Cardinals interested in LaRoche?

[caulfield12]

Hahn would need to be a complete idiot to take that job.

 

There were two competing philosophies about closers.

 

The KW one was to go out and get the established guy, like a Billy Koch....ignoring the fact that Howry, Foulke, Gordon, Takatsu, Hermanson and Jenks were all inexpensive and able to get the job done pretty darned effectively.

 

We saw that trend continue with Sergio Santos, Hector Santiago and Addison Reed...shipping out pitchers from this position and continually trading them to fill in gaps (or try to) in other places. Essentially, copying the Oakland A's way of doing things, which wasn't to sink a ton of money into the closer's spot, and trade those players when they became more expensive.

 

It DEFINITELY SEEMS like a KW move to go after an elite closer like Robertson and do a slight overpay...because it's ignoring that trend which has existed since 2002-2003 with the front office acting out of desperation (just like the Dotel/Linebrink/MacDougal deals).

Edited June 29, 2015 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

There were two competing philosophies about closers.

 

The KW one was to go out and get the established guy, like a Billy Koch....ignoring the fact that Howry, Foulke, Gordon, Takatsu, Hermanson and Jenks were all inexpensive and able to get the job done pretty darned effectively.

 

We saw that trend continue with Sergio Santos, Hector Santiago and Addison Reed...shipping out pitchers from this position and continually trading them to fill in gaps (or try to) in other places. Essentially, copying the Oakland A's way of doing things, which wasn't to sink a ton of money into the closer's spot, and trade those players when they became more expensive.

 

It DEFINITELY SEEMS like a KW move to go after an elite closer like Robertson and do a slight overpay...because it's ignoring that trend which has existed since 2002-2003 with the front office out of desperation.

Bah, their bullpen was so bad last year that if they were actually going to be a competitive team they needed a major upgrade in reliability there and I think most GMs would agree with that one.

 

The problem was believing they had a roster that was remotely competitive elsewhere without assessing the risks of people not performing and without considering defense, depth.

[Dick Allen]

There were two competing philosophies about closers.

 

The KW one was to go out and get the established guy, like a Billy Koch....ignoring the fact that Howry, Foulke, Gordon, Takatsu, Hermanson and Jenks were all inexpensive and able to get the job done pretty darned effectively.

 

We saw that trend continue with Sergio Santos, Hector Santiago and Addison Reed...shipping out pitchers from this position and continually trading them to fill in gaps (or try to) in other places. Essentially, copying the Oakland A's way of doing things, which wasn't to sink a ton of money into the closer's spot, and trade those players when they became more expensive.

 

It DEFINITELY SEEMS like a KW move to go after an elite closer like Robertson and do a slight overpay...because it's ignoring that trend which has existed since 2002-2003 with the front office acting out of desperation (just like the Dotel/Linebrink/MacDougal deals).

So you mention about 6 closer acquired on the cheap by....KW, and then say signing a closer to a big money deal seems like a KW move, when he really has never done it before. I can't believe I am defending him, but where do you come up with this BS?

[caulfield12]

So you mention about 6 closer acquired on the cheap by....KW, and then say signing a closer to a big money deal seems like a KW move, when he really has never done it before. I can't believe I am defending him, but where do you come up with this BS?

 

 

You tell me, who pushed the most to sign Robertson...was it Hahn, getting KW and JR on board....or KW, pushing Hahn to get it done and after/then convincing JR?

 

We've read all the stories about how it actually took place at the winter meetings, but who was the one who pushed for the overpaid, expensive "elite" closer the most?

 

 

[Balta1701]

You tell me, who pushed the most to sign Robertson...was it Hahn, getting KW and JR on board....or KW, pushing Hahn to get it done and after/then convincing JR?

 

We've read all the stories about how it actually took place at the winter meetings, but who was the one who pushed for the overpaid, expensive "elite" closer the most?

Actually I think that was Robin Ventura but anyway.

[caulfield12]

Yes!

 

 

You're reading it wrong. KW acquired Billy Koch in 2003 so the David Robertson signing in 2015 was also Kenny.

 

 

Right.

 

KW basically had his viewpoint about what a closer should look like (more Koch/Jenks and less Foulke).

 

For the last decade, he evolved and started following the A's philosophy of pump and dump with closers, so to speak.

 

 

Now, all of a sudden, when we come off a year of bullpen struggling (same thing with 2007), we see an overreaction and over-investment in Duke/Robertson to correct for the lack of minor league development.

 

Who advocated for this more, KW or Hahn?

 

 

[caulfield12]

Actually I think that was Robin Ventura but anyway.

 

 

You might be 100% right.

 

Ventura could have gone to KW/Hahn or even mentioned to JR at one time or another last season that there was no way to "fix the bullpen" without there being established/defined roles and someone at the back-end he could go to confidently...that the team was losing confidence in its ability to close out games and "expecting bad things to happen" (not unlike now) in the 7th, 8th or 9th inning.

 

They tried to bluff their way through it when Nate Jones went down with Petricka and Belisario and the task proved to be too big.

Edited June 29, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

You might be 100% right.

 

Ventura could have gone to KW/Hahn or even mentioned to JR at one time or another last season that there was no way to "fix the bullpen" without their being defined roles and someone at the back-end he could go to confidently...that the team was losing confidence in its ability to close out games and "expecting bad things to happen" (not unlike now) in the 7th, 8th or 9th inning.

 

They tried to bluff their way through it when Nate Jones went down with Petricka and Belisario and the task proved to be too big.

Here's the story from SI. It appears the "culprit" is JR. But let's not let facts ruin some KW bashing.

 

http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/01/30/white-sox...david-robertson

 

[caulfield12]

Here's the story from SI. It appears the "culprit" is JR. But let's not let facts ruin some KW bashing.

 

http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/01/30/white-sox...david-robertson

 

Hahn and his lieutenants had their work cut out for them. To turn a team that had won 63 and 73 games, respectively, the previous two seasons and had posted the majors' third worst run differential in 2014 into a contender overnight would be no small undertaking. They’d have to be creative, and they’d have to be aggressive — and the Samardzija trade would be a start.

 

It was Reinsdorf's idea to OKAY THE SPENDING.

 

It wasn't his idea to choose Samardzija, Robertson and (eventually) Cabrera specifically.

 

From that article, it was clear that Samardzija and Robertson were the two initial targets of the off-season. But someone put them on that list in the first place, and it wasn't JR writing in ink on that infamous BIG BOARD.

 

Someone "sold" the idea of going after Samardzija and Robertson to him, just like Buddy Bell was the one who pushed for the Mark Teahen acquisition, or Marco Paddy with some of his specific Latin American targets.

Edited June 29, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Hahn and his lieutenants had their work cut out for them. To turn a team that had won 63 and 73 games, respectively, the previous two seasons and had posted the majors' third worst run differential in 2014 into a contender overnight would be no small undertaking. They’d have to be creative, and they’d have to be aggressive — and the Samardzija trade would be a start.

 

It was Reinsdorf's idea to OKAY THE SPENDING.

 

It wasn't his idea to choose Samardzija, Robertson and (eventually) Cabrera specifically.

 

From that article, it was clear that Samardzija and Robertson were the two initial targets of the off-season. But someone put them on that list in the first place, and it wasn't JR writing in ink on that infamous BIG BOARD.

I see how you ignored this:

 

“I’m a little disappointed,” Reinsdorf, the 78-year-old owner who is never one to mince words, said to the others at the summit, referring to how far his team appeared to be from contending. Reinsdorf had another message: I don’t want to hear about a rebuild. Do what you need to do to make this team a contender in 2015.

[Y2Jimmy0]

You tell me, who pushed the most to sign Robertson...was it Hahn, getting KW and JR on board....or KW, pushing Hahn to get it done and after/then convincing JR?

 

We've read all the stories about how it actually took place at the winter meetings, but who was the one who pushed for the overpaid, expensive "elite" closer the most?

 

 

Robertson actually seems more like a Hahn type than KW though. He doesn't throw hard and has tons of movement.

[caulfield12]

I see how you ignored this:

 

“I’m a little disappointed,” Reinsdorf, the 78-year-old owner who is never one to mince words, said to the others at the summit, referring to how far his team appeared to be from contending. Reinsdorf had another message: I don’t want to hear about a rebuild. Do what you need to do to make this team a contender in 2015.

 

 

Well, they should have traded for Donaldson/Grandal or Cervelli and signed Brett Anderson, Kendrys Morales and anyone not named Melky Cabrera (such as Cespedes, Aoki, Yasmani Tomas, Rasmus, etc.) to play LF.

 

Then they could have used some combination of Semien/Phegley/Bassitt/Ravelo to get a younger/cheaper closer candidate.

Edited June 29, 2015 by caulfield12

[LDF]

Hahn and his lieutenants had their work cut out for them. To turn a team that had won 63 and 73 games, respectively, the previous two seasons and had posted the majors' third worst run differential in 2014 into a contender overnight would be no small undertaking. They’d have to be creative, and they’d have to be aggressive — and the Samardzija trade would be a start.

 

It was Reinsdorf's idea to OKAY THE SPENDING.

 

It wasn't his idea to choose Samardzija, Robertson and (eventually) Cabrera specifically.

 

From that article, it was clear that Samardzija and Robertson were the two initial targets of the off-season. But someone put them on that list in the first place, and it wasn't JR writing in ink on that infamous BIG BOARD.

 

Someone "sold" the idea of going after Samardzija and Robertson to him, just like Buddy Bell was the one who pushed for the Mark Teahen acquisition, or Marco Paddy with some of his specific Latin American targets.

 

if it wasn't JR, then who was it???

[caulfield12]

KW has done different things in different times. I agree with DA here. The Sox have done both strategies (building up closers/buying closers) with varying degrees of success. To attribute an ideology to KW and acknowledge he has partaken in a different strategy more frequently in the same post is a big contradiction. It seems like you're just looking for reasons to hate on KW.

 

 

I don't hate KW, nor Hahn.

 

 

I just want to know who chose Robertson as the primary closing target, that's all.

 

If one thing is obvious, this current structure isn't working, and something HAS TO CHANGE. The end.

Edited June 29, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Robertson actually seems more like a Hahn type than KW though. He doesn't throw hard and has tons of movement.

JR wanted them to be a contender this year after being told the roster was a long way away. The guys they signed to make them better immediately and not in 2 or 3 years make sense. It has totally flopped. But whoever you think is making baseball decision, either KW, RH,BB , or JR, the fact is the boss told them to put together a good team NOW, and they did what they could. They had nothing to trade for immediate help unless it was Abreu or Sale and that was also an immediate hurt. So they had to sign free agents. LaRoche was considered a good signing. Melky was considered a perfect 2 hole hitter. Robertson was the best closer on the market. This board loved the Duke and Bonifacio signings. The Samardjiza trade seemed weird but if you are trying to win in 2015, not THAT weird. It has all pretty much gone wrong. Will it continue? Maybe, but stranger things have happened than some bounce back, even if it's next year. The Sox gave up prospects for Samardzija, but Phegley, even though he has done well, I doubt many here would say he is a long term plus major leaguer. Semien started out out, but his numbers are dropping, and if you hate players throwing the ball away, he's not your man. I know, he would be a great second baseman, yet the advanced stats , very limited, do make him out to be rather horrid there. So really, if you were a fan of a total rebuild, the draft picks are lining up for next season. You are out Semien and Phegley. You do get Ynoa and a comp pick or whatever they get for Shark. You do miss the second and third rounder this season, but historically those haven't been tremendous players, and anyone in JR's will might be out a little cash.

[ptatc]

There were two competing philosophies about closers.

 

The KW one was to go out and get the established guy, like a Billy Koch....ignoring the fact that Howry, Foulke, Gordon, Takatsu, Hermanson and Jenks were all inexpensive and able to get the job done pretty darned effectively.

 

We saw that trend continue with Sergio Santos, Hector Santiago and Addison Reed...shipping out pitchers from this position and continually trading them to fill in gaps (or try to) in other places. Essentially, copying the Oakland A's way of doing things, which wasn't to sink a ton of money into the closer's spot, and trade those players when they became more expensive.

 

It DEFINITELY SEEMS like a KW move to go after an elite closer like Robertson and do a slight overpay...because it's ignoring that trend which has existed since 2002-2003 with the front office acting out of desperation (just like the Dotel/Linebrink/MacDougal deals).

So you've confirmed that Hahn is an idiot for taking a job where he has no power and turning down jobs where he had power. since you've confirmed it, Hahn must go because he is an idiot or like ventura has no real desire to do the job.

[southsider2k5]

I think it's more of Ken Williams' ideas and Hahn went out and executed those ideas.

Too much Williams' M.O. on the last offseason. Entirely Williams' M.O. really.

If Hahn was making all of the decisions, we'd see him move in his own direction...this offseason was the same kind of moves Williams' has been making for years.

 

If Hahn wasn't on board for the direction of the organization and whatever level of freedom he got here, he would have at the very least not turned down half a dozen different chances to interview for other GM jobs.

 

To argue any differently has to paint Rick Hahn as a f***ing idiot who couldn't figure out his work environment despite working here for over a decade. Rick Hahn is here because he buys into what Kenny and Jerry are doing here. Nothing else makes any sense.

[southsider2k5]

But maybe he took it on a lesser level, BECAUSE it was the White Sox. He has those working relationships, so he took the title and the pay raise. It was something he could do for the Sox, but not Team X.

 

He had half a dozen different chances to take a job where he could have written his own story and rules if he didn't like it here. Not only did he not want the jobs, he didn't even want to give the other teams a chance to talk him into them.

[Dick Allen]

Well, they should have traded for Donaldson/Grandal or Cervelli and signed Brett Anderson, Kendrys Morales and anyone not named Melky Cabrera (such as Cespedes, Aoki, Yasmani Tomas, Rasmus, etc.) to play LF.

 

Then they could have used some combination of Semien/Phegley/Bassitt/Ravelo to get a younger/cheaper closer candidate.

 

Everyone would be a genius GM if they could tell you what they would have done in December the next June 26th. I didn't see too many complaints in the Sox sign David Robertson thread. Were you complaining then?

[southsider2k5]

You tell me, who pushed the most to sign Robertson...was it Hahn, getting KW and JR on board....or KW, pushing Hahn to get it done and after/then convincing JR?

 

We've read all the stories about how it actually took place at the winter meetings, but who was the one who pushed for the overpaid, expensive "elite" closer the most?

 

I have yet to hear a story that had Kenny Williams involved in the Robertson pursuit. I would love a link if you have seen otherwise.

[kitekrazy]

He had half a dozen different chances to take a job where he could have written his own story and rules if he didn't like it here. Not only did he not want the jobs, he didn't even want to give the other teams a chance to talk him into them.

 

I think $$$ has a lot to do with it. He was paid well as an asst. GM.

 

[Eminor3rd]

None of you have any idea who is calling the shots in the White Sox front office.

[southsider2k5]

I think $$$ has a lot to do with it. He was paid well as an asst. GM.

 

He wouldn't even interview with teams. How do you know what teams are going to offer if you won't even talk to them?

[ptatc]

None of you have any idea who is calling the shots in the White Sox front office.

Correct.

 

My guess, is it's everybody's input with Hahn having the final say. Just as they used to say it was everybody's input with KW having the final say.

[southsider2k5]

None of you have any idea who is calling the shots in the White Sox front office.

 

From the outside looking it, there is one guy who calls the shots. That is the Chairman. Everyone else works within Jerry's framework. Again, from the plentiful circumstantial evidence, both Kenny and Rick are OK with it. They both could have left if they wanted to do so at many different points.