Outside the box

[BamaDoc]

I watched last night CWS games and started thinking outside the box. I know it wouldn't be done due to egos and the risks/embarrassment of failure but look at Vanderbilt pre Corbin. Vandy was a program with no history and one of the greatest disadvantages in recruiting there could be. Many of you may not realize that most baseball scholarships are fractions of a full ride. At Vandy if you are on a third or half ride you must come up with the rest of the money. That extra is often 20-30k just in tuition. That cost severely limits your player pool. Academic requirements are substantial and most academic scholarships start with needing about 32 on an ACT. Yet he has built a very solid program all while the MLB raids his roster and recruiting class. They play smart aggressive baseball. They develop pitchers and hitters. I would consider hiring someone like that to run my minor league system. I think the minors are much more like college than MLB. You are dealing with developing players and dealing with kids away from home and life problems. I would seriously consider a guy like Corbin and give him a huge say in hiring scouts and instructors. So often scouts and instructors are former MLB players or failed minor leaguers who seem to have little qualifications. There is a place for people who have MLB experience but not in an organizational nepotistic way.

 

Imagine guys developing. Coming up and able to hit behind runners, execute a bunt when called for, knowing how to play defense. Playing smart.

[LDF]

I watched last night CWS games and started thinking outside the box. I know it wouldn't be done due to egos and the risks/embarrassment of failure but look at Vanderbilt pre Corbin. Vandy was a program with no history and one of the greatest disadvantages in recruiting there could be. Many of you may not realize that most baseball scholarships are fractions of a full ride. At Vandy if you are on a third or half ride you must come up with the rest of the money. That extra is often 20-30k just in tuition. That cost severely limits your player pool. Academic requirements are substantial and most academic scholarships start with needing about 32 on an ACT. Yet he has built a very solid program all while the MLB raids his roster and recruiting class. They play smart aggressive baseball. They develop pitchers and hitters. I would consider hiring someone like that to run my minor league system. I think the minors are much more like college than MLB. You are dealing with developing players and dealing with kids away from home and life problems. I would seriously consider a guy like Corbin and give him a huge say in hiring scouts and instructors. So often scouts and instructors are former MLB players or failed minor leaguers who seem to have little qualifications. There is a place for people who have MLB experience but not in an organizational nepotistic way.

 

Imagine guys developing. Coming up and able to hit behind runners, execute a bunt when called for, knowing how to play defense. Playing smart.

 

i personally like that idea in some respects.

 

i believe Joshua and i discussed something like that during the off season. i was all for hiring another young pitching coach to be groomed, something like a promising coach, maybe in the college level, to start working with the sox minor leaguers and on the specification of what coop wants. of course they will have a difference in philosophy, but that will be ok and still work together.

 

something like this happen in the 80's early 90's with the sox.

 

with ref to the other coaches, nothing will happen as long as the owners still believe in the good ole boy system.

 

edit.... btw nice safe topic.

Edited June 23, 2015 by LDF

[Dick Allen]

I watched last night CWS games and started thinking outside the box. I know it wouldn't be done due to egos and the risks/embarrassment of failure but look at Vanderbilt pre Corbin. Vandy was a program with no history and one of the greatest disadvantages in recruiting there could be. Many of you may not realize that most baseball scholarships are fractions of a full ride. At Vandy if you are on a third or half ride you must come up with the rest of the money. That extra is often 20-30k just in tuition. That cost severely limits your player pool. Academic requirements are substantial and most academic scholarships start with needing about 32 on an ACT. Yet he has built a very solid program all while the MLB raids his roster and recruiting class. They play smart aggressive baseball. They develop pitchers and hitters. I would consider hiring someone like that to run my minor league system. I think the minors are much more like college than MLB. You are dealing with developing players and dealing with kids away from home and life problems. I would seriously consider a guy like Corbin and give him a huge say in hiring scouts and instructors. So often scouts and instructors are former MLB players or failed minor leaguers who seem to have little qualifications. There is a place for people who have MLB experience but not in an organizational nepotistic way.

 

Imagine guys developing. Coming up and able to hit behind runners, execute a bunt when called for, knowing how to play defense. Playing smart.

The problem is the White Sox do all these things in the minor leagues, and either they have players that just can't grasp it or have instructors that just can

't teach it. There was a photo on Twitter of Micah Johnson being schooled about playing 2B in Charlotte 6 hours before the game. I was told the same thing was going on in Chicago. He wasn't getting better. Is it because he can't or the White Sox don't know how to make him better?

 

I also heard another reason Micah is in Charlotte was the pitching staff was getting very frustrated, I heard especially Samardjiza, with his glove work.

[LDF]

The problem is the White Sox do all these things in the minor leagues, and either they have players that just can't grasp it or have instructors that just can

't teach it. There was a photo on Twitter of Micah Johnson being schooled about playing 2B in Charlotte 6 hours before the game. I was told the same thing was going on in Chicago. He wasn't getting better. Is it because he can't or the White Sox don't know how to make him better?

 

I also heard another reason Micah is in Charlotte was the pitching staff was getting very frustrated, I heard especially Samardjiza, with his glove work.

 

all that is sooo sweet to hear. excellent, the players do have a pulse.

[caulfield12]

I watched last night CWS games and started thinking outside the box. I know it wouldn't be done due to egos and the risks/embarrassment of failure but look at Vanderbilt pre Corbin. Vandy was a program with no history and one of the greatest disadvantages in recruiting there could be. Many of you may not realize that most baseball scholarships are fractions of a full ride. At Vandy if you are on a third or half ride you must come up with the rest of the money. That extra is often 20-30k just in tuition. That cost severely limits your player pool. Academic requirements are substantial and most academic scholarships start with needing about 32 on an ACT. Yet he has built a very solid program all while the MLB raids his roster and recruiting class. They play smart aggressive baseball. They develop pitchers and hitters. I would consider hiring someone like that to run my minor league system. I think the minors are much more like college than MLB. You are dealing with developing players and dealing with kids away from home and life problems. I would seriously consider a guy like Corbin and give him a huge say in hiring scouts and instructors. So often scouts and instructors are former MLB players or failed minor leaguers who seem to have little qualifications. There is a place for people who have MLB experience but not in an organizational nepotistic way.

 

Imagine guys developing. Coming up and able to hit behind runners, execute a bunt when called for, knowing how to play defense. Playing smart.

 

I think it's an interesting idea.

 

The problem is going to be you have to completely start over with most of your high level and even upper middle level managers in the system....they're not going to want to work for an outsider, especially one without professional baseball experience (like a Tom House at USC, who's very controversial in his own right). You'd have to get COMPLETE buy-in from players/coaches/staff, so you can't half-ass it and have a situation like Ozzie/KW or even KW/Hahn or Corbin/Bell where mixed messages are getting sent out and nobody is clear as far as who they are to follow and why.

 

Don't disagree at all in principal guys like Bell SHOULD be gone, based on the results or lack thereof....I can just imagine those initial meetings being not too far off what you saw portrayed onscreen in Moneyball with Billy Beane/Jonah Hill against the "old school scouting guard" as represented by Grady Fuson.

 

Nick Capra would probably leave, too.

Edited June 23, 2015 by caulfield12

[GreenSox]

I watched last night CWS games and started thinking outside the box. I know it wouldn't be done due to egos and the risks/embarrassment of failure but look at Vanderbilt pre Corbin. Vandy was a program with no history and one of the greatest disadvantages in recruiting there could be. Many of you may not realize that most baseball scholarships are fractions of a full ride. At Vandy if you are on a third or half ride you must come up with the rest of the money. That extra is often 20-30k just in tuition. That cost severely limits your player pool. Academic requirements are substantial and most academic scholarships start with needing about 32 on an ACT.

 

They have other scholarships available and they use it on baseball players. These players are not ACT 32s. Private schools have always done will in baseball. Stanford, Miami, Rice, Vandy have won NCs. (not to mention USC). Tulane, TCU have made multiple CWS. Many of the disadvantages that academic schools face in football and basketball don't exist in baseball, despite the tuition challenge.

 

A recent former college baseball coach is now managing the Padres. But I like your idea.

Edited June 23, 2015 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

I still haven't seen it explained or even asked of Ventura WHAT HAPPENED to the defense from April - August of 2012?

 

Other than the obvious changes like Viciedo/DeAza in recent years, all of the players have gotten worse.

 

You might be able to say Alexei is just getting older (finally) or LaRoche, but what about Eaton, Flowers, Gillaspie and Abreu? If Avi's better, I'm not seeing it...he has one positive asset, his arm, but it's not offsetting his other defensive flaws according to all the metrics.

 

Conor has poor footwork and that terrible habit of throwing it almost sidearm, which consistently results in poor throws...with more errors over there without Konerko and his scooping ability on low tosses.

 

Our three best middle infield prospects (Semien, Micah Johnson and Tim Anderson) all have defensive issues. Our "plus" defenders in Sanchez, Rondon and Leury can't hit.

 

We also don't have any outfielders who project to both hit and field above replacement player value at the next level....and that's not even addressing catcher and 3B (Trey M., maybe...)

Edited June 23, 2015 by caulfield12

[LDF]

 

Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

all this failures fall directly on the owners. plain and simple. why the owners, they refuse to see the truth and allowed this disaster of how to run a baseball team. the buck ends with the owners.

 

now the sox has Hahn at the helm, well somewhat at the helm. he has many yrs of incompetence to undo.

 

the problem is trying to rush the job and the shortcuts they may take.

[BamaDoc]

Thanks all for responses. I had thought about him managing but there I could see lack of MLB experience making it harder. Multi millionaires may have a hard time buying in. I came up with player selection and development being a better role. It's what they already do all the time.

 

Dick Allen: Thats part of my point. Would someone like Corbin be better at identifying who can teach it and who can learn it?

 

Caufield12: I agree that you would have to have sweeping significant change throughout the system so therefore it would not be without huge risk. Perhaps as you move up the minors you could have a increase in ex MLB players coaches to fine tune or polish prospects. If you think about it, the lowest levels are where the most teaching needs to be done and biggest personal adjustments are going on like guys first time away from home or living in a new country. The lowest levels are where the first time coaches are sent. First time coaches are learning how to coach and may be least equipped to handle anything. My lowest levels would often have the best and veteran teachers, it's where you learn to do it our way. Young coaches could be there but also for them to learn how we do it from vet coaches. Not to pick on a player but Micah came into our system in 2012 and has moved up from rookie league. You/he should be taught and learn.

[caulfield12]

Thanks all for responses. I had thought about him managing but there I could see lack of MLB experience making it harder. Multi millionaires may have a hard time buying in. I came up with player selection and development being a better role. It's what they already do all the time.

 

Dick Allen: Thats part of my point. Would someone like Corbin be better at identifying who can teach it and who can learn it?

 

Caufield12: I agree that you would have to have sweeping significant change throughout the system so therefore it would not be without huge risk. Perhaps as you move up the minors you could have a increase in ex MLB players coaches to fine tune or polish prospects. If you think about it, the lowest levels are where the most teaching needs to be done and biggest personal adjustments are going on like guys first time away from home or living in a new country. The lowest levels are where the first time coaches are sent. First time coaches are learning how to coach and may be least equipped to handle anything. My lowest levels would often have the best and veteran teachers, it's where you learn to do it our way. Young coaches could be there but also for them to learn how we do it from vet coaches. Not to pick on a player but Micah came into our system in 2012 and has moved up from rookie league. You/he should be taught and learn.

 

 

It's kind of like veteran/distinguished teachers getting the oldest high school students or the honor's/distinguished scholars.

 

Agree that the first 2-3 years in the system are the most important, and yet the salary/wages I'm pretty sure are higher for AA/AAA coaches than they are for the short-season, extended spring, AZ, DSL, etc. There's certainly much more prestige with the higher level managing gigs.

 

One of the arguments for that is so many of the players from those lower levels aren't going to make it to AA even, so you're wasting a lot of valuable (coaching) time and effort in the beginning...or you're also having the problem of a lot of prospects feeling they're being ignored if they don't get nearly as much attention from the staff/roving instructors.

 

Another solution would be more SPECIALIZED roving instructors dealing with issues like defense and base running specifically.

 

The next issue is the fact that we never had a Venezuelan instructional program (even with Ozzie as manager) and we've just recently started to put things together in the Dominican, but that effort still hasn't borne much fruit.

 

Having those top level instructors that are willing to work outside of the US (and you'd have to pay them commensurately) would be a big help. And they'd also have to speak Spanish fluently, so it would mostly be former players.

 

It's hard to find a really good team today that doesn't have at least 2-4 homegrown Latin American players.

 

 

[LDF]

economically my idea probably wouldn't be cost effective. i would have coaches on each team at each level coaching. teaming the fundamentals. repetition, repetition, repetition. keep on going over, over.

 

just keep drilling the fundamentals.

 

but that is me.

 

[southsider2k5]

economically my idea probably wouldn't be cost effective. i would have coaches on each team at each level coaching. teaming the fundamentals. repetition, repetition, repetition. keep on going over, over.

 

just keep drilling the fundamentals.

 

but that is me.

 

What are they doing now?

[lasttriptotulsa]

economically my idea probably wouldn't be cost effective. i would have coaches on each team at each level coaching. teaming the fundamentals. repetition, repetition, repetition. keep on going over, over.

 

just keep drilling the fundamentals.

 

but that is me.

 

I am incredibly confused by this post.

 

[LDF]

What are they doing now?

 

well, since you know i am not a professional coach, and a fan like everyone else. in additions, the team on the major side appears to look as they forgot all about the fundamentals, my response is based on those parameters i just stated.

 

btw, do you know for a fact of what they do??

[LDF]

I am incredibly confused by this post.

 

then don't bother with it.

[southsider2k5]

well, since you know i am not a professional coach, and a fan like everyone else. in additions, the team on the major side appears to look as they forgot all about the fundamentals, my response is based on those parameters i just stated.

 

btw, do you know for a fact of what they do??

 

I do not. However I am not saying what they should be doing either.

[LDF]

I do not. However I am not saying what they should be doing either.

 

ok, i was always under the impression that they have spring training, pretty much as we knows it, at the beginning of the season.

 

then they go to their separate league and team and it is there, they will have the regular coaches. so i think they will continue to work during the season.

 

for me, i would like a more intense regular season play and teaching, instead of having a roving coach to make sure all the teams are working on the same page, i like each team to have their own roving coach in-house. to keep the intense learning from spring training to continue thru the season.

 

so in other words reps follow by more reps.

[fathom]

The Cubs a few years ago hired the Vandy pitching coach based off of his track record. Definitely won't hurt them when they go after Price this offseason.

[kitekrazy]

economically my idea probably wouldn't be cost effective. i would have coaches on each team at each level coaching. teaming the fundamentals. repetition, repetition, repetition. keep on going over, over.

 

just keep drilling the fundamentals.

 

but that is me.

 

I heard someone say you can't coach the stupid out of the player. I think the Sox philosophy is that these can always be teachable no matter how deficient a player is in that area. Most kids finishing college have a least 10 years of baseball experience. If they don't have a clue on how to play the game by then how much better is it going to be now that they are going to be playing at a higher level.

 

[LDF]

I heard someone say you can't coach the stupid out of the player. I think the Sox philosophy is that these can always be teachable no matter how deficient a player is in that area. Most kids finishing college have a least 10 years of baseball experience. If they don't have a clue on how to play the game by then how much better is it going to be now that they are going to be playing at a higher level.

 

at that point, close the book.

 

which pro team took the draft to another level by asking the players to go thru a test....

[Balta1701]

I heard someone say you can't coach the stupid out of the player. I think the Sox philosophy is that these can always be teachable no matter how deficient a player is in that area. Most kids finishing college have a least 10 years of baseball experience. If they don't have a clue on how to play the game by then how much better is it going to be now that they are going to be playing at a higher level.

In that case then they need to completely shift their priorities and start finding players who have these skills. Take a look at the guys we've brought in during these trades and the guys we were relying on this year - Avi, Melky, Micah, Gillaspie - you can't look at the lineups we're putting out on a daily basis and think "Man the White Sox really went after guys who value fundamentals". We're making it a point, over and over, to bring these guys in. If we can't coach them to do this work better...then we need to stop bringing guys like that in to fill out our roster.

[kitekrazy]

I still haven't seen it explained or even asked of Ventura WHAT HAPPENED to the defense from April - August of 2012?

 

Other than the obvious changes like Viciedo/DeAza in recent years, all of the players have gotten worse.

 

You might be able to say Alexei is just getting older (finally) or LaRoche, but what about Eaton, Flowers, Gillaspie and Abreu? If Avi's better, I'm not seeing it...he has one positive asset, his arm, but it's not offsetting his other defensive flaws according to all the metrics.

 

Conor has poor footwork and that terrible habit of throwing it almost sidearm, which consistently results in poor throws...with more errors over there without Konerko and his scooping ability on low tosses.

 

Our three best middle infield prospects (Semien, Micah Johnson and Tim Anderson) all have defensive issues. Our "plus" defenders in Sanchez, Rondon and Leury can't hit.

 

We also don't have any outfielders who project to both hit and field above replacement player value at the next level....and that's not even addressing catcher and 3B (Trey M., maybe...)

 

It seems defense was never a priority under KW. Since the team was lacking a 3rd baseman they tried guys like Fields and experimented with Viciedo at that position in the minors to trying to filled a need. You can do that in Little League. At the minor league level you either got it or you don't.

 

It is interesting when young players leave this organization for another do they get better?

 

[Boopa1219]

I am all for Bell, Laumann, and Capra being gone.

[Boopa1219]

i personally like that idea in some respects.

 

i believe Joshua and i discussed something like that during the off season. i was all for hiring another young pitching coach to be groomed, something like a promising coach, maybe in the college level, to start working with the sox minor leaguers and on the specification of what coop wants.

 

We did, I remember.

[ptatc]

well, since you know i am not a professional coach, and a fan like everyone else. in additions, the team on the major side appears to look as they forgot all about the fundamentals, my response is based on those parameters i just stated.

 

btw, do you know for a fact of what they do??

Every player works onthe fundamentals nearly everyday in the minors. At least every team I ever saw that includes white sox minor league teams.