the federal government.

 

Of course, it should have been a lot longer, and reconstruction should have been fully seen through, but it did not, because people like Jenks would look back and say "well, they just wanted freedom to govern themselves' rather then "wow these people took up arms against the country to create a white supremacist empire, we should probably take control until that stops"

 

That's not at all what i'm saying/what I would say. They all committed treason in my book. I'm simply stating where I think the whole fascination with the confederate flag comes from today. And it comes from that "we're different and proud of it" mantra of the Civil War. We'll agree to disagree on whether that was part of the argument leading up to the Civil War. I'm still not sure how you don't think that was part of it (again, PART, not THE reason) when a lot of the argument was the South was going to die economically without slavery and that slavery was a great thing. Yes they tried everything, including federal power to keep slavery around, but at some point they decide that for survival they needed to band together and leave.

 

Let me ask you guys this: in 2015, you've got (or recently had) Walmart and other stores selling tons of confederate gear. You have billboards proudly displaying the confederate flag on billboards and barn sides. You have the confederate flag raised in public squares. Do you REALLY believe that's because people of the south want to enslave blacks again and live in a white supremacist empire? If not, what % of people down there do you think actually believes that? I'm going with maybe 1%. KKK members, aryan army members and wack jobs like this guy in SC. No one else.

 

[StrangeSox]

You do not need to go to full-blown re-enslavement for it to be a symbol of white supremacy. I have to believe that an overwhelming majority of people who proudly display or support displaying the confederate flag hold some pretty racist beliefs.

[bmags]

That's not at all what i'm saying/what I would say. They all committed treason in my book. I'm simply stating where I think the whole fascination with the confederate flag comes from today. And it comes from that "we're different and proud of it" mantra of the Civil War. We'll agree to disagree on whether that was part of the argument leading up to the Civil War. I'm still not sure how you don't think that was part of it (again, PART, not THE reason) when a lot of the argument was the South was going to die economically without slavery and that slavery was a great thing. Yes they tried everything, including federal power to keep slavery around, but at some point they decide that for survival they needed to band together and leave.

 

Let me ask you guys this: in 2015, you've got (or recently had) Walmart and other stores selling tons of confederate gear. You have billboards proudly displaying the confederate flag on billboards and barn sides. You have the confederate flag raised in public squares. Do you REALLY believe that's because people of the south want to enslave blacks again and live in a white supremacist empire? If not, what % of people down there do you think actually believes that? I'm going with maybe 1%. KKK members, aryan army members and wack jobs like this guy in SC. No one else.

 

Do I think they want to build a white supremacist empire and reinstitute slavery? no

 

Do I think their purposeful revisionism of their history is dangerous to the country? Absolutely.

 

The south frankly never truly dealt with the reckoning that they caused. Their use of terrorism to undermine reconstruction was one of the darkest times of this country just after they caused THE darkest time in this country. They have been led by idiots for years and convinced themselves that industrialization would be bad for them, because they were white supremacists.

 

They are very stupid, and glorification of treasonous stupidity and trying to tell everyone it's not about the central idea that it WAS ABOUT is disgusting and will lead to poisonous results.

 

They are lying about history and they need to stop being coddled about it.

[Y2HH]

Usually when people talk about what "The South" wanted to do, they're talking about a minority comprised of wealthy slaveowners who controlled their state and local governments. But it's worth pointing out that South Carolina's population was just over 40% black in 1860. Combine that with a minority of whites who did not favor slavery and you're not even looking at a majority of people in South Carolina wanting this.

 

Thank you for pointing this out.

 

It seems to me that a lot of people view any person living in the south before/during the Civil War as a slave owner...and I think it gets lost/forgotten that MOST people didn't own slaves, but lived on small prairie farms trying to get by.

 

Now, with that in mind, I'd like to add to this that MOST of the people that fought for the south in the Civil War did NOT do so because they owned or wanted to own slaves, but because it's where they happened to live and didn't have a choice. This pertains to why I don't view what has become the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, so much as a hijacked symbol of racism, BECAUSE a lot of the people that died beneath that flag did so because they were caught in a bad situation and forced to fight a war they didn't have any stake in, other than having the misfortune of living there. For those people that look at that flag, they see it as a symbol of their ancestors death...and I think, by and large, they're the majority, NOT the racist minority that carries that flag like a symbol of their superiority.

[Y2HH]

You do not need to go to full-blown re-enslavement for it to be a symbol of white supremacy. I have to believe that an overwhelming majority of people who proudly display or support displaying the confederate flag hold some pretty racist beliefs.

 

I think that's a product of the people that tend to flag wave (regardless of what flag it is) also tend to be that kind of person.

 

I love the 4th of July, but I don't run down the street with the stars and stripes chanting USA like Hacksaw Jim Duggan just came out...the people that do that sort of thing tend to be the exact kind of person you're talking about.

[StrangeSox]

Thank you for pointing this out.

 

It seems to me that a lot of people view any person living in the south before/during the Civil War as a slave owner...and I think it gets lost/forgotten that MOST people didn't own slaves, but lived on small prairie farms trying to get by.

 

Now, with that in mind, I'd like to add to this that MOST of the people that fought for the south in the Civil War did NOT do so because they owned or wanted to own slaves, but because it's where they happened to live and didn't have a choice. This pertains to why I don't view what has become the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, so much as a hijacked symbol of racism, BECAUSE a lot of the people that died beneath that flag did so because they were caught in a bad situation and forced to fight a war they didn't have any stake in, other than having the misfortune of living there. For those people that look at that flag, they see it as a symbol of their ancestors death...and I think, by and large, they're the majority, NOT the racist minority that carries that flag like a symbol of their superiority.

A lot of Germans were forced to fight in WWII who may not have totally bought into Nazi ideology. That doesn't change what the Nazis were all about or what their symbols represent.

 

It's the same with the Confederacy. What some poor farmer who fought for the Confederacy believed doesn't change why the Confederacy existed and what its goals were. If their ancestors died fighting for the Confederacy, they died fighting for an unquestionably evil cause. You can't separate what the Confederacy stood for and what it did and what former Confederates who waged racial terrorism in the following decades (NBF for example) carried on using those symbols for, or why there was a sudden resurgence of the symbols across the South during the 20th century civil rights struggles. That's just turning a blind eye to history.

[cabiness42]

Just saw a story come across that Wal-Mart is going to stop selling Confederate Battle Flags.

[Y2HH]

A lot of Germans were forced to fight in WWII who may not have totally bought into Nazi ideology. That doesn't change what the Nazis were all about or what their symbols represent.

 

It's the same with the Confederacy. What some poor farmer who fought for the Confederacy believed doesn't change why the Confederacy existed and what its goals were. If their ancestors died fighting for the Confederacy, they died fighting for an unquestionably evil cause. You can't separate what the Confederacy stood for and what it did and what former Confederates who waged racial terrorism in the following decades (NBF for example) carried on using those symbols for, or why there was a sudden resurgence of the symbols across the South during the 20th century civil rights struggles. That's just turning a blind eye to history.

 

Good point.

[Y2HH]

Just saw a story come across that Wal-Mart is going to stop selling Confederate Battle Flags.

 

I believe they're going to stop selling confederate anything.

[StrangeSox]

Don't remember if it was posted already, but the Republican House Leader in Mississippi is calling for their state flag, which contains the confederate flag, to be redesigned.

[bmags]

The poor farmers who didn't own slaves were told that when freed the former slaves would take their jobs and women and they'd be lower than the slaves.

 

They may not have owned slaves, but they were sold on the war with white supremacy.

[Balta1701]

The poor farmers who didn't own slaves were told that when freed the former slaves would take their jobs and women and they'd be lower than the slaves.

 

They may not have owned slaves, but they were sold on the war with white supremacy.

And now we have a guy shooting 9 people because they will rape white women.

 

There we go, back to original topic.

[Y2HH]

I believe eBay has banned the sale of Confederate merchandise now.

 

With the amount of sudden reaction to a flag that's been flying for decades, you'd think the flag itself walked into that church and shot people.

 

Shark jumped.

[EvilMonkey]

I believe eBay has banned the sale of Confederate merchandise now.

 

With the amount of sudden reaction to a flag that's been flying for decades, you'd think the flag itself walked into that church and shot people.

 

Shark jumped.

Knee-jerk "we gotta do something, even if it isn't right, doesn't work or is off base." Because you never let a good crisis go to waste.

[Y2HH]

Knee-jerk "we gotta do something, even if it isn't right, doesn't work or is off base." Because you never let a good crisis go to waste.

 

Look, I don't care either way, I have no use for confederate flags, clothing or whatever the hell else people buy...I just think this has gone from a racist murderer who obviously had some pretty serious issues and some innocent people being gunned down to attacking the specter of the confederacy.

 

When it comes to removing it as the official flag of a state/city, I can at least get that, but stores/online auctions banning merchandise seems to be a step too far. You aren't going to stop people from getting this stuff, and if anything, they're creating a huge market for it right now.

[bmags]

"to attacking the specter of the confederacy"

 

LOL

 

This isn't the first time people have objected to the confederate flag, it has been ongoing for years. But the argument is that you cannot celebrate that flag and the confederacy without endorsing it's very explicit ideas. This man endorsed those ideas explicitly, and people are surprised that people want to remove a white supremacist flag from flying over the state?

[southsider2k5]

"to attacking the specter of the confederacy"

 

LOL

 

This isn't the first time people have objected to the confederate flag, it has been ongoing for years. But the argument is that you cannot celebrate that flag and the confederacy without endorsing it's very explicit ideas. This man endorsed those ideas explicitly, and people are surprised that people want to remove a white supremacist flag from flying over the state?

 

I am more surprised people want to waste time on this versus what actually happened in SC.

 

[bmags]

The real victims here are the people who wanted to honor the confederacy!

[Y2HH]

"to attacking the specter of the confederacy"

 

LOL

 

This isn't the first time people have objected to the confederate flag, it has been ongoing for years. But the argument is that you cannot celebrate that flag and the confederacy without endorsing it's very explicit ideas. This man endorsed those ideas explicitly, and people are surprised that people want to remove a white supremacist flag from flying over the state?

 

Everything I wrote, that you responded too, was the exact opposite of everything you just said.

 

I explicitly said I at least understand people wanting them to remove it from the state/city in an official capacity. I was speaking specifically as to how far they're actually taking this now. Everyone's getting on board just so people will look at them.

 

Free publicity for WalMart and Ebay, Mitt Romney, etc...

 

This is opportunistic.

 

But thanks for actually reading.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Y2HH

[bmags]

I am more surprised people want to waste time on this versus what actually happened in SC.

 

White supremacist kills black people for upteenth time in southern history, people ask to remove symbols promoting white supremacy.

 

Seems pretty relevant. It's only irrelevant to those who seem to not believe that this man was not motivated by what he explicitly said he was motivated by.

[Jenksismyhero]

I am more surprised people want to waste time on this versus what actually happened in SC.

 

Shoot, this is some good PR. Walmart, Ebay, and now Amazon. The white supremcy flag was fine last week, but "Oh! A national story?! We're not cool with it now either!"

 

The fact that it still works on the American people really saddens me.

[Y2HH]

Shoot, this is some good PR. Walmart, Ebay, and now Amazon. The white supremcy flag was fine last week, but "Oh! A national story?! We're not cool with it now either!"

 

The fact that it still works on the American people really saddens me.

 

Finally, someone with a f***ing brain around here.

[StrangeSox]

I am more surprised people want to waste time on this versus what actually happened in SC.

Yeah, it's a shame that the flag wasn't torn from the pole and burned as part of Haley's first speech as it should have been. It's sad that so much effort has to be put into just taking down a symbol of white supremacy let alone actually fighting against white supremacy.

Edited June 23, 2015 by StrangeSox