OmarComing25 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:52 PM) So he's saying trade Sale and his $150 million in value and get $100 million in value back. Yeah, that should make you a better team. That's $100 million in theoretical prospect value if all prospects pan out too. I mean Sale's $150M of future performance value might be theoretical too, but it's a hell of a lot more likely than counting on some prospects to play well at the major league level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:14 PM) No, not even close. You're really grasping at straws. It's differentiating between "star" and "great player." You're circumventing the argument because it goes against the "we can't rebuild because Sox" crap argument you've made for years. But you defined that distinction specifically on popularity, which is irrelevant. Billboards sell when the brand is popular, and the brand is popular when the team wins. We should only care about talent, not likeability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:16 PM) That's $100 million in theoretical prospect value if all prospects pan out too. I mean Sale's $150M of future performance value might be theoretical too, but it's a hell of a lot more likely than counting on some prospects to play well at the major league level. But you are still giving a $50 million or 33% discount. I know he is taking that as salary, but you are going to have to pay the guys you acquire, and if they aren't as great as advertised, and most usually are not, you are going to have to pay others just to make up that deficit. To me, if you are not winning enough games, trading a guy who is "worth" $150 million and acquiring packages "worth" $100 million means you just lost that trade. I will gladly give anyone $100 for $150 any time they would like. Edited June 23, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:20 PM) But you defined that distinction specifically on popularity, which is irrelevant. Billboards sell when the brand is popular, and the brand is popular when the team wins. We should only care about talent, not likeability. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:20 PM) But you defined that distinction specifically on popularity, which is irrelevant. Billboards sell when the brand is popular, and the brand is popular when the team wins. We should only care about talent, not likeability. Clearly. My point is that the argument in the past has been that the Sox can't afford to trade stars because it will hurt the brand. I think that's hogwash. Chris Sale is obviously a phenomenal pitcher, but he hardly a household name. I think it's foolish to hang on to Sale in hopes that he will be same pitcher 3 or 4 years down the road when the team is ready to contend and even more so with Abreu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Im burying my head in the sand on Sale. If they trade him i will be an extremely sad panda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Sale, nah. Abreu and Quintana? Of course, if it's a really good haul for each. Sale is going to be tough to find a match anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:25 PM) Clearly. My point is that the argument in the past has been that the Sox can't afford to trade stars because it will hurt the brand. I think that's hogwash. Chris Sale is obviously a phenomenal pitcher, but he hardly a household name. I think it's foolish to hang on to Sale in hopes that he will be same pitcher 3 or 4 years down the road when the team is ready to contend and even more so with Abreu. Foolish is thinking that a franchise which can't do something, will all of the sudden people able to do exactly what it hasn't been able to do for decades. Trading Chris Sale would be putting the future of the franchise in the hands of this organizations player development staff. If I am a betting man, I bet on the Chris Sale and Jose Abreu of a few years down the road being better then whatever pile of players we get for them, and don't even think twice about it. I am sure as hell not trading either because they aren't showing up on enough billboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:21 PM) But you are still giving a $50 million or 33% discount. I know he is taking that as salary, but you are going to have to pay the guys you acquire, and if they aren't as great as advertised, and most usually are not, you are going to have to pay others just to make up that deficit. To me, if you are not winning enough games, trading a guy who is "worth" $150 million and acquiring packages "worth" $100 million means you just lost that trade. I will gladly give anyone $100 for $150 any time they would like. I agree with you, I had a big problem with that part of his logic as well. I was pointing out that the chance of the prospects even living up to the $100 million package is pretty unlikely anyway. A $150 million value of proven major league talent should be worth more than a package of $150 million worth of prospect value talent, because you're taking on additional risk with the prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:25 PM) Clearly. My point is that the argument in the past has been that the Sox can't afford to trade stars because it will hurt the brand. I think that's hogwash. Chris Sale is obviously a phenomenal pitcher, but he hardly a household name. I think it's foolish to hang on to Sale in hopes that he will be same pitcher 3 or 4 years down the road when the team is ready to contend and even more so with Abreu. I don't care how many burgers Sale could sell on a McDonald's ad, but he is a star pitcher. You need good players to win. Now, if they don't think they can win for 3 or 4 years, I agree with you, trade them all. I just don't think the White Sox situation is as dire as Cameron is making it. They have the makings of a good pitching staff. The offense is horrendous, but I don't think that means some of these guys like Melky are done. They do have to improve the defense. But if they get the offense to just average and Fulmer is as advertised, and they get something out of a Johnson or Montas or Danish, even out of the bullpen, if the offense is average, which is what it was when they won it all, they can be a contending team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:31 PM) Foolish is thinking that a franchise which can't do something, will all of the sudden people able to do exactly what it hasn't been able to do for decades. Trading Chris Sale would be putting the future of the franchise in the hands of this organizations player development staff. If I am a betting man, I bet on the Chris Sale and Jose Abreu of a few years down the road being better then whatever pile of players we get for them, and don't even think twice about it. I am sure as hell not trading either because they aren't showing up on enough billboards. LOL. I never said you should them. I said you shouldn't be afraid to move them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:38 PM) LOL. I never said you should them. I said you shouldn't be afraid to move them You're making less and less sense with each post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:44 PM) If the Sox trade someone at the top it's going to be Quintana. The Red Sox make a lot of sense to me. Something like Christian Vazquez, Jackie Bradley Jr. and Rafael Devers. Add defense and potential. Then the Sox have 1.) Sale 2.) Rodon 3.) targeted SP with upside to be possibly traded in July 4.) EJ/Fulmer/Beck 5.) Danks With the rotation set up we have, and Fulmer on the way, if anyone goes, Q makes the most sense by far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:41 PM) You're making less and less sense with each post. Ffs. 1. The Sox need to start over. 2. They are 3-4 years from winning. 3. Sale and Abreu have small windows. 4. The Sox shouldn't be afraid to move them. 5. They don't sell tickets. 6. Southsider has a long standing argument that the Sox can't afford to rebuild because of the fickle fanbase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 08:46 PM) With the rotation set up we have, and Fulmer on the way, if anyone goes, Q makes the most sense by far. It would be splendid if Johnson can come up in a month or so and earn the 5th starter spot for next year. It's not likely, but much more possible than it was heading into the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 If the Sox think Schwarber can stick at catcher, they can get Edwards, AND snag Russell or Baez I might do that deal. I think Schwarber is gonna be a monster, and getting Edwards would soften the blow of losing Sale a ton. The rotation with Rodon-Q-Fulmer-Edwards is intriguing as hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:47 PM) Ffs. 1. The Sox need to start over. 2. They are 3-4 years from winning. 3. Sale and Abreu have small windows. 4. The Sox shouldn't be afraid to move them. 5. They don't sell tickets. 6. Southsider has a long standing argument that the Sox can't afford to rebuild because of the fickle fanbase. When you trade guys like Sale and Abreu, you hope to get someone who is like Sale and Abreu down the road. The Sox have both of these guys locked up at well below market prices for the foreseeable future. I don't think they are "scared to move them", but I think the price to acquire both players is so high that neither will be moved - which I am fine with. If the Dodgers come around and offer Urias, Seager and Grandal for Sale - I would think the Sox would be willing to discuss, but anything short of that, forget it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Chris Sale helping the Cubs to a WS would be a devastating blow to this White Sox fan. There is no way if I am Rick Hahn, I would trade Sale to the Cubs unless it was the overpay of all overpays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 08:51 PM) Chris Sale helping the Cubs to a WS would be a devastating blow to this White Sox fan. There is no way if I am Rick Hahn, I would trade Sale to the Cubs unless it was the overpay of all overpays. +10000000000000000000000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I don't know why the extreme pessimism on this site...and Cameron is an idiot for talking about getting rid of Sale. The Cubs went into the tank for years and used it to build up a darn good potential lineup...but they have no pitching. The Sox, with a bit of luck, could have Sale, Rodon, Eric Johnson, Q and Fulmer and have maybe three 1's and two 2's...all under 27. All cheap. Sure they have holes at 2b, 3b, SS, C but they don't need STARS there. They need a team that can score four runs a game and play good defense. The Phillies and Giants have both used that strategy to build recent championship team. The Braves in the 90's were a great pitching team, the Mets in the 80's, the Orioles in the 70's. The Dodgers in the 60's, The Indians in the 50's. This is a legitimate strategy for winning and when the Sox stumbled upon Sale, Q and Rodon...dammit we need to keep on that path and not blow it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:41 PM) You're making less and less sense with each post. The one thing he does say that makes total sense is if the White Sox don't think they can win for 3 or 4 years, they should, if the packages were right, trade these guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:52 PM) +10000000000000000000000 Add me to that, seeing Chris Sale in a Cubs uniform would kill me enough, if he got a ring with them that would be a complete gut-punching blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (michelangelosmonkey @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 08:53 PM) I don't know why the extreme pessimism on this site...and Cameron is an idiot for talking about getting rid of Sale. The Cubs went into the tank for years and used it to build up a darn good potential lineup...but they have no pitching. The Sox, with a bit of luck, could have Sale, Rodon, Eric Johnson, Q and Fulmer and have maybe three 1's and two 2's...all under 27. All cheap. Sure they have holes at 2b, 3b, SS, C but they don't need STARS there. They need a team that can score four runs a game and play good defense. 4th in the NL with a 3.49 ERA, and they have a ridiculous amount of resources now to attract a top of the rotation starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:53 PM) The one thing he does say that makes total sense is if the White Sox don't think they can win for 3 or 4 years, they should, if the packages were right, trade these guys. Aaaaaand no one disagrees with him.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 12:46 PM) With the rotation set up we have, and Fulmer on the way, if anyone goes, Q makes the most sense by far. I agree. I think the premise from Cameron is awful. Trade everyone and blow up, no. But it might make sense to trade one of the cost controlled guys and Q would probably be the best bet. I would have to get blown away though (3 top prospects, 2 of which are top 50 guys). Small market (and big market teams) can both be players, which increases potential return, imo. I think between Shark and Q, we should be able to land 4 top 100 guys and 2 top 50 guys, but again, I might be delirious (plus some other fill in's). I still say a trade centered around Puig and a top prospect from Dodgers could make a ton of sense for Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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