Cardinals interested in LaRoche?

[Dick Allen]

From the outside looking it, there is one guy who calls the shots. That is the Chairman. Everyone else works within Jerry's framework. Again, from the plentiful circumstantial evidence, both Kenny and Rick are OK with it. They both could have left if they wanted to do so at many different points.

I agree with this. He might not actually select the players, but it was his call to spend some money and upgrade the talent level. The fact is, many of the people complaining about the signings weren't complaining when they happened, including the biggest complainer. And funny how those, at the time, were thought to be Hahn moves, and the second they backfired, KW's fingerprints are suddenly all over them. Considering some are complaining about the White Sox signing LaRoche, and think the White Sox should be more like the Cardinals, the title of this thread is pretty funny.

[ptatc]

From the outside looking it, there is one guy who calls the shots. That is the Chairman. Everyone else works within Jerry's framework. Again, from the plentiful circumstantial evidence, both Kenny and Rick are OK with it. They both could have left if they wanted to do so at many different points.

I thought he has always been a "hands off" owners from the players respect, except for the budget. They needed to go to him to approve over budget spending.

[ptatc]

I think $$$ has a lot to do with it. He was paid well as an asst. GM.

So he is a person who only values money and took a pay increase without any power? Does this really sound like a move JR would do and would he want that person in his organization?

[Dick Allen]

I thought he has always been a "hands off" owners from the players respect, except for the budget. They needed to go to him to approve over budget spending.

I think that still holds. Look at this offseason. According to SI, JR was disappointed upon hearing the team was a long ways away. So he said do what you can to make it a contender this year. All the signings and trades indicate that is exactly what they were doing. They signed some expensive guys but still, $14 million a year on FA is pretty middle of the road these days, so they signed several instead of trading away the few prospects they have left. This team is not as bad as they have played.

[Dick Allen]

Where has it ever been in print, on the radio, on TV, where Rick Hahn has a totally different philosophy as far as putting a baseball team together than KW/JR?

 

I would think if he did, he never would have been the GM. It's not like KW went away. It's not like JR wants to pay someone to always take the opposite stance as he does.

 

There will be differences because they aren't clones. But it is all pretty much the same.

[Balta1701]

This team is not as bad as they have played.

Perhaps the single most important thing this franchise needs to accept this offseason is this one.

 

Yes, they are. They are absolutely this bad.

 

They have a run differential that is worse than the Brewers. They have 2 people in their lineup who would start for a decent team right now and 1 of those is a DH who they ought to trade. They have a strong 1-2-3 in their rotation but one of those guys is a free agent at the end of this year. They have youth to replace the back end but turning youth into production can take time. They haven't cared at all about defense in scouting players so even if somehow the players started hitting more as they got older, they still wouldn't be able to catch or field the ball and would need a top of the league offense to offset that.

 

They are absolutely this bad. They are actually probably worse than their current record.

 

If they don't accept that, if they don't act as if that's true, then they will remain absolutely this bad next year and for years to come.

[southsider2k5]

I thought he has always been a "hands off" owners from the players respect, except for the budget. They needed to go to him to approve over budget spending.

 

I am not saying Jerry is downstairs on a daily basis in the middle of things like Steinbrenner, but he is the guy who has the final say and gives the orders. I think Kenny and Rick have a relative level of freedom within whatever limits Jerry sets, for sure. But I only have to go back to the stories about Jerry stopping Kenny from firing both Greg Walker and Ozzie Guillen at different points to know who "calls the shots".

[greg775]

Perhaps the single most important thing this franchise needs to accept this offseason is this one.

 

Yes, they are. They are absolutely this bad.

 

They have a run differential that is worse than the Brewers. They have 2 people in their lineup who would start for a decent team right now and 1 of those is a DH who they ought to trade. They have a strong 1-2-3 in their rotation but one of those guys is a free agent at the end of this year. They have youth to replace the back end but turning youth into production can take time. They haven't cared at all about defense in scouting players so even if somehow the players started hitting more as they got older, they still wouldn't be able to catch or field the ball and would need a top of the league offense to offset that.

 

They are absolutely this bad. They are actually probably worse than their current record.

 

If they don't accept that, if they don't act as if that's true, then they will remain absolutely this bad next year and for years to come.

 

Balta is right. I absolutely cannot understand why, if the Cardinals want LaRoche, he hasn't been traded yet. Get rid of him. NOW. And trade off Lexi, Melky, Shark for starters after LaRoche! Let's get on with the restocking!

[Balta1701]

Balta is right. I absolutely cannot understand why, if the Cardinals want LaRoche, he hasn't been traded yet. Get rid of him. NOW. And trade off Lexi, Melky, Shark for starters after LaRoche! Let's get on with the restocking!

For once there isn't a rush...we've got a couple weeks and who knows, some other team might have a 1b go down with an injury. Mid-July is ok to wait for.

[greg775]

For once there isn't a rush...we've got a couple weeks and who knows, some other team might have a 1b go down with an injury. Mid-July is ok to wait for.

Teams need Shark now. We can get more for these stiffs now than down the line. The season is tick, tick, ticking away.

[Balta1701]

Teams need Shark now. We can get more for these stiffs now than down the line. The season is tick, tick, ticking away.

I don't really think that's true...the trade market hasn't broken at all yet, no one has made anything resembling a solid move, and the Samardzija one in particular might not break for a while. If Cueto and Hamels are both on the market, teams might be much more willing to low-ball the White Sox on Samardzija to see if they get desperate while targeting the much better pitchers as their first options.

[ptatc]

I am not saying Jerry is downstairs on a daily basis in the middle of things like Steinbrenner, but he is the guy who has the final say and gives the orders. I think Kenny and Rick have a relative level of freedom within whatever limits Jerry sets, for sure. But I only have to go back to the stories about Jerry stopping Kenny from firing both Greg Walker and Ozzie Guillen at different points to know who "calls the shots".

I think he is heavily involved in "administration." However, i think he let's them do thier jobs with players.

[southsider2k5]

I think he is heavily involved in "administration." However, i think he let's them do thier jobs with players.

 

I have no quibble with that assessment of the situation. That is pretty consistent with what I see.

[GreenSox]

If this is true, you have to fire Hahn as well. Why would you want a person to run your organization who was stupid enough to turn down other GM jobs to take a job where he had no power. If he willingly took a job where KW was calling the shots, I don't want him in my organization.

What other GM jobs did he turn down?

Dick may be right - this is all on JR's orders. But still, to many of the acquisitions were of the Kenny Williams failed profile.

 

I agree that Robertson doesn't seem like a KW type of closer... but using real assets on relief pitchers and utility players is a KW method.

[southsider2k5]

From what I've been told. Kenny has final say, is pivotal in the planning process, future outlook and ultimately can tell Hahn no. Hahn does the day-to-day stuff, communication, targets, money allocation, transactions, contracts, etc. Bell/Haber/Fabian are the next tier. Haber works a lot with both Fabian and Hahn. Haber makes player recs and has started communicating with other teams front offices (hence his promotion to Asst. GM). Fabian heads the analytical side of things, helps with due diligence, etc. Bell is more internal and makes most of the minor league transactions as you'd expect.

 

That is great information, and makes perfect sense to me. I don't see Kenny in the process on a day to day basis, but I do see him giving final approval for most things, and being involved in certain projects (special scouting trips, etc)

[southsider2k5]

What other GM jobs did he turn down?

Dick may be right - this is all on JR's orders. But still, to many of the acquisitions were of the Kenny Williams failed profile.

 

I agree that Robertson doesn't seem like a KW type of closer... but using real assets on relief pitchers and utility players is a KW method.

 

This has been really well documented over the years.

[LDF]

I think that still holds. Look at this offseason. According to SI, JR was disappointed upon hearing the team was a long ways away. So he said do what you can to make it a contender this year. All the signings and trades indicate that is exactly what they were doing. They signed some expensive guys but still, $14 million a year on FA is pretty middle of the road these days, so they signed several instead of trading away the few prospects they have left. This team is not as bad as they have played.

 

in all the random fluff concerning what JR and the owners said or didn't didn't. for me, it is obvious that there was a extent that they, the org will spend and they stop spending. esp when it was going to get in the profit area. instead they went to cheap route.

 

so making this team a contender was based on the least expensive way and a prayer, and of course making some bad assumptions on what talent they had accumulated.

[LittleHurt05]

Partially because of what I've heard and partially what I would think, I agree with all of this.

 

Hahn knows his limits as a scout even though he has worked very hard at it early in his career with the Sox. For example, Hahn never saw Abreu hit live prior to signing him. It was Kenny's scouting report that made Reinsdorf say "whatever it takes." In other orgs, like Houston for instance, Lunhow handles all of the day to day stuff and has a prominent role in scouting Astro targets, KW covers the scouting aspect of the top tier of the FO. Hahn does most of the rest but it seems like he defers the final say in scouting to KW. They compliment each other well in that respect. One of the more interest nuggets I was told: "Kenny misses the day to day stuff."

 

Well that explains a lot given KW's non-Abreu track record. But 2005.

[LDF]

Partially because of what I've heard and partially what I would think, I agree with all of this.

 

Hahn knows his limits as a scout even though he has worked very hard at it early in his career with the Sox. For example, Hahn never saw Abreu hit live prior to signing him. It was Kenny's scouting report that made Reinsdorf say "whatever it takes." In other orgs, like Houston for instance, Lunhow handles all of the day to day stuff and has a prominent role in scouting Astro targets, KW covers the scouting aspect of the top tier of the FO. Hahn does most of the rest but it seems like he defers the final say in scouting to KW. They compliment each other well in that respect. One of the more interest nuggets I was told: "Kenny misses the day to day stuff."

 

then if true, which i believe you, then that is KW problem. he is too closely attached to the decisions making of the prospects.

 

they will need to have a 3rd person to see the whole picture and can make the necessary decision making, and that can not be the owners.

[GreenSox]

You angry boy lately. Very angry! I think Kenny is a great scout. We can't really look at things in a vacuum. When Kenny was heading player development the system was of the best in the baseball. His issue was that he thought he needed to exhaust every penny on the MLB team and got bent over by the past CBA as a result of it.

Then he also let his buddy screw up our international system badly.

Nevertheless, let Kenny clean house in our scouting and development , take it over for a while and stabilize it.

 

 

This has been really well documented over the years.

I've never seen any such documentation that he turned down a verified offer to be a GM elsewhere.

Edited June 29, 2015 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

You angry boy lately. Very angry! I think Kenny is a great scout. We can't really look at things in a vacuum. When Kenny was heading player development the system was of the best in the baseball. His issue was that he thought he needed to exhaust every penny on the MLB team and got bent over by the past CBA as a result of it.

 

Bingo. I don't think his problem is finding talent, it is being willing to put up the cash for that talent at the expense of the current ballclub. Historically he'd add the extra player do the team at the expense of drafting the most expensive/talented player available.

 

With the new CBA that really isn't an issue like it used to be, and I think you see the difference in our drafts.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I've never seen any such documentation that he turned down a verified offer to be a GM elsewhere.

 

A full offer to be GM? No. He wouldn't even take the interviews to get the point where he got a job offer.

 

He was in the process with the Cards, and two interviews in, pulled his name out. He wouldn't even bother interviewing with Houston. He wouldn't interview with Baltimore. He turned down an interview with Pittsburgh. I know there are stories of other turn downs as well.

[GreenSox]

The other risk, of course, is that since this failed so badly, JR could order them to sell everything and go Rays payroll mode.

[gatnom]

You angry boy lately. Very angry! I think Kenny is a great scout. We can't really look at things in a vacuum. When Kenny was heading player development the system was of the best in the baseball. His issue was that he thought he needed to exhaust every penny on the MLB team and got bent over by the past CBA as a result of it.

 

You almost make it sound like this wasn't his own fault.

 

 

[LDF]

Bingo. I don't think his problem is finding talent, it is being willing to put up the cash for that talent at the expense of the current ballclub. Historically he'd add the extra player do the team at the expense of drafting the most expensive/talented player available.

 

With the new CBA that really isn't an issue like it used to be, and I think you see the difference in our drafts.

 

in hindsight, i agree with what you posted. and i can see that even this past draft with some questionable picks when there were players on the board that signed a lot less than the slot in that pick.