2015-16 NHL thread

[southsider2k5]

you got a point, but most times they will not learn until something like this.

 

In Kane's case it is actually worse, because he has already put himself into multiple bad situations over the years. This isn't even his first time being the spotlight of a public incident.

[LDF]

In Kane's case it is actually worse, because he has already put himself into multiple bad situations over the years. This isn't even his first time being the spotlight of a public incident.

 

you are right, he may never learn. but this may be 2 totally different situations.

 

kid needs to grow up.

[shipps]

They have speculated that Kane didnt like how Foley introduced him at the parade saying that he has grown up. Kane refused to shake his hand after that? And that is what lead him to say what he said about not acting like a grown up next week. I didnt watch the parade so I dont know how much truth there is to all of this.

 

If it is true I think I hate his guts even more now. Disrespect Foley who was giving you a sincere compliment?.. Motherf***er.

[LDF]

Sure it is.

 

He represents a very visible organization and he is a very visible celebrity. Because of that, he is not in the same class of people that are so eloquently talking about their past hookups in this thread. Stop trying to compare the situations. They aren't the same, at all.

 

and i am not even talking about that, show me where i said anything like that. i usually skip over that stuff.

 

i am saying being judge and jury over something without know the whole truth is not something that most should be aware of. it is human nature to do that.

 

 

[RockRaines]

no it doesn't this is what i mean by someone who thinks they know the answers and is totally wrong.

 

a women, regardless of age, regardless of sobriety, regardless of how much or howl little she has on, if she says no..... it mean NO!!!

 

this has been taken to and backup all the way to the supreme courts.

Huh? I was talking about the impending legal case. WIth alcohol and little to no physical evidence the cases almost always get thrown out.

[Jake]

Huh? I was talking about the impending legal case. WIth alcohol and little to no physical evidence the cases almost always get thrown out.

 

There are lots of jurisdictions where a drunk victim is itself sufficient evidence. If the victim is past some threshold of drunkenness (some places it is 0.08, others a fuzzier standard, others there is no consideration given), the sexual aggressor whether drunk him or herself or not is held accountable for having sex with someone who cannot provide consent. You would presumably still have to convince a court that victim was not the one initiating the encounter, though. According to this website, it would seem that would not apply in New York as alcohol could facilitate date rape there but apparently only if alcohol was provided w/o consent (unclear how you'd go about doing that).

Edited August 7, 2015 by Jake

[RockRaines]

There are lots of jurisdictions where a drunk victim is itself sufficient evidence. If the victim is past some threshold of drunkenness (some places it is 0.08, others a fuzzier standard, others there is no consideration given), the sexual aggressor whether drunk him or herself or not is held accountable for having sex with someone who cannot provide consent. You would presumably still have to convince a court that victim was not the one initiating the encounter, though. According to this website, it would seem that would not apply in New York as alcohol could facilitate date rape there but apparently only if alcohol was provided w/o consent (unclear how you'd go about doing that).

They took her blood on sunday, not sure they would get anything other than the fact alcohol was ingested, unless there was video or photographic evidence of her passed out.

[LDF]

Huh? I was talking about the impending legal case. WIth alcohol and little to no physical evidence the cases almost always get thrown out.

 

no they don't if the vic is claiming rape.

 

 

[LDF]

They took her blood on sunday, not sure they would get anything other than the fact alcohol was ingested, unless there was video or photographic evidence of her passed out.

 

they are talking blood to as a possible check of drugs in the systems. if drugs are found, then it will be up the people involve to determine what kind of drugs.....

[RockRaines]

no they don't if the vic is claiming rape.

Yes they do. Thats why even with the extremely high number of date rapes that take place especially on college campuses that very few are actual prosecuted. When its word against word with basically no evidence they get tossed. Its not hard to find the statistics behind rape and especially date rape.

[LDF]

Yes they do. Thats why even with the extremely high number of date rapes that take place especially on college campuses that very few are actual prosecuted. When its word against word with basically no evidence they get tossed. Its not hard to find the statistics behind rape and especially date rape.

 

find it, b/c a lot of time the victims gets really embarrass on this and drops the charges.

[Jake]

find it, b/c a lot of time the victims gets really embarrass on this and drops the charges.

 

More often they don't speak up at all because they fear the repercussions, reliving the trauma with the police/courts, and many times feel so ashamed that they spend time believing that it was all their own fault

[Buehrle>Wood]

http://t.co/ekTNP8zfnX

 

ugh this article is spreading like wildfire and it's gross. Such complete holier-than-thou trash and reads like a thinly veiled attack on Kane.

[iamshack]

I'm not saying random sex is immoral, I'm saying him using his power for random sex instead of worthwhile goals people not in his status couldn't otherwise attain, and also compromising his family career and friends int he process, makes him a horrible human being.

Wow!

 

This argument in regards to how Patrick Kane should somehow need to screen everyone he sleeps with out of some obligation to the Blackhawks, that is really a big fat crock of s***. Let's stop pretending as though the Blackhawks are doing Kane some tremendous favor by paying him millions of dollars to play hockey for them. Do you think that for one second, if Patrick Kane's skills deteriorated to the point where his production no longer exceeded or equaled his compensation that they wouldn't trade his ass in a second? Something tells me that his place as the "face of the organization" wouldn't matter much if he was no longer a superstar hockey player creating a windfall of revenue for them. Let's be f***ing honest here - Patrick Kane makes millions of dollars to play hockey. He is not obligated to be a perfectly moral person. He is not obligated to represent the Blackhawks in his personal life. The Blackhawks and other organizations may wish to place this burden on their employees, but it is generally not something that continues after their skills have diminished.

 

Say what you want about the guy being a dumbass, and if he did indeed rape the woman, then he deserves the appropriate punishment by law. That being said, this notion that he can't be a young adult doing what young adults do because he is compensated by the Blackhawks is ludicrous. He receives absolutely no consideration for having such limitations put on his ability to simply be a human being.

 

Additionally, this faux outrage about boys being boys and whores chasing money is absolutely ridiculous and simply ignoring reality. People can talk all they want about chivalry and some new moral code where men wouldn't possibly believe that a woman who comes to his home the very evening he first meets her wants to f*** him, but that's ignoring common sense and reality. How many people do you bring to your home the very night you meet them if not for some specific, special purpose? How many times, if not to have sex, have you invited or been invited to someone's home in the middle of the night when you simply do not know them? When I say special purpose, I'm meaning someone is throwing a party or my car died outside your house, etc. If you are a heterosexual person, how many people of the same sex have you invited to your home from the bar on the first night you met them?

 

I don't know Patrick Kane. To my knowledge, none of you do either. At the very least, I can say with some level of certainty that none of you are close and personal friends with Patrick Kane. I don't care what Patrick Kane chooses to do on any day other than those days in which he is playing hockey for the Blackhawks, and frankly, he is not beholden to me in anyway to do anything at any time. He has simply entered into a contract to perform services. I would be absolutely shocked if having consensual sex WITH ANYONE was a service not condoned by his contract. Again, if he has violated the law, he will serve the punishment.

Edited August 8, 2015 by iamshack

[iamshack]

jesus christ no, going home with someone does not mean that you have to have sex with them

You are correct. It does not mean you have to have sex with them.

 

However, it clearly shows a possible intention to do so.

 

When one cannot determine what actually happened (because it is one person's word against another), evidence of possible intent is a very obvious clue to consider.

 

Let's be honest, SS...If I bring a gun to a bank, that doesn't mean I intended to rob the place, but it sure as hell makes it appear as though that was my intention.

 

 

[iamshack]

http://t.co/ekTNP8zfnX

 

ugh this article is spreading like wildfire and it's gross. Such complete holier-than-thou trash and reads like a thinly veiled attack on Kane.

I just find it odd that many holier than thou people, such as this author, somehow feel like not condemning him is to defend him.

 

Maybe I don't care what he does in his personal life?

[iamshack]

You have a very skewed interpretation of what is expected by a professional sports franchise and their athletes under contract.

Tony, I highly respect your opinion and so I'm interested in debating this with you. Please don't take this as anything personal, because it is not.

 

That being the case, the expectations of a professional sports franchise and what is truly owed to the franchise by the athlete are two completely different things.

 

I understand the world we live in, and I understand that high-profile athletes live under a microscope more so today than ever before. I understand the compensation afforded to high-profile athletes has come about in part to that microscope. Television has created incredible sums of money to be made, both by franchises and athletes alike. To pretend as though those sums of money do not come with expectations of being a reasonably decent human being and representing the franchise on and off the field/court/ice is naive.

 

But there has to be a line drawn. In my opinion, asking a 26 year old to "vet" every sexual partner is crossing that line. To be frank, part of the allure of that compensation is indeed the ability to have this "power" that you and others have described. Money means nothing in and of itself; what is alluring to us all is what money affords us. To say that sex is not something money affords is to deny reality.

 

Again, I am operating off the facts as we know them today. If it turns out that he raped her, then he should face the full consequences of his actions. But if what happened is he had sex with a woman at his home in the middle of the night after meeting her in a bar that same night, and now she has accused him of raping her, well, I cannot condemn him for that. All the points you made about being a target and having power because of who he is are entirely supportive of a conclusion that without further evidence, there simply is not enough to go on to accuse him of anything other than being a 26 year old guy looking to let off a little steam.

 

If having sex in one's own home is somehow outside of the expectations the organization has for him, than they have a ridiculous set off expectations placed upon him.

[iamshack]

Also, I realize I didn't even touch on the role of the organization. Again, having experience in that realm, you ABSOLUTELY have a responsibility to represent the franchise on and off the ice. You ARE the organization, in the most visible sense. And you're right, as soon as his skills begin to deteriorate, he will be shown the door. That's business. Both the organization and player know that going into any deal.

 

But while you are contracted to your team, you have a responsibility to represent the organization you are linked to and our paying your salary. Are the Blackhawks asking Kane and the rest of the players to not go out? Absolutely not. The organization plays a huge role in the "late night bar tour" the Cup goes on every year after a victory. It's part of the game. But again, there is a certain level of expectation to comport yourself in a somewhat professional manner, and to not put yourself in these type of compromising positions, which I don't think is asking a lot from an organization.

 

People are taking this argument to the extreme saying "So what, Kane can never have a beer and talk to a girl at a bar anymore?" That's not what I'm saying at all.

I completely agree a player has a responsibility to represent the franchise on and off the ice. What I don't agree with is that that responsibility extends to vetting every sexual partner one takes. By signing a contract and accepting compensation, an athlete does not give up his right to being a human being with human needs. The athlete does not give up his right to enjoying his compensation and the enjoyment that compensation affords in a reasonable manner. If that is indeed the expectation of the organization, I would say there needs to be additional consideration given to the player, in the form of no trade clauses, more guaranteed money, and honestly, more services provided to the player. The organization is allowed to treat the athletes as commodities, because "that's business." Well, if this is just "business," then that "business" does not extend to any responsibility by the athlete to do anything other than simply performing his duties on the field of play. The organization cannot have it both ways. It cannot simultaneously require the athlete to accept being treated like cattle or soybeans, to be used up and then discarded after their utility has diminished, while also requiring the athlete to be an "ambassador" representing the organization 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If they want tor receive the benefits of employing a human being, that expectation should extend to more humane treatment of the athlete as well.

[LDF]

Wow!

 

This argument in regards to how Patrick Kane should somehow need to screen everyone he sleeps with out of some obligation to the Blackhawks, that is really a big fat crock of s***. Let's stop pretending as though the Blackhawks are doing Kane some tremendous favor by paying him millions of dollars to play hockey for them. Do you think that for one second, if Patrick Kane's skills deteriorated to the point where his production no longer exceeded or equaled his compensation that they wouldn't trade his ass in a second? Something tells me that his place as the "face of the organization" wouldn't matter much if he was no longer a superstar hockey player creating a windfall of revenue for them. Let's be f***ing honest here - Patrick Kane makes millions of dollars to play hockey. He is not obligated to be a perfectly moral person. He is not obligated to represent the Blackhawks in his personal life. The Blackhawks and other organizations may wish to place this burden on their employees, but it is generally not something that continues after their skills have diminished.

 

Say what you want about the guy being a dumbass, and if he did indeed rape the woman, then he deserves the appropriate punishment by law. That being said, this notion that he can't be a young adult doing what young adults do because he is compensated by the Blackhawks is ludicrous. He receives absolutely no consideration for having such limitations put on his ability to simply be a human being.

 

Additionally, this faux outrage about boys being boys and whores chasing money is absolutely ridiculous and simply ignoring reality. People can talk all they want about chivalry and some new moral code where men wouldn't possibly believe that a woman who comes to his home the very evening he first meets her wants to f*** him, but that's ignoring common sense and reality. How many people do you bring to your home the very night you meet them if not for some specific, special purpose? How many times, if not to have sex, have you invited or been invited to someone's home in the middle of the night when you simply do not know them? When I say special purpose, I'm meaning someone is throwing a party or my car died outside your house, etc. If you are a heterosexual person, how many people of the same sex have you invited to your home from the bar on the first night you met them?

 

I don't know Patrick Kane. To my knowledge, none of you do either. At the very least, I can say with some level of certainty that none of you are close and personal friends with Patrick Kane. I don't care what Patrick Kane chooses to do on any day other than those days in which he is playing hockey for the Blackhawks, and frankly, he is not beholden to me in anyway to do anything at any time. He has simply entered into a contract to perform services. I would be absolutely shocked if having consensual sex WITH ANYONE was a service not condoned by his contract. Again, if he has violated the law, he will serve the punishment.

 

in every contract that pro players sign has a moral clause in the contract per approval of both the players association and the owners reps.

 

however i like your post.

[iamshack]

Not at all Shack, not attacking you or anyone else at all, forums like these are meant for these type of discussions with different opinions.

 

Listen, one thing I haven't said yet that I feel strongly about, is if Kane is convicted, but found to be 100% innocent in court, I don't believe this should stay with him for the rest of his career. Do I feel like it was still an error in judgement to get involved with a girl like this? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean it should be a career death sentence.

 

Now, it goes without saying that if he is found guilty, then he deserves whatever is coming to him. At this point in time, you have to simply wait out any judgement on what actually happened, because we have no idea. It is frustrating to read "Oh geez, this girl just probably made it up because it's Kaner." Is that possible? 100%, but it's equally as possible something very bad happened that night, and it's 100% unfair to the victim to paint her in a bad light.

 

Anyway, you are smart enough to know that I'm not implying that Kane has to wait to have sex until he is married or anything outlandish like that. BUT, after the incidents that Kane has been involved in over the last 5 years, along with dozens of Deadspin posts over the years with Kane drunk and out at bars, it starts to add up. You don't see those with Toews. You don't see them with Crosby. Derek Jeter was one of the most visible bachelors in our time playing in the biggest media market in the world. He clearly did it the "right way".

 

Shack, as you know I've been around high level athletes for a while now, and I know the temptations that are present. I've never said these guys can't go out and do there thing and live a privileged life. But there are certain precautions every highly visible athlete needs to take before crossing a certain line with the opposite sex. Hey, there have been thousands of athletes that have rolled the dice over the years and never gotten into trouble. Good for them. But when you are at the level that Kane is at, you become a gigantic target, and you need to take certain precautions. We are seeing what can happen(assuming for the sake of this post he is innocent).

I understand the difference between Kane and Jeter. Hell, even Jordan.

 

That being said, my issue is not with understanding that. My issue is with the expectation that the organization deserves that. That Kane is somehow not "allowed" to do what he does because he happens to be a high-profile athlete.

 

Maybe it's the law school education in me, but I just think that part of the trappings of being a high-profile athlete is the ability to do these things. To claim the organization has a reasonable expectation of denying the very thing they are supposedly providing is simply unfair.

Edited August 8, 2015 by iamshack

[iamshack]

in every contract that pro players sign has a moral clause in the contract per approval of both the players association and the owners reps.

 

however i like your post.

And that clause does not extend to not seeking out human needs. Nor does that clause require a vetting process be undergone for all prospective sexual partners.

 

If he is convicted, my guess is the Blackhawks could absolutely terminate his contract based on that clause.

[LDF]

And that clause does not extend to not seeking out human needs. Nor does that clause require a vetting process be undergone for all prospective sexual partners.

 

If he is convicted, my guess is the Blackhawks could absolutely terminate his contract based on that clause.

 

no one can do that. i never mention that. but i was saying that there is a clause.

 

between now and the time the final verdict comes down. he is innocent until otherwise.

 

i sometimes get a feeling we are talking about the same thing but express it in different ways.

[Balta1701]

And that clause does not extend to not seeking out human needs. Nor does that clause require a vetting process be undergone for all prospective sexual partners.

 

If he is convicted, my guess is the Blackhawks could absolutely terminate his contract based on that clause.

If convicted I'd assume he'll serve multiple years in jail and would therefore be unable to fulfill his duties to the Blackhawks.

[iamshack]

If convicted I'd assume he'll serve multiple years in jail and would therefore be unable to fulfill his duties to the Blackhawks.

Well of course.

 

If he blew out his knee and could not play for a year or more, he'd be unable to fulfill his duties to the Blackhawks as well.

 

But if the money is guaranteed, obviously he would continue to be paid.

 

This is where the clause comes in.

Edited August 8, 2015 by iamshack

[Dick Allen]

I completely agree a player has a responsibility to represent the franchise on and off the ice. What I don't agree with is that that responsibility extends to vetting every sexual partner one takes. By signing a contract and accepting compensation, an athlete does not give up his right to being a human being with human needs. The athlete does not give up his right to enjoying his compensation and the enjoyment that compensation affords in a reasonable manner. If that is indeed the expectation of the organization, I would say there needs to be additional consideration given to the player, in the form of no trade clauses, more guaranteed money, and honestly, more services provided to the player. The organization is allowed to treat the athletes as commodities, because "that's business." Well, if this is just "business," then that "business" does not extend to any responsibility by the athlete to do anything other than simply performing his duties on the field of play. The organization cannot have it both ways. It cannot simultaneously require the athlete to accept being treated like cattle or soybeans, to be used up and then discarded after their utility has diminished, while also requiring the athlete to be an "ambassador" representing the organization 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If they want tor receive the benefits of employing a human being, that expectation should extend to more humane treatment of the athlete as well.

If Kane has a brain, he would vet every sexual partner he has, not for the Blackhawks, but for himself.

 

NBC said Rocky is sad and pissed off.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Dick Allen