Team Defense

[caulfield12]

Soto has actually been worth .5 WAR, (tied with AJP for #19) which is why he's playing a lot more now. The bad news: Josh Phegley is worth 1.2, #9 in baseball. Any person who says they saw that coming is full of 100% s***.

 

 

We knew that Phegley could hit (he went on a tear the first 2-3 weeks up with the White Sox) but that he was incredibly limited defensively.

 

We also knew that he would strike out a lot.

 

He had 52 K's in 241 Ab's (21.6%) with the Sox. He's cut that down to 12 in 91 AB's with the A's (13.2%).

[chitownsportsfan]

Really great and level headed thread and lots of great posts. I think every post has had well articulated critiques of the franchise -- and it's deserved.

 

It's hard to really fathom how bad the Sox have been defensively but then you put a figure like roughly 100 runs per year worse than a good club (KC) over the past 3 years and yea, it makes sense.

 

Given what the scout posted and how brutal guys like Eaton and Ramirez and Avi and hell even Conor and Jose have been, it really seems like something is going majorly wrong in the coaching department. For the most part, these are young guys or guys in their prime that are really struggling.

 

I will continue to harp on how RV let Eaton walk in with his dick dragging on the floor in the spring and how out of sorts Eaton has looked all year. Someone needed to give the "big time" talk to the kid and it's clear that either never happened or if anything was said, the message was inefective.

Edited June 25, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[Vance Law]

We knew that Phegley could hit (he went on a tear the first 2-3 weeks up with the White Sox) but that he was incredibly limited defensively.

 

We also knew that he would strike out a lot.

 

He had 52 K's in 241 Ab's (21.6%) with the Sox. He's cut that down to 12 in 91 AB's with the A's (13.2%).

 

I don't think with his .221 OBP with the Sox in 250 plate appearances anyone assumed he'd hit remotely like this and that includes Billy Beane. That said, he will come back down to earth.

[chitownsportsfan]

I don't think with his .221 OBP with the Sox in 250 plate appearances anyone assumed he'd hit remotely like this and that includes Billy Beane. That said, he will come back down to earth.

 

And with that said, when is the LAST TIME the Sox caught lighting in a bottle?

 

Every. Single. FA. that has come here has gotten worse or at best stayed roughly the same. A few (Melky, Dunn) have been historically awful. How the f*** does that keep happening? Coaching. Scouting. Both at the same time, poor all of it.

[caulfield12]

Really great and level headed thread and lots of great posts. I think every post has had well articulated critiques of the franchise -- and it's deserved.

 

It's hard to really fathom how bad the Sox have been defensively but then you put a figure like roughly 100 runs per year worse than a good club (KC) over the past 3 years and yea, it makes sense.

 

Given what the scout posted and how brutal guys like Eaton and Ramirez and Avi and hell even Conor and Jose have been, it really seems like something is going majorly wrong in the coaching department. For the most part, these are young guys or guys in their prime that are really struggling.

 

I will continue to harp on how RV let Eaton walk in with his dick dragging on the floor in the spring and how out of sorts Eaton has looked all year. Someone needed to give the "big time" talk to the kid and it's clear that either never happened or if anything was said, the message was inefective.

 

 

Whether it was the pressure of the extension (self-inflicted?), Eaton's "disappearance" has been the most troubling aspect for the future, as he was supposedly the "straw that stirs the drink."

 

If Avi doesn't make it, that's one thing, corner outfielders are easier to come by...but CFer's/leadoff guys (and Eaton's still not a base-stealer, he's regressed there and baserunning in general has been awful) are even harder to come by. It seems like Williams/Hahn and Co. have spent the last decade looking at CF/leadoff, 3B and now catcher.

 

The lack of production from 1-2 in the order has also had an adverse affect on Abreu, IMO.

 

Finally, when your team's not getting solid leadership from the catching position, and doesn't have a dynamic force at manager...it's a recipe for disaster.

 

What is filling the void?

 

Well, we're seeing it everyday, it's coming out and expressing itself in the lackadaisical/disinterested style of play.

 

 

[caulfield12]

And with that said, when is the LAST TIME the Sox caught lighting in a bottle?

 

Every. Single. FA. that has come here has gotten worse or at best stayed roughly the same. A few (Melky, Dunn) have been historically awful. How the f*** does that keep happening? Coaching. Scouting. Both at the same time, poor all of it.

 

 

Easy, 2005 and then 2008 (Linebrink in the first half, Danks' Blackout Game, Alexei's grand slams, Carlos Quentin's MVP campaign, Gavin Floyd, Griffey, Jr., barely hanging on).

 

You could argue that stretch in 2010 (guys like Vizquel helping the infield stability) and 2012 (Youkilis for 3 weeks, all the rookie pitchers, Quintana, Reed, Santiago, Nate Jones and a cast of 7-8 more who have disappeared from MLB rosters).

 

Of course, in the end, Liriano, Hudson, Myers and Youk all turned out to be major disappointments in the end.

 

Don't get me started on the money wasted on Manny Ramirez.

 

 

As far as FA's though, it goes back to 2005....a full decade of "your what hurts?" (Whimperoo reference).

And Ramirez/Abreu.

Edited June 25, 2015 by caulfield12

[Baron]

You know I was thinking about a few years ago with Alex Rios. Right about when this transformation Hahn tried to do had taken place. Alex Rios had been jogging to first base and playing stupid in the OF the entire year. But JUST before the trade deadline Robin benches him for jogging to first.

 

Look at what's going on this year. Issues all year and he benches Eaton recently. Well great but the problems are going on. He gets mad in the dug out the other day. He really has a problem with making moves late in the process. We saw signs of it years ago but now it's really evident. Now the players have completely given up on him.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2015 by Baron

[Vance Law]

And with that said, when is the LAST TIME the Sox caught lighting in a bottle?

Jose Abreu?

 

And I don't think you can consider 100 plate appearances of Josh Phegley or any player as lightning in a bottle.

 

Every. Single. FA. that has come here has gotten worse or at best stayed roughly the same. A few (Melky, Dunn) have been historically awful. How the f*** does that keep happening? Coaching. Scouting. Both at the same time, poor all of it.

 

I don't know what sport you are watching, but most free agents don't suddenly get better unless prior to that they sucked. Players tend to peak in their late twenties. They become free agents in their late twenties and early thirties.

 

 

 

[Vance Law]

Whether it was the pressure of the extension (self-inflicted?), Eaton's "disappearance" has been the most troubling aspect for the future, as he was supposedly the "straw that stirs the drink."

 

He's played some bad defense and some boneheaded plays. He appears to be an idiot. But he has hit quite well over the past 2 months- .268/.343/.393/.737 (prob closer to about .750 OPS including today's 2 for 4). I'm not too concerned about his ability to play, just to get his head out of his ass.

 

[greg775]

I "almost" feel sorry for Eaton on today's blunder. When you think a guy caught the ball u can go braindead. He took responsibility in his quotes. I think his hustle has been OK all year, he's just sucked big time.

[greg775]

You've gotta be bleepin me. Now we go to Detroit?? For four games?? Geezus I hate baseball's schedule. Now we cure Detroit's ills. Sox take one if lucky. More likely Four game sweep coming considering our defense will kick it all over that big stadium. My gawd.

Edited June 25, 2015 by greg775

[Brian]

I "almost" feel sorry for Eaton on today's blunder. When you think a guy caught the ball u can go braindead. He took responsibility in his quotes. I think his hustle has been OK all year, he's just sucked big time.

 

The lack of hustle that pissed me off was at the end of that play when he saw it was dropped and slowed down before touching the bag. He would've been safe if he ran through it.

 

I don't blame him for stopping cuz I thought it was caught as well.

[Bob Sacamano]

You've gotta be bleepin me. Now we go to Detroit?? For four games?? Geezus I hate baseball's schedule. Now we cure Detroit's ills. Sox take one if lucky. More likely Four game sweep coming considering our defense will kick it all over that big stadium. My gawd.

 

And no Sale in this series. I bet a 4-game sweep officially makes them sellers.

[caulfield12]

Just when you think the season will totally fall apart, the White Sox will win 2-3 in a row and that will buy more time for Hahn (and Ventura) not to be the face of public worry/panic.

 

Although you're starting to see more pointed criticisms coming from game stories, whether it's about Eaton, Alexei or quotes from scouts about the way the White Sox are playing.

 

Rodon vs. Simon

Quintana vs. Sanchez

Danks vs. Kyle Ryan

Samardzija vs. Price

 

Should be one win in there, SOMEWHERE.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Here's an interesting "reader's comment" from BIG DATA BASEBALL (the story of the 2013 Pittsburgh Pirates)

 

Specifically, about the current overshifting trend and whether it's beneficial or not.

 

 

Much of the book centers around the Pirates exploiting the pitch framing skills of Martin and the use of big data to employ defensive shifts. According to Sawchik, those strategies were a big part of why the Pirates were able to reach the post-season in 2013. He might be right. But, for me, his case is fairly weak and, given that the blogosphere has started to question the value (or perhaps, more accurately, the over-value) of pitch framing (Dave Cameron at Fangraphs - http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/jonathan-lu...nd-the-nl-mvp/) and shifting (Steve Moyer from Inside Edge - http://www.wsj.com/articles/baseballs-shif...ork-1410304648), I was anticipating Sawchik diving deeper into the actual value of these stats. Instead he accepts them at face value. To wit:

 

1. On page 107 he notes that 1% more batted balls were being converted into outs in 2013 versus 2007. That's true. But he states that such a decrease was causing more teams to shift. The reality is, year-over-year fluctuations in BABIP (batting average on balls in play) are typical and, further, the largest drop in BABIP occurred before teams were shifting heavily - BABIP dropped from .303 in 2007 to .300 in 2008 and down to .299 in 2009. In 2010, BABIP was .297. It dropped to .295 in 2011 and then in both 2012 and 2013 - when shifts were being employed more - BABIP went up to .297. It went up even more in 2014 to .300. So, crediting shifts with a slight drop in BABIP when a) BABIP fluctuations are normal and b) BABIP actually rose as teams started to shift more is not a good argument from Sawchik.

 

2. On page 110, he points to the decrease in runs scored as more evidence that shifting is working (the exact quote is "the ultimate proof of runs being cut down due to big data") while completely ignoring the fact that home runs have decreased over the last couple of seasons. From 4934 dingers in 2012 to 4661 in 2013 to just 4186 in 2014. Fewer home runs has had a much larger influence on the decrease in runs scored than shifting has. Yet Sawchik points to lower run totals as evidence of the value of shifting.

 

3. On pages 147 and 148, Sawchik discusses the Defensive Runs Saved stat at fangraphs.com. He states - correctly - that the Pirates had a 93 run improvement in that stat between 2012 and 2013 and goes on to mention how many wins that is worth. What he fails to take into account is the year-over-year fluctuations in the DRS stat for a given team are usually in the 30 to 40 range. So, he has likely over-stated the value of shifting.

 

4. Sawchik fails to tackle the fact that sometimes shifting doesn't lead to an improvement (as noted in the Wall Street Journal article linked to above) in DRS. For example, on page 107, Sawchik has a table from Baseball Info Solutions that shows the Toronto Blue Jays shifted 2.5 times more often in 2014 (686 shifts) than in 2013 (249 shif=ts), yet their DRS went down by 46 when 2013 is compared with 2014. Maybe they were doing it wrong? More likely, defensive metrics like this aren't perfect and lead to shifting being over valued.

 

As an odd side note, Sawchik mentions (on page 122) the Pirates desire to have their starting pitchers move to more of a 'pitch to contact' philosophy from of a 'swing and miss' philosophy. The hope would be shorter at bats for their opponents and longer outings for Pirate starters. Sawchik fails to mention that this approach either wasn't employed or didn't work. Pirates starters in 2013 finished first in the National League in K/9 and finished 13th in innings pitched. They were missing bats and they weren't pitching deep into games.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1250063507/ref=as...1789437267_6848

 

 

 

I'm almost ready to say the success of the Pirates is about the front office and coaching staff being on the same page, and all of the players buying into the system, whether it's actually better or more effective (shifting), the players seem to believe it works and that, in a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, leads to better results and playoff contention. Of course, the Pirates' teams in 2013, 14 and 15 are also very talented, let's not forget that key point.

 

 

 

[shysocks]

The Cabrera signing is the closest thing to longish term commitment (at only 3 years) to a player who's subpar defensively. And he's not that bad. And he can move to DH after a couple years if he's still here.

I would throw in Avi too. They haven't committed to him contractually, but they have committed with playing time, and as bad as he is, I have to think his deficiencies were evident when they traded for him.

[caulfield12]

Two things I would do, starting today.

 

Hire Jose Molina or Yorvit Torrealba to work with Sox catchers on improved pitch framing.

 

Hire the best quant/data analysis people from Sportsvision, which is already located there in Chicago.

 

We have Fabian and Jeremy Haber, but we need to have at least 4-5 more industry experts working on this (not interns)...the most important point, they absolutely need to convince Ventura to adopt at least some of the changes, because the White Sox feel like they're in the dark ages defensively.

 

We've already seen breakdowns with our video replay people, for another example.

 

Edited June 25, 2015 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Dan Hayes ‏@CSNHayes 2m2 minutes ago

 

Robin Ventura wanted to give Alexei Ramirez a day off to clear his head. #WhiteSox http://bit.ly/1LrXDhU

[caulfield12]

Dan Hayes ‏@CSNHayes 2m2 minutes ago

 

Robin Ventura wanted to give Alexei Ramirez a day off to clear his head. #WhiteSox http://bit.ly/1LrXDhU

 

Maybe need to try a season off. Or series.

 

 

0 for 8 against Simon, 9 for 37 against Price, 4 for 20 against Anibal Sanchez.

 

He is 2/5 against Kyle Ryan, at least.

Edited June 25, 2015 by caulfield12

[Vance Law]

I would throw in Avi too. They haven't committed to him contractually, but they have committed with playing time, and as bad as he is, I have to think his deficiencies were evident when they traded for him.

 

Yes, and it's clear their hope is that with his athleticism and youth, he'll improve. That will or won't happen. He'll either hit and defend enough to be worthwhile or he won't, but he has to be given some time to do that and obviously missing most of last year pushed that timeline back.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, and it's clear their hope is that with his athleticism and youth, he'll improve. That will or won't happen. He'll either hit and defend enough to be worthwhile or he won't, but he has to be given some time to do that and obviously missing most of last year pushed that timeline back.

 

 

I 100% agree with the bolded, and think anyone who does not is a dope.

[The Ginger Kid]

He's played some bad defense and some boneheaded plays. He appears to be an idiot. But he has hit quite well over the past 2 months- .268/.343/.393/.737 (prob closer to about .750 OPS including today's 2 for 4). I'm not too concerned about his ability to play, just to get his head out of his ass.

I thought he was also credited as working well with pitchers, no?

[The Ginger Kid]

Two things I would do, starting today.

 

Hire Jose Molina or Yorvit Torrealba to work with Sox catchers on improved pitch framing.

I endorse this message

[southsider2k5]

Two things I would do, starting today.

 

Hire Jose Molina or Yorvit Torrealba to work with Sox catchers on improved pitch framing.

 

 

I endorse this message

 

Flowers and Soto rank 5th and 7th in the AL currently according to this page. 12th and 14 if you scan for all baseball.

 

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

[caulfield12]

Flowers and Soto rank 5th and 7th in the AL currently according to this page. 12th and 14 if you scan for all baseball.

 

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

 

 

What I should have said was to work as a roving instructor at both the major and minor league levels, because it's already an ingrained trait with Flowers (at least according to the stats).

 

What were Nieto's stats in this area last year? Also with Kevan Smith, Austin and especially our young Latin American catching prospects (Arizona/Dominican Summer League, etc.)

Edited June 26, 2015 by caulfield12