Team Defense

[Chisoxfn]

Rank dead last in baseball per fangraphs (Padres are team ahead of us). Over the past 3 years, we rank 3rd from the end having given up an etxra 102 runs vs. a league average defense. The difference between the Sox defense during that span and the Royals defense is 301 runs. Yes, i said that right, 301 runs. Absolutely appalling. Consistent though cause we have ranked in bottom 3 spots past 2 seasons and now own the bottom spot this year. Tribe and Astros are only teams that rank worse.

 

How the front office could have built a team around pitching when the defensive metrics were that bad (and completely ignore defense) is just awful. Things have to change and since we know they won't be fired for the mess, a tight leash should be placed on them and expectations should be set by JR that things will change and need to change. I can live with offensive struggles or other things, but to ignore defense for 2 separate off-seasons while building a team around pitching, well, its just inexcusable.

[greg775]

Rank dead last in baseball per fangraphs (Padres are team ahead of us). Over the past 3 years, we rank 3rd from the end having given up an etxra 102 runs vs. a league average defense. The difference between the Sox defense during that span and the Royals defense is 301 runs. Yes, i said that right, 301 runs. Absolutely apalling. Consistent though cause we have ranked in bottom 3 spots past 2 seasons and now own the bottom spot this year. Tribe and Astros are only teams that rank worse.

 

Wow.

This is why we knew after six weeks of baseball that this team was crap and needed to start trading its pieces immediately. You can't win with defense like this.

[Chisoxfn]

Wow.

This is why we knew after six weeks of baseball that this team was crap and needed to start trading its pieces immediately. You can't win with defense like this.

Except it isn't six weeks. It is an on-going trend with 2 full years of data (2013 & 2014). By the way, I will be the first to admit I'm not a defensive metric expert so I don't know whether these are viewed as the best defensive metrics or not, but my eyes have long said we stunk and the stats back it up so while I don't know how accurate those runs saved (or in our case, given up) are, but clearly we are an awful defensive team anyway you spin it. Even by the most basic metrics, such as errors as a percentage of put outs or balls in play, we suck.

[southsider2k5]

Can we use sarcasm quotes to describe this teams "defense'?

[shago]

Robbbbin, Robbbbinn

[Balta1701]

For reference, if you go over the last decade, 2006-2015, we're 2nd worst in baseball. Only Cleveland is worse.

[The Ginger Kid]

Whose job is to produce a better defensive team? The GM or the coach? I say the weight falls on the GM. Like you said, how can anyone in their right mind build a team around pitching but fail to improve a pathetic defensive team.

[Balta1701]

Whose job is to produce a better defensive team? The GM or the coach? I say the weight falls on the GM. Like you said, how can anyone in their right mind build a team around pitching but fail to improve a pathetic defensive team.

You could do that if your offense was going to be really solid too. You can prevent runs using the pitchers and then win games by pumping out runs. That's been almost the Tigers formula the past few years.

[chitownsportsfan]

Sure, but think of how bad the offense would be if they brought in guys that could field. Wait what?

Edited June 24, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[caulfield12]

You could do that if your offense was going to be really solid too. You can prevent runs using the pitchers and then win games by pumping out runs. That's been almost the Tigers formula the past few years.

 

 

And even the Tigers were smart enough to realize with the losses of Scherzer and Verlander that they'd need to tighten up their defense.

 

So they added Gose, Iglesias and worked with Castellanos on improving his defense. They at least had a plan and made some moves to improve a weak spot.

[LDF]

Whose job is to produce a better defensive team? The GM or the coach? I say the weight falls on the GM. Like you said, how can anyone in their right mind build a team around pitching but fail to improve a pathetic defensive team.

 

this goes way back to the time when the new sox park open up and not too many runs were being scored, per the owners opinion. so what did they do. move the fence in to make it more of a hitters park.

 

then they wanted hitters who scored runs, why, to bring the fans out to the park .

 

so now, many yrs later, same formula, get batters who can score and defense??? who cares the fans will come out, they will buy more concessions and beer.... and if lucky, it will be a tight season going into aug for a wild card spot.

 

but at least the team made $$$.

 

~~~ edit, dang that sounds so much like $$ Bill.

Edited June 24, 2015 by LDF

[southsider2k5]

Sure, but think of how bad the offense would be if they brought in guys that could field. Wait what?

 

Yet so many people are ready to send Sanchez out for Micah Johnson.

[The Ginger Kid]

And even the Tigers were smart enough to realize with the losses of Scherzer and Verlander that they'd need to tighten up their defense.

 

So they added Gose, Iglesias and worked with Castellanos on improving his defense. They at least had a plan and made some moves to improve a weak spot.

Because Dombrowski is pretty smart, his bullpen failings aside

[Chicago White Sox]

Yet so many people are ready to send Sanchez out for Micah Johnson.

Sanchez is one of the worst players in baseball right now. On a per game or plate appearance basis, his WAR is way worse than Micah's. And while I don't believe WAR to be the be-all-end-all, I think it demonstrates that Sanchez's bat is arguably worse than Johnson's defense. We suck both offensively & defensively, so I'm not sure why we sacrifice overall value to prioritize one side of the ball over the other. Give me the best player possible and so far this year that player has been Micah.

[SCCWS]

And even the Tigers were smart enough to realize with the losses of Scherzer and Verlander that they'd need to tighten up their defense.

 

So they added Gose, Iglesias and worked with Castellanos on improving his defense. They at least had a plan and made some moves to improve a weak spot.

 

I agree but that may be giving them too much credit. The Tigers knew they were losing Peralta to suspension so they desperately needed a SS. Hahn wanted an outfielder rather than Iglesias so they jumped in the Peavy trade and solved the replacement for Peralta. But I doubt they make that trade if Peralta didn't get caught. Their scouts certainly did a great job identifying how good Iglesias was. Their defense got better and we got Avi.

 

[Vance Law]

How the front office could have built a team around pitching when the defensive metrics were that bad (and completely ignore defense) is just awful.

 

They haven't "built" this team. They 'are building' this team. And the previous two seasons whose defense you reference was during the process of them tearing down and selling off the old team.

 

Catching defense doesn't seem like it's been a major problem. Fangraphs says Soto's better. And he now seems to be starting half the games.

 

Abreu is going to play first base. Just like Miguel Cabrera plays first base and you put up with his deficiencies.

 

Sanchez has been pretty excellent in the field. Micah was terrible which is why he's not playing there now and won't unless/until he becomes at least passable.

 

Alexei was excellent last year. He seems to have some unforeseen mental issues going on this year. Even still, Fangraphs has him as the #16 defensive shortstop.

 

Gillaspie is bad at third. Beckham is above average. Gillespie has gone from being the starter last year to being a platoon player with a late-inning defensive caddie, to now not even getting every start against righties. All while you and I and Rick Hahn and everyone else knows he is not the long-term plan at third. But if he simply hit up to his career average against righties could make for a fine platoon guy. But he hasn't hit that well this year. Several White Sox players haven't hit that well this year. Many people where clamoring for a free agent upgrade at third last year. Those people should look at what Pablo Sandoval (5 years $95 million) is doing. Fangraphs has him as the worst defensive third baseman in baseball by a good margin. Chase Headley (4 years $52 million) is #27. There would be reason to be upset with Rick Hahn if he had shelled out all that money.

 

Cabrera isn't great, but he's at least in the neighborhood of average and an enormous improvement over Viciedo.

 

Eaton has not played well which is disappointing because he has the ability to be excellent as we've all seen. And the f.o./coaching staff are aware, based his benching for not playing where they've told him to. He seems to be a s***ty meathead who would do a lot better if he didn't try to overwork that tiny brain. He should be fine if he just blindly busts his ass and does what the brain people tell him to do.

 

Garcia has been bad. He's the one player with some possibility of being here longer term from whom you expect to see some improvement. This will also be his first full season (if he makes it through). He also seems to be dealing with a knee problem. Maybe he'll hit enough that you worry less about the defense. Maybe he needs a defensive caddie and more time at DH. Maybe he doesn't hit enough to warrant him having the job. Those questions will answer themselves over time. Again, first half of his first full season. And you'll note he hasn't bee offered a long term extension.

 

The Cabrera signing is the closest thing to longish term commitment (at only 3 years) to a player who's subpar defensively. And he's not that bad. And he can move to DH after a couple years if he's still here.

[Soxfest]

It is obvious Alexei does what he wants when he wants. His defense is terrible and he has no fear of being benched.

[Vance Law]

It is obvious Alexei does what he wants when he wants. His defense is terrible and he has no fear of being benched.

 

I agree that some sort of mental thing is going on and I'd be happy to see Beckham at short for a couple/few games for Alexei to collect himself.

[caulfield12]

‘‘The White Sox, they should be ashamed of themselves the way they’re playing,’’ a veteran scout who has seen the Sox play about a dozen times in person this season said...They had two good games against the Rangers [victories Saturday and Sunday], played good baseball, and then they come out and play a game like [a 13-2 loss Monday to the Twins]. It’s unacceptable. It’s shameful.’’

 

‘‘Errors, bad throws, mental errors,’’ the scout said. ‘‘Defense and guys not hitting in the clutch. For players, it’s not OK. This is the major leagues...Ramirez is going backwards on both sides,’’ the scout said. ‘‘He was one of the best in the game last year. Now he’s one of the worst.’’

 

‘‘I’m sure Robin is doing his best,’’ the scout said. ‘‘Maybe one time he should fake it and throw something against the wall. This is unacceptable, and Robin has to know it. Maybe he has handled it. I don’t know what is done behind the scenes.’’

 

 

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/71...med-31-39-start

[caulfield12]

They haven't "built" this team. They 'are building' this team. And the previous two seasons whose defense you reference was during the process of them tearing down and selling off the old team.

 

Catching defense doesn't seem like it's been a major problem. Fangraphs says Soto's better. And he now seems to be starting half the games.

 

Abreu is going to play first base. Just like Miguel Cabrera plays first base and you put up with his deficiencies.

 

Sanchez has been pretty excellent in the field. Micah was terrible which is why he's not playing there now and won't unless/until he becomes at least passable.

 

Alexei was excellent last year. He seems to have some unforeseen mental issues going on this year. Even still, Fangraphs has him as the #16 defensive shortstop.

 

Gillaspie is bad at third. Beckham is above average. Gillespie has gone from being the starter last year to being a platoon player with a late-inning defensive caddie, to now not even getting every start against righties. All while you and I and Rick Hahn and everyone else knows he is not the long-term plan at third. But if he simply hit up to his career average against righties could make for a fine platoon guy. But he hasn't hit that well this year. Several White Sox players haven't hit that well this year. Many people where clamoring for a free agent upgrade at third last year. Those people should look at what Pablo Sandoval (5 years $95 million) is doing. Fangraphs has him as the worst defensive third baseman in baseball by a good margin. Chase Headley (4 years $52 million) is #27. There would be reason to be upset with Rick Hahn if he had shelled out all that money.

 

Cabrera isn't great, but he's at least in the neighborhood of average and an enormous improvement over Viciedo.

 

Eaton has not played well which is disappointing because he has the ability to be excellent as we've all seen. And the f.o./coaching staff are aware, based his benching for not playing where they've told him to. He seems to be a s***ty meathead who would do a lot better if he didn't try to overwork that tiny brain. He should be fine if he just blindly busts his ass and does what the brain people tell him to do.

 

Garcia has been bad. He's the one player with some possibility of being here longer term from whom you expect to see some improvement. This will also be his first full season (if he makes it through). He also seems to be dealing with a knee problem. Maybe he'll hit enough that you worry less about the defense. Maybe he needs a defensive caddie and more time at DH. Maybe he doesn't hit enough to warrant him having the job. Those questions will answer themselves over time. Again, first half of his first full season. And you'll note he hasn't bee offered a long term extension.

 

The Cabrera signing is the closest thing to longish term commitment (at only 3 years) to a player who's subpar defensively. And he's not that bad. And he can move to DH after a couple years if he's still here.

 

 

The thing with Cabrera is Detroit doesn't have a DH in Victor Martinez who's Gold Glove caliber behind him, he's pretty much awful at every position C or 1B, especially now with the knee problems. LaRoche, on the other hand, is only the third player of the starters who could at least be above average (along with Eaton and Ramirez).

 

As far as Alexei Ramirez goes, see the quotes from a veteran scout I pasted above. To counter, Defensive Runs Saved has both Eaton and Alexei Ramirez as 25th (out of 27) and 27th in the majors, and anybody's who has watched the White Sox this season can absolutely testify to that....they both made errors again in Wednesday's game.

 

Beckham and Sanchez aren't long-term solutions (due to their offensive shortcomings).

 

The best thing we can say about Tyler Flowers is that he's good at pitch framing. Soto has actually been better (recently) at throwing, probably due to the fact that he's getting into a rhythm from playing more frequently. But he's too old to be a long-term solution.

 

 

As noted, the biggest issues are Eaton and Avisail, because they're supposedly part of the long-term core. Ramirez, too, has hurt simply because everyone had the idea they needed to pick up his option and at least have his steady defense behind the pitching when the team was legitimately attempting to compete in 2016.

 

So you have three players sliding or regressing (Eaton, in particular, is inexplicable)...three positions that you need to replace (3B, 2B, C)....Melky Cabrera, who throws well and that's about it, he won't get any better at this stage of his career...and the debatable decision to play Abreu over LaRoche.

Edited June 25, 2015 by caulfield12

[Baron]

Clearly his best isnt enough

[The Ginger Kid]

They haven't "built" this team. They 'are building' this team.

Building? That implies progress. They aren't getting better. 31-40 today (last place). 34-37 this time last year (2nd to last). 30-41 in '13 (last place). If we were watching a bunch of young guns who we knew were taking their lumps then I'd be fine. This is futility.

[The Ginger Kid]

‘‘The White Sox, they should be ashamed of themselves the way they’re playing,’’ a veteran scout who has seen the Sox play about a dozen times in person this season said...They had two good games against the Rangers [victories Saturday and Sunday], played good baseball, and then they come out and play a game like [a 13-2 loss Monday to the Twins]. It’s unacceptable. It’s shameful.’’

 

‘‘Errors, bad throws, mental errors,’’ the scout said. ‘‘Defense and guys not hitting in the clutch. For players, it’s not OK. This is the major leagues...Ramirez is going backwards on both sides,’’ the scout said. ‘‘He was one of the best in the game last year. Now he’s one of the worst.’’

 

‘‘I’m sure Robin is doing his best,’’ the scout said. ‘‘Maybe one time he should fake it and throw something against the wall. This is unacceptable, and Robin has to know it. Maybe he has handled it. I don’t know what is done behind the scenes.’’

 

 

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/7/71/71...med-31-39-start

Daryl Van Schouwen seems to be the only beat writer who takes management to task for the product on the field. Seeking out that scout's opinion was terrific.

[caulfield12]

Building? That implies progress. They aren't getting better. 31-40 today (last place). 34-37 this time last year (2nd to last). 30-41 in '13 (last place). If we were watching a bunch of young guns who we knew were taking their lumps then I'd be fine. This is futility.

 

 

Therein lies the problem.

 

Eaton (contract), Cabrera (contract), Abreu, LaRoche and probably Avisail Garcia are the only players who will even be on the roster this time next year.

 

While Anderson just won the MVP of his All-Star game, his defensive challenges (along with Micah and Courtney Hawkins, who's likely to be similar to Cabrera, at best, due to his size) are well-documented.

 

Rondon, Sanchez and Trayce can't hit well enough to be more than bench players.

 

And the catching situation is the most glaring. Until that problem is fixed, and we bring in a real leader with a strong personality who can control the game defensively (at least), then we're stuck in neutral if not going backwards because we're wasting AB's on players that aren't part of the future.

Edited June 25, 2015 by caulfield12

[Vance Law]

And the catching situation is the most glaring. Until that problem is fixed, and we bring in a real leader with a strong personality who can control the game defensively (at least), then we're stuck in neutral if not going backwards because we're wasting AB's on players that aren't part of the future.

 

Soto has actually been worth .5 WAR, (tied with AJP for #19) which is why he's playing a lot more now. The bad news: Josh Phegley is worth 1.2, #9 in baseball. Any person who says they saw that coming is full of 100% s***.