Dave Cameron: Sox Should Sell Sale, Q, and Abreu

[fathom]

I agree. I think the premise from Cameron is awful. Trade everyone and blow up, no. But it might make sense to trade one of the cost controlled guys and Q would probably be the best bet. I would have to get blown away though (3 top prospects, 2 of which are top 50 guys). Small market (and big market teams) can both be players, which increases potential return, imo. I think between Shark and Q, we should be able to land 4 top 100 guys and 2 top 50 guys, but again, I might be delirious (plus some other fill in's). I still say a trade centered around Puig and a top prospect from Dodgers could make a ton of sense for Sox.

 

If you're going to trade everyone and blow it up, you might as well deal Rodon as well. If you are waiting 3-5 years to compete, he's going to be close to free agency by the time the team is good again. So yes, I agree blowing it up is a bad idea.

[Quin]

If the Sox think Schwarber can stick at catcher, they can get Edwards, AND snag Russell or Baez I might do that deal. I think Schwarber is gonna be a monster, and getting Edwards would soften the blow of losing Sale a ton. The rotation with Rodon-Q-Fulmer-Edwards is intriguing as hell.

 

Cubs conversations start with Bryant or the Sox hang up.

[NorthSideSox72]

I have a hard time saying this team needs 3-4 years to win. With the pitching they have in Chicago and in the pipe, they can put together good to great staffs (barring unforseen injuries which are a risk across all teams anyway) continuously for that period. And usually, pitching is the hardest part to build.

 

They need better offense and defense from the entire skill infield set and catcher. That should be the focus. If enough of those 4 positions can improve substantially, you have a contending team. That's not an easy task, but we are also only talking about 4 positions so it isn't impossible.

 

Yes Avisail is a worry, but he's the least of your problems if this teams skill infield and catcher were putting up even league average numbers on both sides of the ball. That's literally all it would take, in my view, to make the Sox contenders in 2016 - league average or better (both sides) players at those 4 roles.

 

(before anyone screams, I am not saying you can't also improve elsewhere, just that the OF and 1B/DH are either good enough or having unusually bad years so they aren't a priority in my eyes)

 

[Chisoxfn]

I have a hard time saying this team needs 3-4 years to win. With the pitching they have in Chicago and in the pipe, they can put together good to great staffs (barring unforseen injuries which are a risk across all teams anyway) continuously for that period. And usually, pitching is the hardest part to build.

 

They need better offense and defense from the entire skill infield set and catcher. That should be the focus. If enough of those 4 positions can improve substantially, you have a contending team. That's not an easy task, but we are also only talking about 4 positions so it isn't impossible.

 

Yes Avisail is a worry, but he's the least of your problems if this teams skill infield and catcher were putting up even league average numbers on both sides of the ball. That's literally all it would take, in my view, to make the Sox contenders in 2016 - league average or better (both sides) players at those 4 roles.

 

(before anyone screams, I am not saying you can't also improve elsewhere, just that the OF and 1B/DH are either good enough or having unusually bad years so they aren't a priority in my eyes)

I completely agree with you. Just think to 2004 off-season (leading up to 2005), we added Pods / Iguchi / Dye / AJP. That is a CF / 2B / RF / C. If we were able to pull off a coup like that again, all of which were avg. to above avg starters at their respective positions, we'd be a serious contender. I don't think we even necessarily have to go to that extreme, although we clearly need to see significant roster turnover in the everyday lineup. Where that comes from, I don't know, but we do have assets in our farm system to move (plus Shark and potentially a guy like Q). This could include people like Tim Anderson who we flip for other prospects if we see fit.

[OmarComing25]

I have a hard time saying this team needs 3-4 years to win. With the pitching they have in Chicago and in the pipe, they can put together good to great staffs (barring unforseen injuries which are a risk across all teams anyway) continuously for that period. And usually, pitching is the hardest part to build.

 

They need better offense and defense from the entire skill infield set and catcher. That should be the focus. If enough of those 4 positions can improve substantially, you have a contending team. That's not an easy task, but we are also only talking about 4 positions so it isn't impossible.

 

Yes Avisail is a worry, but he's the least of your problems if this teams skill infield and catcher were putting up even league average numbers on both sides of the ball. That's literally all it would take, in my view, to make the Sox contenders in 2016 - league average or better (both sides) players at those 4 roles.

 

(before anyone screams, I am not saying you can't also improve elsewhere, just that the OF and 1B/DH are either good enough or having unusually bad years so they aren't a priority in my eyes)

I agree. The next few years with pitching is actually looking pretty bright. They could easily compete with a few league-average guys on offense and defense. The problem is that half the offense right now is performing well-below league average. It wouldn't be easy but a couple bounce-backs from guys and a couple savvy trades and suddenly the team doesn't look half-bad.

[LDF]

Cubs conversations start with Bryant or the Sox hang up.

i have been passing on this, but i am too tempted.

 

everyone is hyped about Bryant, why not Rizzo, Russell and Schwarber, forget about Vogelbach

[fathom]

i have been passing on this, but i am too tempted.

 

everyone is hyped about Bryant, why not Rizzo, Russell and Schwarber, forget about Vogelbach

 

They're not trading Rizzo...or Bryant, IMO

 

I think they'll go after someone like Sonny Gray and offer Schwarber and Baez, etc.

Edited June 23, 2015 by fathom

[2nd_city_saint787]

Cubs conversations start with Bryant or the Sox hang up.

 

Eh, if I had to choose between what would likely just be Bryant and lesser prospects vs a package of Schwarber/Edwards++ I think I'd go with the package of multiple studs.

[fathom]

Eh, if I had to choose between what would likely just be Bryant and lesser prospects vs a package of Schwarber/Edwards++ I think I'd go with the package of multiple studs.

 

Underwood is their best pitching prospect, IMO. Edwards looks like he's going to be a reliever. I'd rather take the likely superstar in Bryant at a position the Sox have nothing good at (3B). With that said, they're not going to trade him.

Edited June 23, 2015 by fathom

[Southwest Sider]

The only way I am trading Sale is for someone elses MLB ready players, and I think the White Sox should explore every avenue of doing this until they find a deal that knocks their socks off.

 

There are 4 reasons why I think we should trade Sale for MLB ready prospects.

 

1) I don't trust the Sox organizational coaching staff to produce MLB capable position players, so prospects that are 2-3 years out are not an option.

2) I don't trust the Sox front office (nor do I think they have the horses) to pull of enough of the right trades and free agency signings to field a competitive team. This 2015 team has proven to me that organizationally developing winning baseball players is the new age model. Catching lightning in a bottle like in 2005 is just what it is, lightning in a bottle. One in a million. You need luck, and I'd rather have an organization that successfully produces MLB capable players then rely on luck any more. 2005 was great but we can't really expect something like that to ever happen again.

3) If he hurts himself and loses his "stuff" after a surgery, our team would be geniuses to have sold him at his highest possible value.

4) If he doesn't hurt himself and succeeds mightily with a new organization, it should have been deemed a "fair" deal as the Sox should have gotten a kings ransom for him.

 

The list of needs for this team are now 3B, SS, 2B, LF, C and potentially CF and RF (I still hold out hope for Eaton and Garcia) and there is no way in hell we are going to produce, sign or trade for enough players that will fill every position. We have a few promising prospects, but not enough to think that we will be able to compete for a title while Chris Sale wears a Sox uniform.

 

I love me some Chris Sale. Many fans will be pissed off, those with Chris Sale jerseys and those who think the Sox would be fools to trade one of the best pitchers in baseball. The Sox most likely will not trade him because it will isolate fans. But so many are already isolated. How many seasons can we be done with baseball by May? If I'm going to be putting up with seasons of being done with baseball in May, there needs to be some kind of light at the end of the tunnel, and I'm just not so sure that there is one right now.

 

Trading Chris Sale can be a franchise changing move. As much as I love him, I'm really hoping some team steps up to the plate and pays the price for him.

Edited June 23, 2015 by South Sider

[michelangelosmonkey]

4th in the NL with a 3.49 ERA, and they have a ridiculous amount of resources now to attract a top of the rotation starter.

Really THAT'S your take away? Which of the Cubs starters would you trade straight up for Rodon, Sale or even Q? Hammel's old. Lester is old and expensive. Arrieta's is 30 and has a season and a half of success. Hendricks isn't good. And the POINT wasn't are the Cubs good...which I think they are...but they built around hitting and their pitching, irrespective of team ERA is a bit shaky. The Sox will lose Shark off their payroll next year and with five cheap starting pitchers can go out and sign two or three high priced free agents to make the team better.

 

[Quin]

Eh, if I had to choose between what would likely just be Bryant and lesser prospects vs a package of Schwarber/Edwards++ I think I'd go with the package of multiple studs.

 

I said "starts" with. The Cubs would not like what it ends with.

[LDF]

They're not trading Rizzo...or Bryant, IMO

 

I think they'll go after someone like Sonny Gray and offer Schwarber and Baez, etc.

 

you are prob right, this post at this time was too good to passed this up. i was really expected a harsher response.

 

many thanks.

[fathom]

Really THAT'S your take away? Which of the Cubs starters would you trade straight up for Rodon, Sale or even Q? Hammel's old. Lester is old and expensive. Arrieta's is 30 and has a season and a half of success. Hendricks isn't good. And the POINT wasn't are the Cubs good...which I think they are...but they built around hitting and their pitching, irrespective of team ERA is a bit shaky. The Sox will lose Shark off their payroll next year and with five cheap starting pitchers can go out and sign two or three high priced free agents to make the team better.

 

Hammel is only 2 years older than Samardzija is. I would take Arrieta over Quintana, but Arrieta is about to become very expensive. You add David Price to those 3 next season, and they have the makings of a very good staff to go with what should be a studly offense.

[OmarComing25]

Really THAT'S your take away? Which of the Cubs starters would you trade straight up for Rodon, Sale or even Q? Hammel's old. Lester is old and expensive. Arrieta's is 30 and has a season and a half of success. Hendricks isn't good. And the POINT wasn't are the Cubs good...which I think they are...but they built around hitting and their pitching, irrespective of team ERA is a bit shaky. The Sox will lose Shark off their payroll next year and with five cheap starting pitchers can go out and sign two or three high priced free agents to make the team better.

Lester really isn't that old, and Arrieta looks like the real deal, you're selling him short. Hammel has been one of the better pitchers in the league this year. As fathom pointed out too, they have plenty of assets to add another pitcher. Their pitchers might not be super young but they're not really old either.

[southsider2k5]

Cubs conversations start with Bryant or the Sox hang up.

 

There is literally no reason for the Sox to discuss a Chris Sale deal with the Cubs without Bryant in it. The Cubs will never do it, so it is a waste of a conversation.

[Southwest Sider]

As much as I would love a package of some of the Cubs prospects, first and foremost I believe Bryant is deemed untouchable.

 

And they're just going to sign Price in the offseason and keep their good young players.

[LDF]

Really THAT'S your take away? Which of the Cubs starters would you trade straight up for Rodon, Sale or even Q? Hammel's old. Lester is old and expensive. Arrieta's is 30 and has a season and a half of success. Hendricks isn't good. And the POINT wasn't are the Cubs good...which I think they are...but they built around hitting and their pitching, irrespective of team ERA is a bit shaky. The Sox will lose Shark off their payroll next year and with five cheap starting pitchers can go out and sign two or three high priced free agents to make the team better.

 

i don't know about that. i would include him and any deal as a kick in players. someone who can go straight to the rotation and be a option for a couple of yrs, until the studs get ready to step in.

[LDF]

As much as I would love a package of some of the Cubs prospects, first and foremost I believe Bryant is deemed untouchable.

 

And they're just going to sign Price in the offseason and keep their good young players.

bingo.... i am for that.

[southsider2k5]

I have a hard time saying this team needs 3-4 years to win. With the pitching they have in Chicago and in the pipe, they can put together good to great staffs (barring unforseen injuries which are a risk across all teams anyway) continuously for that period. And usually, pitching is the hardest part to build.

 

They need better offense and defense from the entire skill infield set and catcher. That should be the focus. If enough of those 4 positions can improve substantially, you have a contending team. That's not an easy task, but we are also only talking about 4 positions so it isn't impossible.

 

Yes Avisail is a worry, but he's the least of your problems if this teams skill infield and catcher were putting up even league average numbers on both sides of the ball. That's literally all it would take, in my view, to make the Sox contenders in 2016 - league average or better (both sides) players at those 4 roles.

 

(before anyone screams, I am not saying you can't also improve elsewhere, just that the OF and 1B/DH are either good enough or having unusually bad years so they aren't a priority in my eyes)

 

I really feel like the talent is there. Something is poisoning the well on the South Side. This entire franchise just took a gigantic leap backwards, all at the same time. That doesn't happen without a reason. I don't know if it is clubhouse problems, leadership problems, management problems, or everything rolled into one.

 

The talk with Ventura has always been that his demeanor would keep the team calm and relaxed. This team has looked the opposite. They look tight and distracted. They play like someone in the dugout is holding a gun to their head. There is no patience in any phase of the game right now. When guys get on base, they are looking to hit a six run homer on the first pitch. Alexei has a double play ball hit to him, and he is looking to turn it into a quadruple play. Anytime something bad happens, the team just melts down. There is no confidence to be had anywhere. No swagger at all. They play like they expect the worst to happen.

 

Something needs to change. If it is a trade to get rid of the problem player/s, or if it is a coaching problem, just fire them.

 

That being said, I think the talent is there. Even if you get these guys back to being average as a whole, instead of a f***ing terrible team, there is space to go. This is a team that could win in a year if whatever is wrong internally is fixed.

 

 

[Balta1701]

I have a hard time saying this team needs 3-4 years to win. With the pitching they have in Chicago and in the pipe, they can put together good to great staffs (barring unforseen injuries which are a risk across all teams anyway) continuously for that period. And usually, pitching is the hardest part to build.

 

They need better offense and defense from the entire skill infield set and catcher. That should be the focus. If enough of those 4 positions can improve substantially, you have a contending team. That's not an easy task, but we are also only talking about 4 positions so it isn't impossible.

 

Yes Avisail is a worry, but he's the least of your problems if this teams skill infield and catcher were putting up even league average numbers on both sides of the ball. That's literally all it would take, in my view, to make the Sox contenders in 2016 - league average or better (both sides) players at those 4 roles.

 

(before anyone screams, I am not saying you can't also improve elsewhere, just that the OF and 1B/DH are either good enough or having unusually bad years so they aren't a priority in my eyes)

 

 

I completely agree with you. Just think to 2004 off-season (leading up to 2005), we added Pods / Iguchi / Dye / AJP. That is a CF / 2B / RF / C. If we were able to pull off a coup like that again, all of which were avg. to above avg starters at their respective positions, we'd be a serious contender. I don't think we even necessarily have to go to that extreme, although we clearly need to see significant roster turnover in the everyday lineup. Where that comes from, I don't know, but we do have assets in our farm system to move (plus Shark and potentially a guy like Q). This could include people like Tim Anderson who we flip for other prospects if we see fit.

For the counterpoint...I see this as exactly what we tried to do this year. "Oh we just need to overpay for a few league-average players". Now we've wound up with 5 holes by your count, 6-7 by mine. Even if we go by your count ont he FA market, we're talking about adding $50 million again, to a payroll already at $110 million.

 

But the sad thing is of course, I pretty much expect us to do something like that. Blow another $20 million trying to find league-average players, fail to fix anything else, go into next year with another solid payroll, win 70 games, and then come up with another plan for the next year that winds up with us winning 72. Because that's the White Sox organization.

[LDF]

I really feel like the talent is there. Something is poisoning the well on the South Side. This entire franchise just took a gigantic leap backwards, all at the same time. That doesn't happen without a reason. I don't know if it is clubhouse problems, leadership problems, management problems, or everything rolled into one.

 

The talk with Ventura has always been that his demeanor would keep the team calm and relaxed. This team has looked the opposite. They look tight and distracted. They play like someone in the dugout is holding a gun to their head. There is no patience in any phase of the game right now. When guys get on base, they are looking to hit a six run homer on the first pitch. Alexei has a double play ball hit to him, and he is looking to turn it into a quadruple play. Anytime something bad happens, the team just melts down. There is no confidence to be had anywhere. No swagger at all. They play like they expect the worst to happen.

 

Something needs to change. If it is a trade to get rid of the problem player/s, or if it is a coaching problem, just fire them.

 

That being said, I think the talent is there. Even if you get these guys back to being average as a whole, instead of a f***ing terrible team, there is space to go. This is a team that could win in a year if whatever is wrong internally is fixed.

 

the best description on what is happening.

 

but that is what is bothering me. everyone is blaming RV without knowing what is the main source of trouble. i also understand and i am not giving RV a free ride. he has screwed up in my opinion, but this is a infestation in the clubhouse.

Edited June 23, 2015 by LDF

[LDF]

For the counterpoint...I see this as exactly what we tried to do this year. "Oh we just need to overpay for a few league-average players". Now we've wound up with 5 holes by your count, 6-7 by mine. Even if we go by your count ont he FA market, we're talking about adding $50 million again, to a payroll already at $110 million.

 

But the sad thing is of course, I pretty much expect us to do something like that. Blow another $20 million trying to find league-average players, fail to fix anything else, go into next year with another solid payroll, win 70 games, and then come up with another plan for the next year that winds up with us winning 72. Because that's the White Sox organization.

 

the sox should be addressing several fronts and i am not going to touch on the major trade ideas.

 

i would like the sox to trade some of their surplus minor leaguers, yeah, i know they may not bring in a lot, but some comp money or int't money as an exchange, or young prospects in the over top 20 ranked.

 

second, between now and july 2 really identify some good players and / or go hog wild.

 

trade a couple of the near of the top prospects to get better prospects at positions that the sox need.

 

so in other words, retool the foundation of the systems.

[Señor Ding-Dong]

Ffs.

1. The Sox need to start over.

2. They are 3-4 years from winning.

3. Sale and Abreu have small windows.

4. The Sox shouldn't be afraid to move them.

5. They don't sell tickets.

6. Southsider has a long standing argument that the Sox can't afford to rebuild because of the fickle fanbase.

 

1. We wouldn't need to start over if our players would just play to their career averages, but apparently that's impossible to do in a Sox uniform.

 

Virtually everyone has regressed, from guys like Eaton and Gillaspie who were solid for us last year to our big free agent signings/trade acquisitions like Cabrera and Samardzija. Even Abreu has regressed, though that's not entirely his fault.

 

If our guys were playing to their career averages or even reasonably close to it, I have no doubt we'd be in the thick of it even with cruddy defense.

 

2. We could/should be winning right now, but instead we're underachieving. If this continues, we're probably a lot more than three to four years away from winning given our dearth of position player prospects and our inability to develop those we do have.

 

3. I agree that Abreu's window is pretty small, but why Sale? He's 26 years-old and at worst a top three pitcher in baseball. The injury concerns have been mostly unfounded up to this point. I think he has a lot of time left as an elite player.

 

4. No team should ever be afraid to move anyone, but that doesn't mean they should move them just because they can.

 

5. So?

 

6. The Sox can't afford to rebuild because they're largely incapable of developing position players. I like Rick Hahn and the moves he's made. They were good moves on paper, they just haven't worked out for whatever reason. Having said that, the philosophy of this organization is flawed and outdated, and as long as Kenny Williams, Buddy Bell, and Doug Laumann are around that's unlikely to change.

 

Unless they're MLB-ready or very close to it, I would hate to trade our cornerstones for position player prospects as I have absolutely no confidence that our organization will be able to develop them properly.

 

I would say our best bet is is to hope our players rebound to their career norms and shop players like Samardzija, Ramirez, Danks, etc. or clean house in the front office and embrace a philosophy that's founded on baseball skills and defense rather than raw athleticism and power. Neither of those things are likely to happen, so things look pretty bleak right now.

[TaylorStSox]

1. We wouldn't need to start over if our players would just play to their career averages, but apparently that's impossible to do in a Sox uniform.

 

Virtually everyone has regressed, from guys like Eaton and Gillaspie who were solid for us last year to our big free agent signings/trade acquisitions like Cabrera and Samardzija. Even Abreu has regressed, though that's not entirely his fault.

 

If our guys were playing to their career averages or even reasonably close to it, I have no doubt we'd be in the thick of it even with cruddy defense.

 

2. We could/should be winning right now, but instead we're underachieving. If this continues, we're probably a lot more than three to four years away from winning given our dearth of position player prospects and our inability to develop those we do have.

 

3. I agree that Abreu's window is pretty small, but why Sale? He's 26 years-old and at worst a top three pitcher in baseball. The injury concerns have been mostly unfounded up to this point. I think he has a lot of time left as an elite player.

 

4. No team should ever be afraid to move anyone, but that doesn't mean they should move them just because they can.

 

5. So?

 

6. The Sox can't afford to rebuild because they're largely incapable of developing position players. I like Rick Hahn and the moves he's made. They were good moves on paper, they just haven't worked out for whatever reason. Having said that, the philosophy of this organization is flawed and outdated, and as long as Kenny Williams, Buddy Bell, and Doug Laumann are around that's unlikely to change.

 

Unless they're MLB-ready or very close to it, I would hate to trade our cornerstones for position player prospects as I have absolutely no confidence that our organization will be able to develop them properly.

 

I would say our best bet is is to hope our players rebound to their career norms and shop players like Samardzija, Ramirez, Danks, etc. or clean house in the front office and embrace a philosophy that's founded on baseball skills and defense rather than raw athleticism and power. Neither of those things are likely to happen, so things look pretty bleak right now.

 

I think the Sox should purge the entire organization and start over. There is precedence. As constructed, it's clearly not working.

 

I'd be open to trading Sale because I don't think it's ever wise to work under the assumption that a pitcher will remain dominant over the course of several years. Sure, there are plenty that do, but I wouldn't count on it

 

Obviously, it's tough with Sale because you'll never get equal value, but we're so far away that it won't matter.

 

Even if most of the players were playing to expectations, we'd be mediocre to bad IMO. This team doesn't have a lot of talent and it's the worst defensive team I've ever seen. I don't think much of Eaton or Ave and I don't like Johnson and Anderson as middle infield prospects.