Dave Cameron: Sox Should Sell Sale, Q, and Abreu

[ChiSox59]

I think the Sox should purge the entire organization and start over. There is precedence. As constructed, it's clearly not working.

 

I'd be open to trading Sale because I don't think it's ever wise to work under the assumption that a pitcher will remain dominant over the course of several years. Sure, there are plenty that do, but I wouldn't count on it

 

Obviously, it's tough with Sale because you'll never get equal value, but we're so far away that it won't matter.

 

Even if most of the players were playing to expectations, we'd be mediocre to bad IMO. This team doesn't have a lot of talent and it's the worst defensive team I've ever seen. I don't think much of Eaton or Ave and I don't like Johnson and Anderson as middle infield prospects.

 

Root for the Cubs!!

[chisoxt]

The only way I am trading Sale is for someone elses MLB ready players, and I think the White Sox should explore every avenue of doing this until they find a deal that knocks their socks off.

 

There are 4 reasons why I think we should trade Sale for MLB ready prospects.

 

1) I don't trust the Sox organizational coaching staff to produce MLB capable position players, so prospects that are 2-3 years out are not an option.

2) I don't trust the Sox front office (nor do I think they have the horses) to pull of enough of the right trades and free agency signings to field a competitive team. This 2015 team has proven to me that organizationally developing winning baseball players is the new age model. Catching lightning in a bottle like in 2005 is just what it is, lightning in a bottle. One in a million. You need luck, and I'd rather have an organization that successfully produces MLB capable players then rely on luck any more. 2005 was great but we can't really expect something like that to ever happen again.

3) If he hurts himself and loses his "stuff" after a surgery, our team would be geniuses to have sold him at his highest possible value.

4) If he doesn't hurt himself and succeeds mightily with a new organization, it should have been deemed a "fair" deal as the Sox should have gotten a kings ransom for him.

 

The list of needs for this team are now 3B, SS, 2B, LF, C and potentially CF and RF (I still hold out hope for Eaton and Garcia) and there is no way in hell we are going to produce, sign or trade for enough players that will fill every position. We have a few promising prospects, but not enough to think that we will be able to compete for a title while Chris Sale wears a Sox uniform.

 

I love me some Chris Sale. Many fans will be pissed off, those with Chris Sale jerseys and those who think the Sox would be fools to trade one of the best pitchers in baseball. The Sox most likely will not trade him because it will isolate fans. But so many are already isolated. How many seasons can we be done with baseball by May? If I'm going to be putting up with seasons of being done with baseball in May, there needs to be some kind of light at the end of the tunnel, and I'm just not so sure that there is one right now.

 

Trading Chris Sale can be a franchise changing move. As much as I love him, I'm really hoping some team steps up to the plate and pays the price for him.

Well said. I wonder if the GM has the stones to do it?

[TaylorStSox]

Root for the Cubs!!

That's mature.

[caulfield12]

They don't have stars as it is. They have some great players, but they aren't stars. It really couldn't be worse. Sale and Abreu don't sell tickets. Baseball doesn't work like that anymore. Winning and beer sells tickets.

 

The team is abysmal. Attendance is abysmal. They don't have the assets to build around the 3 or 4 good players they have. They're dangerously close to being the Raiders of baseball.

 

 

I don't know if there's a single player in baseball who would draw crowds by his mere presence on a .500 or lower White Sox team.

 

We tried this Albert Belle, albeit one of the most unlikable players in the game. This offseason, at least part of Samardzija's addition was marketing-related.

 

Even guys like Mike Trout, Stanton, Bryant, Puig or Miguel Cabrera aren't going to move the meter after so many years of not making the playoffs.

 

I remember quite distinctly, living in Kansas City....they would get at least 5,000-7,500 more fans per game when Greinke was pitching in that Cy Young season and the rest of the team was terrible...or Toronto, getting a similar bump for Roy Halladay starts when they weren't close to sniffing the playoffs.

 

With this current Sale streak of greatness, you could probably chart all those home starts and not see an appreciable cause and effect attendance-wise between him and John Danks or Jose Quintana pitching. Same thing with Rodon and Fulmer...exciting prospects, but very few fans are buying tickets to watch pitchers unless it's Nolan Ryan, Dwight Gooden, Fernando Valenzuela, Mark The Bird Fidyrch (rookie phenoms). And that's another area where KW's philosophy of "entertaining" home run hitters (crowds like offense when the the team's not winning) is coming to fruition under the Cubs now with their growing collection of hitters.

 

 

[caulfield12]

But you defined that distinction specifically on popularity, which is irrelevant. Billboards sell when the brand is popular, and the brand is popular when the team wins. We should only care about talent, not likeability.

 

 

There are some obvious exceptions, like Stanton/Jose Fernandez in Miami, Harvey in NYC and Trout when the Angels weren't making the playoffs, Harper/Strasburg too, although that team reached the playoffs quickly enough...but the last couple of seasons.

[caulfield12]

I don't know why the extreme pessimism on this site...and Cameron is an idiot for talking about getting rid of Sale. The Cubs went into the tank for years and used it to build up a darn good potential lineup...but they have no pitching. The Sox, with a bit of luck, could have Sale, Rodon, Eric Johnson, Q and Fulmer and have maybe three 1's and two 2's...all under 27. All cheap. Sure they have holes at 2b, 3b, SS, C but they don't need STARS there. They need a team that can score four runs a game and play good defense. The Phillies and Giants have both used that strategy to build recent championship team. The Braves in the 90's were a great pitching team, the Mets in the 80's, the Orioles in the 70's. The Dodgers in the 60's, The Indians in the 50's. This is a legitimate strategy for winning and when the Sox stumbled upon Sale, Q and Rodon...dammit we need to keep on that path and not blow it up.

 

 

We've lost more than one run per game from LAST season's offense by trying to improve it in the off-season, and somehow simultaneously managed to degrade the defense as well.

 

That said, they have no choice but to try to fix it on the fly again and hope like hell that either Tim Anderson, Micah Johnson or Courtney Hawkins are legit big league regulars (two out of three).

[caulfield12]

I agree. I think the premise from Cameron is awful. Trade everyone and blow up, no. But it might make sense to trade one of the cost controlled guys and Q would probably be the best bet. I would have to get blown away though (3 top prospects, 2 of which are top 50 guys). Small market (and big market teams) can both be players, which increases potential return, imo. I think between Shark and Q, we should be able to land 4 top 100 guys and 2 top 50 guys, but again, I might be delirious (plus some other fill in's). I still say a trade centered around Puig and a top prospect from Dodgers could make a ton of sense for Sox.

 

 

Is the world coming to an end?

 

He would end up like Sosa in his brief White Sox career, somehow.

 

 

The Sox will lose Shark off their payroll next year and with five cheap starting pitchers can go out and sign two or three high priced free agents to make the team better.

 

From earlier in the thread...one thing is for sure, I hope there's a better plan than this.

 

Edited June 24, 2015 by caulfield12

[LDF]

I don't know if there's a single player in baseball who would draw crowds by his mere presence on a .500 or lower White Sox team.

 

We tried this Albert Belle, albeit one of the most unlikable players in the game. This offseason, at least part of Samardzija's addition was marketing-related.

 

Even guys like Mike Trout, Stanton, Bryant, Puig or Miguel Cabrera aren't going to move the meter after so many years of not making the playoffs.

 

I remember quite distinctly, living in Kansas City....they would get at least 5,000-7,500 more fans per game when Greinke was pitching in that Cy Young season and the rest of the team was terrible...or Toronto, getting a similar bump for Roy Halladay starts when they weren't close to sniffing the playoffs.

 

With this current Sale streak of greatness, you could probably chart all those home starts and not see an appreciable cause and effect attendance-wise between him and John Danks or Jose Quintana pitching. Same thing with Rodon and Fulmer...exciting prospects, but very few fans are buying tickets to watch pitchers unless it's Nolan Ryan, Dwight Gooden, Fernando Valenzuela, Mark The Bird Fidyrch (rookie phenoms). And that's another area where KW's philosophy of "entertaining" home run hitters (crowds like offense when the the team's not winning) is coming to fruition under the Cubs now with their growing collection of hitters.

 

 

i have been reading your post and i will disagree with some of this. Rizzo, Trout, Stanton, Bryant, Puig will undoubtedly bring in the fans. the fans will really get on the bandwagon for the power display on 1 or these players. in addition, they have that certain charisma that tv likes. well maybe not as much as trout but Puig will have more than enuf to do it by himself.

 

re the pitching, yeah that was great to watch esp with the antics of the bird. but some fans may not appreciate pitchers as much as hitters.

[michelangelosmonkey]

We've lost more than one run per game from LAST season's offense by trying to improve it in the off-season, and somehow simultaneously managed to degrade the defense as well.

 

That said, they have no choice but to try to fix it on the fly again and hope like hell that either Tim Anderson, Micah Johnson or Courtney Hawkins are legit big league regulars (two out of three).

 

I don't think they've "lost" more than a run per game from last season. There's a randomness to baseball...sometimes a .950 OPS guys has an .870 OPS 70 game stretch. Maybe Laroche has become old all of a sudden or maybe he's just had a bad stretch. Maybe it's just a string of bad luck. But what I think we know is that Sale for three years has been a legitimate ace with the stuff to throw a shut out every time. We know that Q has for three years been one of the better pitchers in baseball. That's your base from which you build. I think...hell everyone thinks the White Sox got very lucky with Rodon. It is not inconceivable that Rodon and Sale become Koufax and Drysdale...Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling. No one gets that kind of luck but when you have it you then try to patch and build around them. You add the very solid Q and then Fulmer and Eric Johnson...why is it crazy to think in two years you have the best rotation in baseball? The Brewers are a blow it up organization. The White Sox have Sale, Rodon and Q and it would be madness to give up now.

 

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Trading Sale is laughable. He's a young ace and cost controlled. Add in a young Rodon, solid Q. This team can move on from Samardzija and sign a big ticket pitcher to add to the rotation of Sale, Q and Rodon. Sale is too young and too good to just trade away. The asking price would be astronomical. Has to be because of how good he is and cost controlled.

[LDF]

I don't think they've "lost" more than a run per game from last season. There's a randomness to baseball...sometimes a .950 OPS guys has an .870 OPS 70 game stretch. Maybe Laroche has become old all of a sudden or maybe he's just had a bad stretch. Maybe it's just a string of bad luck. But what I think we know is that Sale for three years has been a legitimate ace with the stuff to throw a shut out every time. We know that Q has for three years been one of the better pitchers in baseball. That's your base from which you build. I think...hell everyone thinks the White Sox got very lucky with Rodon. It is not inconceivable that Rodon and Sale become Koufax and Drysdale...Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling. No one gets that kind of luck but when you have it you then try to patch and build around them. You add the very solid Q and then Fulmer and Eric Johnson...why is it crazy to think in two years you have the best rotation in baseball? The Brewers are a blow it up organization. The White Sox have Sale, Rodon and Q and it would be madness to give up now.

i agree, this group of sox pitchers, if not traded, the sox will have a great group of pitchers that can make the history book.

 

the problem is the holes in the team, how best to fix them, if the sox can't trade some of their pitchers.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Sucks that we could have such good pitching in the future yet no hope for a good lineup.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Bigsoxhurt35

[Bob Sacamano]

Trading Sale is laughable. He's a young ace and cost controlled. Add in a young Rodon, solid Q. This team can move on from Samardzija and sign a big ticket pitcher to add to the rotation of Sale, Q and Rodon. Sale is too young and too good to just trade away. The asking price would be astronomical. Has to be because of how good he is and cost controlled.

 

The idea that you think the Sox would sign a "big ticket pitcher" is also laughable.

[LDF]

The idea that you think the Sox would sign a "big ticket pitcher" is also laughable.

 

yeah you are right about that. but, and i am guilty of hoping in that big ticket pitcher. that big ticket pitcher is needed. look at the players assembled and try to imagine this rotation next yr. minus shark, the sox still has a hole in the rotation. they will need to get someone.

 

and i really hoped they learned their lesson of just assuming the pitchers in the minors will automatically fill that hole.

Edited June 24, 2015 by LDF

[Balta1701]

That said, they have no choice but to try to fix it on the fly again and hope like hell that either Tim Anderson, Micah Johnson or Courtney Hawkins are legit big league regulars (two out of three).

Yes they do. They absolutely have a choice to realize how little actual talent they have in this organization and put a priority on fixing that...for example by considering moving guys like Quintana or, if a magical, unbelievable offer appeared, Sale. At the same time though that requires doing the opposite of what you said - not trying to fix it on the fly, not trying to put a bandaid on a gushing wound.

[caulfield12]

The real question is who will put on the brakes in the front office now and preach patience...one step forward, two steps back, etc.?

 

It hasn't ever been JR or KW's style...and for a GM beginning to have a target on his back (if he doesn't make any changes), his job longevity won't exactly be helped by "rebuilding" now when the fanbase was promised the 2016-2019 window of getting back into the playoff hunt.

[LDF]

Yes they do. They absolutely have a choice to realize how little actual talent they have in this organization and put a priority on fixing that...for example by considering moving guys like Quintana or, if a magical, unbelievable offer appeared, Sale. At the same time though that requires doing the opposite of what you said - not trying to fix it on the fly, not trying to put a bandaid on a gushing wound.

 

a really nice metaphor.

 

but i still think they can do it on the fly. this team is a nice looking one at some of the key positions.

 

the top 30 of the sox prospects list is way overrated. they need to clean out most of that and retool.

 

but i hate to say this, the holes on the team, cat, 1 sp 3b and yeah even ss needs addressing, how?? they esp don't have the prospects in the minors. their whole way of addressing it, is fvvck up with their proverbial head up their arse and it is way deep inside the body.

 

so the point is, as much as i hate to admit it, a sp may be needed to be traded. so that mean they will need 2 sp.

[LDF]

The real question is who will put on the brakes in the front office now and preach patience...one step forward, two steps back, etc.?

 

It hasn't ever been JR or KW's style...and for a GM beginning to have a target on his back (if he doesn't make any changes), his job longevity won't exactly be helped by "rebuilding" now when the fanbase was promised the 2016-2019 window of getting back into the playoff hunt.

 

it really isn't patience that is needed. it is bodies. real certified prospects, not the spin doctoring that the sox FO does.

 

re the bold, remember if they are not happy, regardless of the team, they will blame the fan base, b/c they don't come out. it is always easy to blame some else for their incompetence.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

The idea that you think the Sox would sign a "big ticket pitcher" is also laughable.

Ya I know lol but it's me being hopeful.

[Dick Allen]

Ya I know lol but it's me being hopeful.

I don't think it's laughable at all. I fully suspect even if they trade him, the White Sox try to bring Samardzija back.

[LDF]

Ya I know lol but it's me being hopeful.

 

i am with you, but i really don't think they have a choice.

 

that is unless they give it to montas.... i just hope they are not assuming that Fulmer can come in and take a spot.

 

i also hope they are not thinking of Drabek or EJ can come in and taking a spot. it is their assuming that drives me crazy.

Edited June 24, 2015 by LDF

[Balta1701]

but i still think they can do it on the fly. this team is a nice looking one at some of the key positions.

I think they'll try because that's what they do, I think it will work as well as it has for the past half decade, and we'll be up to 5 losing seasons in 6 years.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I didn't read any of this but Dave Cameron is the smartest guy in the room. All you have to do is ask him. f*** him.

[GreenSox]

Astros and Cubs weren't build through the proceeds of sell-offs. They were built through the draft. Oh, they got pieces here and there through trades (esp. Cubs), but it's evaluation, development and drafting. The Sox are poor at all 3.

The only team that sells well is the As.

[OmarComing25]

Astros and Cubs weren't build through the proceeds of sell-offs. They were built through the draft. Oh, they got pieces here and there through trades (esp. Cubs), but it's evaluation, development and drafting. The Sox are poor at all 3.

The only team that sells well is the As.

That's not really true, the only significant contributor on the Cubs this year that they drafted is Bryant. Everyone else came through free agency or savvy trades.

 

EDIT: Even if you count Castro and Soler (though they weren't acquired through the draft), those two are hardly the reason the Cubs have been successful this year, Castro in particular.

Edited June 24, 2015 by OmarComing25