Carroll called up; Noesi DFA'd

[southsider2k5]

And that's the problem.

The Sox waste roster spots for players who are "Serviceable" in limited roles.

 

The talent evaluators actually believe Carroll is a major league player. No wonder the team and org is so untalented.

 

Except they let him go last year, so they obviously think there is much better out there.

[Chisoxfn]

Who do we have available who can fill his roster role?

Depends on if we think we still plan on trying to contend. Sanchez slides into that role with Micah getting the spot he deserved where he can work at the big league level the rest of the year and give us a far better expectation of whether we can mark 2B as a position we don't have to worry about going forward.

[Soxfest]

Who do we have available who can fill his roster role?

He is not filling any role right now complete bust.

[OmarComing25]

And that's the problem.

The Sox waste roster spots for players who are "Serviceable" in limited roles.

 

The talent evaluators actually believe Carroll is a major league player. No wonder the team and org is so untalented.

Heh, there are much better examples to point out how the Sox are poor talent evaluators than Scott Carroll. He's meant to be a spot starter/mop-up guy/long reliever, and he actually does fine in that role. It's not like the Sox believe he should actually be in the rotation.

[Dick Allen]

Heh, there are much better examples to point out how the Sox are poor talent evaluators than Scott Carroll. He's meant to be a spot starter/mop-up guy/long reliever, and he actually does fine in that role. It's not like the Sox believe he should actually be in the rotation.

Exactly. Guys like Noesi, where even some of the talent evaluators here thought was a solid #4 or #5 starter. Some of the same evaluators who like to call the Sox dopes. Noesi was basically waived off of 2 teams. Not many of those guys become really good options in the rotation.

[chitownsportsfan]

Piddling change that does nothing. Lose another 8 of 10 and maybe we'll see some real changes like finding a taker for LaRoche, (start teaching Avi 1B), DFAing boni (sanchez slides to his role) calling up Micah, moving Danks to the pen and calling up Johnson, etc, etc, etc.

 

God, I'm rooting for the tornado (as Jim at SSS put well) instead of wins, what a s***ty season.

[BlackSox13]

Noesi is gone and Carroll replaces him in the pen. Sox win two ways.

 

Carroll has proven to be much more effective as a reliever than a starter so long relief is a good role for him. He's an upgrade over Noesi and a step in the right direction.

[chitownsportsfan]

Exactly. Guys like Noesi, where even some of the talent evaluators here thought was a solid #4 or #5 starter. Some of the same evaluators who like to call the Sox dopes. Noesi was basically waived off of 2 teams. Not many of those guys become really good options in the rotation.

 

And who usually makes the "I can fix him bring him in" suggestion? Cooper. He said he thought he could help Shark as well. What a joke. He's lost his magic.

[Dick Allen]

Piddling change that does nothing. Lose another 8 of 10 and maybe we'll see some real changes like finding a taker for LaRoche, (start teaching Avi 1B), DFAing boni (sanchez slides to his role) calling up Micah, moving Danks to the pen and calling up Johnson, etc, etc, etc.

 

God, I'm rooting for the tornado (as Jim at SSS put well) instead of wins, what a s***ty season.

So now Bonifacio needs to be DFA'd, a guy you loved, said the Sox wouldn't miss a beat if he had to play for a month. Sanchez is supposed to be in his role. A guy you said they had to call up for defense alone, that it was stupid Micah was playing 2B and he wasn't, and the Micah, the guy who wasn't supposed to play 2B, any fool could see that, should be back at 2B. Wow.

[GreenSox]

Heh, there are much better examples to point out how the Sox are poor talent evaluators than Scott Carroll. He's meant to be a spot starter/mop-up guy/long reliever, and he actually does fine in that role. It's not like the Sox believe he should actually be in the rotation.

And if the Sox believe that 1.50 WHIPs and 4.5 K/9 is fine, that goes a long way to diagnosing the problems in this org. They know everything there is about Carroll and they think that that output is major league quality.

 

I suspect we can throw some "good in the clubhouse" nonsense in the mix as well.

 

 

Noesi, on the other hand, was coming from a different org. and Cooper thought he could improve him. They were wrong, but they took a shot.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

And who usually makes the "I can fix him bring him in" suggestion? Cooper. He said he thought he could help Shark as well. What a joke. He's lost his magic.

Coop was boasting of the big plans he had for Noesi at Soxfest. A lot of people bought the hype. He does have talent, maybe bouncing around for a few more years may make something between his ears work a little better.

[Balta1701]

Coop was boasting of the big plans he had for Noesi at Soxfest. A lot of people bought the hype. He does have talent, maybe bouncing around for a few more years may make something between his ears work a little better.

Apparently the front office included because they were willing to massively increase the payroll while still leaving him a spot. I assume you agree this is a fireable offense.

[Dick Allen]

Apparently the front office included because they were willing to massively increase the payroll while still leaving him a spot. I assume you agree this is a fireable offense.

Funny thing is, you were one of them.

[fathom]

Coop was boasting of the big plans he had for Noesi at Soxfest. A lot of people bought the hype. He does have talent, maybe bouncing around for a few more years may make something between his ears work a little better.

 

The Sox didn't act like they had a lot of confidence in him this year. Extremely quick hooks, as well as skipping quite a few starts early on. I don't blame them, as he's just not a good fit for the Cell. He probably would fare much better pitching somewhere like San Fran

[shysocks]

And if the Sox believe that 1.50 WHIPs and 4.5 K/9 is fine, that goes a long way to diagnosing the problems in this org. They know everything there is about Carroll and they think that that output is major league quality.

 

I suspect we can throw some "good in the clubhouse" nonsense in the mix as well.

 

 

Noesi, on the other hand, was coming from a different org. and Cooper thought he could improve him. They were wrong, but they took a shot.

I think you're overreacting a little. The Sox don't think of Carroll as anything more than just a guy. No team in baseball has good players from top to bottom.

[Balta1701]

Funny thing is, you were one of them.

Yes. But I wasn't willing to risk a $115 million payroll and trades for a guy about to become a FA on that. I would have been ok risking an $80 million payroll on that because we'd still be looking long term. If he failed in that case, what's the harm? It just becomes a spot that the next guy up from Charlotte tries out.

[Dick Allen]

Yes. But I wasn't willing to risk a $115 million payroll and trades for a guy about to become a FA on that. I would have been ok risking an $80 million payroll on that because we'd still be looking long term. If he failed in that case, what's the harm? It just becomes a spot that the next guy up from Charlotte tries out.

Why are you so concerned about the payout JR's heirs will receive.

 

 

The fact is, you thought he was pretty good.

 

 

I can't believe people wrote this post without actually considering how Noesi's season went. Yes his ERA and FIP were poor, but somehow everyone has forgotten that:

 

1. His ERA was 0.35 runs lower if all you do is focus on the time he was with the White Sox

2. Focusing on the time he was with the white sox alone isn't smart either, in his first 4 starts with the White Sox they still needed to stretch his arm out so they left him out to die in the 6th inning several times while exhausted (ERA in those starts; 5.35)

 

 

I posted this version of average fWAR by pitcher's spot in the rotation in the advanced stats forum earlier this year. You can quibble with the exact numbers a bit, but what they come up with is that on average, a #4 starter is worth about 1.5 fWAR and a #5 starter is worth about 0. In other words, if all that happened was those guys repeating their 2014 seasons, we may have a below average #4 starter, but we have an above average 5th starter, to the point where we're league average in our 4-5 starters.

 

And again, that's assuming no improvement from Noesi, which there's a good chance of happening in fWAR just by getting more innings, no improvement from Danks another year removed from surgery, and no point where Rodon replaces them.

 

And on top of that, we should very likely have above average #2 and #3 starters and if Chris Sale doesn't hit the DL we very likely have above average #1, #2, and #3 starters.

 

Noesi and Danks are not problems with this team outside of Danks being overpaid for what he produces. If you can move Danks, great, but especially factoring in Rodon, this team is well set up to have an above average starting staff. That could change if someone gets hurt obviously, but a new #4 starter isn't going to make up for Chris Sale getting hurt no matter what we do.

[Balta1701]

Why are you so concerned about the payout JR's heirs will receive.

 

 

The fact is, you thought he was pretty good.

My exact phrase would have been "last year he was above average as a 5th starter and below average as a 4th starter" which is true. Unfortunately he did not perform at that level this year. Therefore he's been replaced.

 

I'm also not concerned with the payout JR's heirs will receive. For example, I want them paying the salary of 2 managers because one of them was removed while still under contract in the middle of 2015. I assume you're also ok with that since you want to minimize the payout JR's heirs will receive.

[caulfield12]

The Rangers gave up on Noesi because (even though they were going to find themselves in a rebuilding situation soon enough)...they believed they had numerous better starting options in the minors and felt they needed immediate results.

[Dick Allen]

The Rangers gave up on Noesi because (even though they were going to find themselves in a rebuilding situation soon enough)...they believed they had numerous better starting options in the minors and felt they needed immediate results.

They waived him because he sucked, and they thought he would continue to suck. They were right.

[southsider2k5]

I think you're overreacting a little. The Sox don't think of Carroll as anything more than just a guy. No team in baseball has good players from top to bottom.

 

Again demonstrated by them releasing him from the 40 man roster over the winter.

[Chisoxfn]

My exact phrase would have been "last year he was above average as a 5th starter and below average as a 4th starter" which is true. Unfortunately he did not perform at that level this year. Therefore he's been replaced.

 

I'm also not concerned with the payout JR's heirs will receive. For example, I want them paying the salary of 2 managers because one of them was removed while still under contract in the middle of 2015. I assume you're also ok with that since you want to minimize the payout JR's heirs will receive.

All this said, if you are average at all spots, you are an average team so goal should be above average most spots, average other spots and then you obviously could contend with a few slightly below avg spots. Sox have a few > ab avg and a lot of way

[LDF]

My exact phrase would have been "last year he was above average as a 5th starter and below average as a 4th starter" which is true. Unfortunately he did not perform at that level this year. Therefore he's been replaced.

 

I'm also not concerned with the payout JR's heirs will receive. For example, I want them paying the salary of 2 managers because one of them was removed while still under contract in the middle of 2015. I assume you're also ok with that since you want to minimize the payout JR's heirs will receive.

re Hector, i agree, last yr was a pleasant surprise in him with others failed.

 

second ref heirs, who cares what they will receive, it was thru bad management that got their father and company in that position. but they will still walk away with a real nice rtn on their org investment.

[Dick Allen]

My exact phrase would have been "last year he was above average as a 5th starter and below average as a 4th starter" which is true. Unfortunately he did not perform at that level this year. Therefore he's been replaced.

 

I'm also not concerned with the payout JR's heirs will receive. For example, I want them paying the salary of 2 managers because one of them was removed while still under contract in the middle of 2015. I assume you're also ok with that since you want to minimize the payout JR's heirs will receive.

Your exact phrase was Noesi and Danks were not problems with this team. Now you are saying that the executives that thought as you did needed to be fired. So obviously you feel anyone thinking that is incompetent.

[Balta1701]

Your exact phrase was Noesi and Danks were not problems with this team. Now you are saying that the executives that thought as you did needed to be fired. So obviously you feel anyone thinking that is incompetent.

So far, John Danks has actually been above average as a 5th starter (0.6 fWAR). That was one of the points I made. The other point specifically made from that text says "and no point where Rodon replaces them".

 

Basically it proceeded exactly as I said it would. Unfortunately Noesi performed poorly enough that he was the one Rodon replaced. This part actually came true.

 

Now if you'd like to drop it we can, or if you want to continue poking at all the people who are "the same evaluators who like to call the Sox dopes", I can pull up your points in the Victor Martinez thread about how he was likely to continue being as good of a hitter as he was last year for 2-3 more years.