Sick of hearing...

[LDF]

The Cardinals have massive injuries and a host of nobodys filling their lineup - yet they win. On paper our starting pitching looks superior.

 

Talent does matter but just thinking its all talent is no more enlightened then blaming it all on Robin.

 

how many games can be blamed on RV miscalculations??? yesterday game is proof, Jeff should have been removed.

[LDF]

There is one overriding constant to being a really good coach though: they all have/had really good players.

 

i disagree, they need to players to believe in what the coach, managers is preaching.

[caulfield12]

how many games can be blamed on RV miscalculations??? yesterday game is proof, Jeff should have been removed.

 

 

To go back to that point, why do teams like the Cardinals, Rays and Rangers always have multiple minor league options to fill in for major league injuries....whereas we've had no major injuries during the season, yet still aren't even close to having the ability to fill in most of the gaps in the 25 man roster from Charlotte and Birmingham.

 

 

[LDF]

To go back to that point, why do teams like the Cardinals, Rays and Rangers always have multiple minor league options to fill in for major league injuries....whereas we've had no major injuries during the season, yet still aren't even close to having the ability to fill in most of the gaps in the 25 man roster from Charlotte and Birmingham.

the miscalculation done from the owners on down.

 

 

assuming players are ready to play mlb when they are not.

assuming the starting rotation as is, will be good enuf, obviously in Hector.

assuming the cat / 3b / others will be ok

assuming the bench will not be needed as much as it is.

assuming that they did enuf to win.

[harkness99]

There is one overriding constant to being a really good coach though: they all have/had really good players.

 

 

On paper mass amounts of writers/pundits and baseball fans thought the Sox were going to be good (because of the roster/and moves).

 

Now we have a ton of guys underperforming (nearly everyone).

 

It's a little bit silly to think that has NOTHING to do with the coaching.

 

I could start giving you some rosters of some other teams with good records that do not look any better than ours.

[caulfield12]

On paper mass amounts of writers/pundits and baseball fans thought the Sox were going to be good (because of the roster/and moves).

 

Now we have a ton of guys underperforming (nearly everyone).

 

It's a little bit silly to think that has NOTHING to do with the coaching.

 

I could start giving you some rosters of some other teams with good records that do not look any better than ours.

 

 

And you can practically guarantee Farrell would be gone in Boston without 2013 to fall back on.

 

All those teams who "won the offseason" (Padres, Mariners, White Sox) are struggling. Not surprisingly, the three teams below us in the MLB overall standings (Phils/Brewers/Marlins) have all changed their managers.

 

 

[Thad Bosley]

White Sox baseball, lack of accountability and 100% loyal to bad!

 

In all honesty, it starts at the very top. Until we get a new owner, or he shocks us all by making changes in upper management, this team will continue to lack a direction and be mediocre to bad.

Irrefutable.

[shysocks]

Stop with the bulls*** reasons to fire RV, there's only one reason to fire him and that's because you can't fire 25 players. If he was making one ridiculous substitution after another, or running into outs with his stupid calls from the dugout or if guys were constantly out of position on defense then yes, by all means, the manager is leading to losses. But these guys are playing like horseshiit and that's why they're losing and that's why we want the manager fired. He's the boss. He's as close as we can get to firing some or all of the players. Motivation my ass. If you need to get motivated to play professional sports you're in the wrong career.

 

And ask yourself something: would Gillaspie, Flowers, Sanchez and Ramirez be STARTING on a winning team right now? Not likely. That's about half your lineup. I'd throw LaRoche in there if he hadn't finally started to heat up. And you might wonder whether or not Avi would be starting in RF on a winning team.

 

Fire Robin, don't fire Robin, who gives a s***. All it is is red meat to the fans and a complete "Who, me?" by management. How about firing Buddy Bell who has nothing down in the minors that's developed into MLB talent that can help right now? That'd be a nice start. And I'd take a long look at Doug Laumann too. Over 2 decades heading up scouting for the White Sox. Like what you see?

I love this post.

 

To expand - Buddy Bell's job isn't high profile enough for Rongey to have to fend off angry callers about him, but he should be first out the door.

[Y2Jimmy0]

And that's management's response to cover for Ventura.

 

That he overachieved and ALMOST won Manager of the Year in 2012.

 

The problem with this particular line of defense is that it also opens up the front office to even more questioning...if the talent level from a "near playoff" team in 2012 has degraded so badly, whose fault is that, then, precisely?

 

 

For sure. To me, the issues go back to those late Ozzie years though. From 2008-2011, this team used its already weak farm system to supplement the big league roster. There were multiple years that this team should have been "sellers" under KW/Ozzie and they hung around and just never did it. They went for it every year and took the draft and international market for granted. They weren't spending the appropriate amount of $$ in those areas. Hahn took over a barren system. I think his past few drafts have been positives and they've brought in some promising talent from the international market. I think that there is talent in the system but it is at AA and lower. They signed Abreu to a nice deal and he ended up being a superstar type hitter. They have a #1, and #2 starter locked up cheap for years. They didn't want to waste those years and they decided to take a shot this year. It backfired. They'll trade Shark, Ramirez, and maybe Duke. And then they'll try to win again in 2016. It's just what this organization does. At least the system is being fed finally though. I'd do more to take advantage of the international market but they are spending their full allotment on the draft and it will bear fruit in time. It was just neglected for so long that they find themselves in the immediate mess that they are in now.

[caulfield12]

For sure. To me, the issues go back to those late Ozzie years though. From 2008-2011, this team used its already weak farm system to supplement the big league roster. There were multiple years that this team should have been "sellers" under KW/Ozzie and they hung around and just never did it. They went for it every year and took the draft and international market for granted. They weren't spending the appropriate amount of $$ in those areas. Hahn took over a barren system. I think his past few drafts have been positives and they've brought in some promising talent from the international market. I think that there is talent in the system but it is at AA and lower. They signed Abreu to a nice deal and he ended up being a superstar type hitter. They have a #1, and #2 starter locked up cheap for years. They didn't want to waste those years and they decided to take a shot this year. It backfired. They'll trade Shark, Ramirez, and maybe Duke. And then they'll try to win again in 2016. It's just what this organization does. At least the system is being fed finally though. I'd do more to take advantage of the international market but they are spending their full allotment on the draft and it will bear fruit in time. It was just neglected for so long that they find themselves in the immediate mess that they are in now.

 

 

Pretty much. The only other way around it is huge spending on 23 and older Cubans and/or the Asian market.

 

However, with the success of Kang with the Pirates, you'll start to see more openness as far as the Korean leagues, imo. He's the second guy after Choo (recently) to make an impact (not counting Hee Sop Choi and Chan Ho Park).

 

The White Sox went to Takatsu and Iguchi and then seemingly abandoned that market, for whatever reasons.

 

 

My biggest problem is that I'm just not convinced Ventura and KW are the right leaders for this new generation of baseball....I still think they're too traditional/old school.

 

That said, the White Sox had the biggest gain in defensive shifts from 2013 to 2014....they went from 73 to 534 in one season. No other team in the 2014 Top 13 was under 249 shifts in 2013, so that has been a big organizational change.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ptatc]

It is not the same. As you state, we need a paycheck. Most of them will get one regardless of how they perform. If you have a few bad months, you probably won't survive in your job. Many of them since the age of 22 or so have been doing very well financially. So it is a very different lifestyle than the average person has.

Then again, when we screw up at work, it hopefully does not get the same publicity as when they screw up. Imagine if you screw up at work tomorrow and your wife and kids get berated by the neighbors in your driveway on Tuesday.

This is true. Most of us don't miss all of our kids little league games, don't get to be there on their birthdays. We don't need to live away from our families for 8 months of the year. It's a pretty easy life for them because of the money.

[caulfield12]

This is true. Most of us don't miss all of our kids little league games, don't get to be there on their birthdays. We don't need to live away from our families for 8 months of the year. It's a pretty easy life for them because of the money.

 

 

OTOH, with the money involved getting bigger and bigger, it's MUCH easier for those players and families to be together on the road for part of spring training (schools have breaks) and for at least half of the time during the summer.

 

Sure, there are 81 road games, but with the money being what it is, even then....it's not an insurmountable obstacle for families to spend time together during summer vacation as well.

 

Look at the situation with Mark Buehrle and his dogs...complicated, but not insurmountable. There's always a solution when millions of dollars are involved.

[ptatc]

OTOH, with the money involved getting bigger and bigger, it's MUCH easier for those players and families to be together on the road for part of spring training (schools have breaks) and for at least half of the time during the summer.

 

Sure, there are 81 road games, but with the money being what it is, even then....it's not an insurmountable obstacle for families to spend time together during summer vacation as well.

 

Look at the situation with Mark Buehrle and his dogs...complicated, but not insurmountable. There's always a solution when millions of dollars are involved.

The solutions are still very few. The families don't travel very often as no kids do very well leaving every 3 days and they can't travel with the team. Most of the players do not make the"millions" Don't forget about the February and March of Spring Training where the kids are in school and can't leave and neither can their fathers. don't forget they also started this in the minors as well.

 

Baseball is not a lifestyle that is easy on a family. It is very difficult to make it work. If you value money over everything else and think it can make it work, you're right for some. However for many it doesn't. Just because they make alot of money doesn't make it an easy life. Their actual life is much more difficult than the average person. That is why many people including me got out of it.

[elrockinMT]

I'm sick of hearing how RV is not a good motivator. These are professional athletes who got to where they are by being motivated. They don't need someone else to motivate them.

 

 

I think your comments are very valid. I also disagree that RV is not held in high regard by his players. I remember omplaints about Ozzie and his style of managing and RV is probably about a 180 from Ozzie. Now we complain about him. Professional ballplayers have pride in how they perform. I am sure none are happy with what they have shown so far. A team effort means a team effort in motivation also.

[Chicago White Sox]

I love this post.

 

To expand - Buddy Bell's job isn't high profile enough for Rongey to have to fend off angry callers about him, but he should be first out the door.

Rongey had him on White Sox Weekly this Saturday and my god does he sound clueless. He literally offered no insights into any of our minor leaguers, but rather spit out high-level nonsense like "a lot of these guys can't do two things at once". He seems like one of those guys that pretends to have all the answers but simply spews a bunch of BS. Without question, Buddy Bell should be the first one to go if we shake up this organization.

[caulfield12]

The solutions are still very few. The families don't travel very often as no kids do very well leaving every 3 days and they can't travel with the team. Most of the players do not make the"millions" Don't forget about the February and March of Spring Training where the kids are in school and can't leave and neither can their fathers. don't forget they also started this in the minors as well.

 

Baseball is not a lifestyle that is easy on a family. It is very difficult to make it work. If you value money over everything else and think it can make it work, you're right for some. However for many it doesn't. Just because they make alot of money doesn't make it an easy life. Their actual life is much more difficult than the average person. That is why many people including me got out of it.

 

Agreed, that's why I gave up on minor league baseball after two seasons...it was taking my enjoyment away from the sport I loved.

 

While in theory, the idea of doing what you love works (sometimes), it's hard to have the patience to fight for those 8-12 years and still not be sure you're going to end up in the destination in professional sports that makes all the sacrifices in terms of family/friends/social life/free time/travelling worthwhile.

[caulfield12]

Rongey had him on White Sox Weekly this Saturday and my god does he sound clueless. He literally offered no insights into any of our minor leaguers, but rather spit out high-level nonsense like "a lot of these guys can't do two things at once". He seems like one of those guys that pretends to have all the answers but simply spews a bunch of BS. Without question, Buddy Bell should be the first one to go if we shake up this organization.

 

http://www.theheckler.com/2011/04/20/white...stupid-callers/

 

I'm not sure whether to laugh about stuff like this or feel that it's ridiculous we're supposed to feel sorry for him?

[LDF]

Rongey had him on White Sox Weekly this Saturday and my god does he sound clueless. He literally offered no insights into any of our minor leaguers, but rather spit out high-level nonsense like "a lot of these guys can't do two things at once". He seems like one of those guys that pretends to have all the answers but simply spews a bunch of BS. Without question, Buddy Bell should be the first one to go if we shake up this organization.

 

he wasn't clueless, or had no ideas to the systems.

 

he was given marching orders not to answer the truth. he plain and simply lied by not answering the question but to misdirect them.

 

that was a basic politician way of answering the questions.

 

does anyone really think he will go on there and say that the org screwed up???

[southsider2k5]

http://www.theheckler.com/2011/04/20/white...stupid-callers/

 

I'm not sure whether to laugh about stuff like this or feel that it's ridiculous we're supposed to feel sorry for him?

 

It is the Heckler, so hopefully you are laughing at it.

[kitekrazy]

Pretty much. The only other way around it is huge spending on 23 and older Cubans and/or the Asian market.

 

However, with the success of Kang with the Pirates, you'll start to see more openness as far as the Korean leagues, imo. He's the second guy after Choo (recently) to make an impact (not counting Hee Sop Choi and Chan Ho Park).

 

The White Sox went to Takatsu and Iguchi and then seemingly abandoned that market, for whatever reasons.

 

My biggest problem is that I'm just not convinced Ventura and KW are the right leaders for this new generation of baseball....I still think they're too traditional/old school.

 

That said, the White Sox had the biggest gain in defensive shifts from 2013 to 2014....they went from 73 to 534 in one season. No other team in the 2014 Top 13 was under 249 shifts in 2013, so that has been a big organizational change.

 

Asian players seem to know the game better with fundamentals but it seems some of them don't last as long in MLB. Cubans don't seem as fundamentally sound at least for the Sox.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

I keep coming back to this - it's not about whether Robin should be fired for doing something wrong.

 

It's that Robin is doing absolutely NOTHING of value in his current position.

 

I can't come up with a reason why we wouldn't replace him.

[LDF]

I keep coming back to this - it's not about whether Robin should be fired for doing something wrong.

 

It's that Robin is doing absolutely NOTHING of value in his current position.

 

I can't come up with a reason why we wouldn't replace him.

 

it is that he is out of his element. all ex players can not be coaches / managers.

 

and try as he may, RV did try to do the job.

[The Ginger Kid]

So help me out here, since 2006 here are the players I came up with that were drafted by the White Sox and played any appreciable amount of time with the big league team. I may be missing some...and of course it may not be fair to not include minor league players who were traded for, but the player development picture remains pretty bleak in my opinion. I left Frank off intentionally.

 

POSITION PLAYERS

Crede

Iguchi*

Anderson

Fields

Owens

Getz

Sweeney

Stewart

Andy Gonzalez

Beckham

Viciedo*

Ramirez*

Morel

Escobar

Jordan Danks

Gimenez

Phegley

Semien

Wilkins

Abreu*

 

 

There are a lot more pitchers drafted that the Sox have had success with, like Buehrle, Hudson, McCarthy, Richards and Sale. And like I said, when minor league trades are factored in, the likes of Garland, Jenks, Danks and Cotts. But when it comes to position players, I just don't see it, even with minor league trades. The biggest names might be Flowers and Gillaspie.

 

To me that seems like a real dearth of quality talent drafted and developed into successful, consistent contributors. Crede's the only one who was an All-Star who didn't play pro ball before coming to the Sox (like the cubans).

 

Looking at some more notable names drafted by other teams in our division over that time...

 

CLE

VMart

Peralta

Kipnis

Chisenhall

 

DET

Granderson

Avila

Raburn

Dirks

Kelly

Castellanos

 

MIN

Mauer

Morneau

Hunter

Cuddyer

Kubel

(I'm going to stop there because it's ridiculous)

 

KC

why bother - it's pretty obvious

 

The other teams in the division have also done a helluva lot more with minor league trades if you factor in those. It's not even close.

 

So blast away - am I being unfair? Leaving off obvious names that destroy this amateur analysis?

Edited June 29, 2015 by The Ginger Kid

[LDF]

So help me out here, since 2006 here are the players I came up with that were drafted by the White Sox and played any appreciable amount of time with the big league team. I may be missing some...and of course it may not be fair to not include minor league players who were traded for, but the player development picture remains pretty bleak in my opinion. I left Frank off intentionally.

 

POSITION PLAYERS

Crede

Iguchi*

Anderson

Fields

Owens

Getz

Sweeney

Stewart

Andy Gonzalez

Beckham

Viciedo*

Ramirez*

Morel

Escobar

Jordan Danks

Gimenez

Phegley

Semien

Wilkins

Abreu*

 

 

There are a lot more pitchers drafted that the Sox have had success with, like Buehrle, Hudson, McCarthy, Richards and Sale. And like I said, when minor league trades are factored in, the likes of Garland, Jenks, Danks and Cotts. But when it comes to position players, I just don't see it, even with minor league trades. The biggest names might be Flowers and Gillaspie.

 

To me that seems like a real dearth of quality talent drafted and developed into successful, consistent contributors. Crede's the only one who was an All-Star who didn't play pro ball before coming to the Sox (like the cubans).

 

Looking at some more notable names drafted by other teams in our division over that time...

 

CLE

VMart

Peralta

Kipnis

Chisenhall

 

DET

Granderson

Avila

Raburn

Dirks

Kelly

Castellanos

 

MIN

Mauer

Morneau

Hunter

Cuddyer

Kubel

(I'm going to stop there because it's ridiculous)

 

KC

why bother - it's pretty obvious

 

The other teams in the division have also done a helluva lot more with minor league trades if you factor in those. It's not even close.

 

So blast away - am I being unfair? Leaving off obvious names that destroy this amateur analysis?

 

with all due respect, i made the strike thru, based on what the timeline you are using, 2006. and the cubans were not drafted but added thru fa's, again not within what you are saying.

 

but as you said, with the strike out players, this paint even more of a dismal picture of the state of the org....... again, i will add, who is at fault..... not KW nor Hahn.

Edited June 29, 2015 by LDF

[harkness99]

I think your comments are very valid. I also disagree that RV is not held in high regard by his players. I remember omplaints about Ozzie and his style of managing and RV is probably about a 180 from Ozzie. Now we complain about him. Professional ballplayers have pride in how they perform. I am sure none are happy with what they have shown so far. A team effort means a team effort in motivation also.

 

Hearing that the players "have a high regard for the manager" is usually a sign that the manager is losing.

 

I never hear about players "having a high regard " for...

 

Bill Belicheck, Phil Jackson, Mike K... not even going to spell his name from Duke, Tony Larussa... not saying players don't say anything good about them, but its neither here nor there...

 

I could go on forever but Robin being a nice guy... which he really is a nice guy... means nothing, nor does it matter if the players hold him in high regard.

 

Pretty much when you are losing you better know that the players to blame themselves but also look at the coaches around them and make some conclusions.

 

It's a simple question to answer:

 

What has Robin done to make things better? Hahn tried and failed which is why I don't blame him as much in some respects.

 

KW im on the fence about to fall to the wrong side also.

Edited June 29, 2015 by harkness