harkness99 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 02:06 PM) So help me out here, since 2006 here are the players I came up with that were drafted by the White Sox and played any appreciable amount of time with the big league team. I may be missing some...and of course it may not be fair to not include minor league players who were traded for, but the player development picture remains pretty bleak in my opinion. I left Frank off intentionally. POSITION PLAYERS Crede Iguchi* Anderson Fields Owens Getz Sweeney Stewart Andy Gonzalez Beckham Viciedo* Ramirez* Morel Escobar Jordan Danks Gimenez Phegley Semien Wilkins Abreu* There are a lot more pitchers drafted that the Sox have had success with, like Buehrle, Hudson, McCarthy, Richards and Sale. And like I said, when minor league trades are factored in, the likes of Garland, Jenks, Danks and Cotts. But when it comes to position players, I just don't see it, even with minor league trades. The biggest names might be Flowers and Gillaspie. To me that seems like a real dearth of quality talent drafted and developed into successful, consistent contributors. Crede's the only one who was an All-Star who didn't play pro ball before coming to the Sox (like the cubans). Looking at some more notable names drafted by other teams in our division over that time... CLE VMart Peralta Kipnis Chisenhall DET Granderson Avila Raburn Dirks Kelly Castellanos MIN Mauer Morneau Hunter Cuddyer Kubel (I'm going to stop there because it's ridiculous) KC why bother - it's pretty obvious The other teams in the division have also done a helluva lot more with minor league trades if you factor in those. It's not even close. So blast away - am I being unfair? Leaving off obvious names that destroy this amateur analysis? Minnesota and KC look good.. the rest look just as crappy as the White Sox or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (harkness @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 05:11 PM) Hearing that the players "have a high regard for the manager" is usually a sign that the manager is losing. I never hear about players "having a high regard " for... Bill Belicheck, Phil Jackson, Mike K... not even going to spell his name from Duke, Tony Larussa... not saying players don't say anything good about them, but its neither here nor there... I could go on forever but Robin being a nice guy... which he really is a nice guy... means nothing, nor does it matter if the players hold him in high regard. Pretty much when you are losing you better know that the players to blame themselves but also look at the coaches around them and make some conclusions. It's a simple question to answer: What has Robin done to make things better? Hahn tried and failed which is why I don't blame him as much in some respects. KW im on the fence about to fall to the wrong side also. Hahn tried and failed but you don't blame him as much??? Not sure how you are separating the fact that it looks like both Robin and Hahn failed their jobs. Hahn loaded the roster with players w/o any regard for defense. His plan was to start the season w Flowers, Johnson, Avi, Gillaspie, Abreu and Melky????That is 6 below average defenders and I guess he didn't think that Alexei may have been slipping. Did he think Robin was going to take them and turn them into better fielders??? Hahn gave Robin garbage and he found a way to make it even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (harkness @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 03:13 PM) Minnesota and KC look good.. the rest look just as crappy as the White Sox or worse. Almost the entire Minnesota starting 9 is now homegrown. Of course, that's not entirely surprising with Terry Ryan back in the GM chair. Buxton, if he can stay healthy, is a future superstar (ceiling-wise), and they've got 2 more Top 25-35 guys in Sano and Berrios. Cleveland has a much deeper and stronger connection to Latin America right now, with Francisco Lindor being the prime example, but they've also discovered the likes of Yan Gomes (Brazil) and Carlos Santana, to name just a few. Their newest 3B is also a Latin player, internally-developed, and they had Ramirez at SS, but he didn't hit well enough to hold that position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I am surprised there hasn't been a "....if AJ was on the team...." thread yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (Charlie Haeger's Knuckles @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 08:15 PM) I am surprised there hasn't been a "....if AJ was on the team...." thread yet. Catchers make good managers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 07:03 PM) Hahn tried and failed but you don't blame him as much??? Not sure how you are separating the fact that it looks like both Robin and Hahn failed their jobs. Hahn loaded the roster with players w/o any regard for defense. His plan was to start the season w Flowers, Johnson, Avi, Gillaspie, Abreu and Melky????That is 6 below average defenders and I guess he didn't think that Alexei may have been slipping. Did he think Robin was going to take them and turn them into better fielders??? Hahn gave Robin garbage and he found a way to make it even worse. Most people thought what Hahn did was going to make the sox contenders... ALOT of people And not just fans... hall of fame baseball players/writers ect. So we can look at it now with hindsight... but most people thought Hahn made good moves. I did also... not going to change that now because it hasn't worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jun 30, 2015 -> 01:51 AM) Catchers make good managers. You teed it up there for me. I LOVE AJP and I think he'd be worth a shot as manager if we have to go the former Sox player route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 02:06 PM) So help me out here, since 2006 here are the players I came up with that were drafted by the White Sox and played any appreciable amount of time with the big league team. I may be missing some...and of course it may not be fair to not include minor league players who were traded for, but the player development picture remains pretty bleak in my opinion. I left Frank off intentionally. There are a lot more pitchers drafted that the Sox have had success with, like Buehrle, Hudson, McCarthy, Richards and Sale. And like I said, when minor league trades are factored in, the likes of Garland, Jenks, Danks and Cotts. But when it comes to position players, I just don't see it, even with minor league trades. The biggest names might be Flowers and Gillaspie. Notable pitchers you left out: Hector Santiago Nate Jones Jake Petricka Addison Reed I think an important thing to note is that since 2000. Here are the position players taken in the top 15, the first half of the first round. Joe Borchard 2000, 15 Brian Anderson 2003, 15 Gordon Beckham 2008, 8 Courtney Hawkins 2012, 13 That's 4 in 16 years. They have tended to draft pitchers first, and they have not had high draft picks until the last 2 years (Rodon, Fulmer) other than Beckham. They have not been great. They have also not had the opportunity to draft the top talent. The Royals for example got Butler #14, Gordon #2, Moustakas #2, Hosmer #3. That's what can happen if your team stinks for 20 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 10:38 PM) You teed it up there for me. I LOVE AJP and I think he'd be worth a shot as manager if we have to go the former Sox player route. Teed it up for me as well. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 10:41 PM) Teed it up for me as well. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Not good at pitch framing, haha. Seriously, that would be a clubhouse where it might work for 2-3 months, but he doesn't have the right type of personality for managing in today's environment. In the end, he's better off in broadcasting. Sandy Alomar, Jr., or Joel Skinner or even McEwing would be much better choices. Parent was a catcher as well, but haven't seen anything to be extremely impressed from his tenure with the organization. Anything besides Buddy Bell would be a step in the right direction. No to Konerko, Thome, Rowand, DJ...and Steve Stone is too comfortably situated from a financial standpoint to do anything but front office work if he was to leave the broadcasting booth. That might be one of the problems for Ventura...being too comfortable, in the sense that his family will still be set for life no matter how long his tenure as a manager lasts, compared to someone like a Clint Hurdle who didn't make nearly enough as a player (and with pensions now, it's QUITE comfortable) to set up both his children and grandchildren for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 08:18 AM) And that's management's response to cover for Ventura. That he overachieved and ALMOST won Manager of the Year in 2012. The problem with this particular line of defense is that it also opens up the front office to even more questioning...if the talent level from a "near playoff" team in 2012 has degraded so badly, whose fault is that, then, precisely? The 2012 team featured: A career year for Pierzynski. 27 home runs, .827 OPS The final year of vintage Konerko. .857 OPS The final year of excellent Rios, .850 OPS DeAza's best full season, 2.5 WAR an in-season trade for YOUK!, .771 OPS in 80 games w/ White Sox Tank Viciedo's best season, 1.0 WAR Most improved Adam Dunn, 41 HR .800 OPS NONE of those players ever reached those heights again. Most not even close, 4 are not playing major league baseball now. You also got standard issue, non-crater seasons from Alexei and Gordon, something Alexei might not be capable of anymore. As Hahn has stated many times, they knew they'd have to shift away from that old core and rebuild at some point soon. And the team showed them when the next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 11:51 PM) Not good at pitch framing, haha. Seriously, that would be a clubhouse where it might work for 2-3 months, but he doesn't have the right type of personality for managing in today's environment. In the end, he's better off in broadcasting. Sandy Alomar, Jr., or Joel Skinner or even McEwing would be much better choices. Parent was a catcher as well, but haven't seen anything to be extremely impressed from his tenure with the organization. Anything besides Buddy Bell would be a step in the right direction. No to Konerko, Thome, Rowand, DJ...and Steve Stone is too comfortably situated from a financial standpoint to do anything but front office work if he was to leave the broadcasting booth. That might be one of the problems for Ventura...being too comfortable, in the sense that his family will still be set for life no matter how long his tenure as a manager lasts, compared to someone like a Clint Hurdle who didn't make nearly enough as a player (and with pensions now, it's QUITE comfortable) to set up both his children and grandchildren for life. He doesn't have the right personality for anyone to like him enough to offer him the job. Alomar or Skinner would be my choices from your list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Jun 29, 2015 -> 11:03 PM) The 2012 team featured: A career year for Pierzynski. 27 home runs, .827 OPS The final year of vintage Konerko. .857 OPS The final year of excellent Rios, .850 OPS DeAza's best full season, 2.5 WAR an in-season trade for YOUK!, .771 OPS in 80 games w/ White Sox Tank Viciedo's best season, 1.0 WAR Most improved Adam Dunn, 41 HR .800 OPS NONE of those players ever reached those heights again. Most not even close, 4 are not playing major league baseball now. You also got standard issue, non-crater seasons from Alexei and Gordon, something Alexei might not be capable of anymore. As Hahn has stated many times, they knew they'd have to shift away from that old core and rebuild at some point soon. And the team showed them when the next year. Yeah, Quintana (as a rookie) for most of that season pitched like one of the best pitchers in baseball...out of seemingly nowhere. Reed, Jones and Santiago more or less held their own...along with a cast of 8-9 forgettable rookies and journeymen in the bullpen. It was definitely an older core...it was pretty much a comment to play "devil's advocate" with all this back and forth going on about who's to blame for these last three seasons. We'll probably never have a good answer, anymore than most fans are satisfied with that prevailing argument that the "Rowand/Everett leadership vacuum" led directly to the 2nd half collapse in 2006 and complete disaster in 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Jun 30, 2015 -> 05:03 AM) The 2012 team featured: A career year for Pierzynski. 27 home runs, .827 OPS The final year of vintage Konerko. .857 OPS The final year of excellent Rios, .850 OPS DeAza's best full season, 2.5 WAR an in-season trade for YOUK!, .771 OPS in 80 games w/ White Sox Tank Viciedo's best season, 1.0 WAR Most improved Adam Dunn, 41 HR .800 OPS NONE of those players ever reached those heights again. Most not even close, 4 are not playing major league baseball now. You also got standard issue, non-crater seasons from Alexei and Gordon, something Alexei might not be capable of anymore. As Hahn has stated many times, they knew they'd have to shift away from that old core and rebuild at some point soon. And the team showed them when the next year. i really can't believe i will post something positive on KW, but it is the truth. i do not hate him that i will over look the truth to prove a point. wasn't there a article on KW, and a discussion, his version with the sox owners, which lead up to this season. didn't he go to the owners and asked about breaking up the team and start on a rebuild. i believe the owners was against it and thought the team, will a few more additions can make another run at the WS?? if stated correctly, this was the best results that team achieved, sad but it is true. the end results were the contracts that would burden the team for several more yrs. so in essence, this was a by product of a familiarity / friendship that the owner had with KW. KW as gm should have stood his grounds and really make the point. KW didn't help anyone by being a friend instead of an employee with the responsibilities that came with the GM position. i still think this is still happening. but then again, what in hell do i know??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Jun 30, 2015 -> 01:03 AM) The 2012 team featured: A career year for Pierzynski. 27 home runs, .827 OPS The final year of vintage Konerko. .857 OPS The final year of excellent Rios, .850 OPS DeAza's best full season, 2.5 WAR an in-season trade for YOUK!, .771 OPS in 80 games w/ White Sox Tank Viciedo's best season, 1.0 WAR Most improved Adam Dunn, 41 HR .800 OPS NONE of those players ever reached those heights again. Most not even close, 4 are not playing major league baseball now. You also got standard issue, non-crater seasons from Alexei and Gordon, something Alexei might not be capable of anymore. As Hahn has stated many times, they knew they'd have to shift away from that old core and rebuild at some point soon. And the team showed them when the next year. My guess it will turn out like Beckham's hot streak, but De Aza is tearing up in Boston both w bat and glove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jun 30, 2015 -> 06:36 AM) My guess it will turn out like Beckham's hot streak, but De Aza is tearing up in Boston both w bat and glove. Just incredibly streaky...did that in the beginning with the O's as well last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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